Feminist ideals behind birth control

[notredame_999]

Its unbelievable to me that so many catholics in this country are committing sac-religious communions by using ABC and not going to confession. What is even more amazing is that very few priests in the typical novous ordo american parish remind them of it. However, I think the root cause of this is feminism. By that I mean young women, even catholic women, think they should have dual roles as both wife/mother as well as having a career and bringing in some income. So what has happened is that the catholic woman has compromised by restricting themselves to 1-3 children (give or take) so they can achieve this dual role. Considering that almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities, isn’t the Church somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset?

 

[puzzleannie]

Its unbelievable to me that so many catholics in this country are committing sac-religious communions by using ABC and not going to confession. What is even more amazing is that very few priests in the typical novous ordo american parish remind them of it. However, I think the root cause of this is feminism. By that I mean young women, even catholic women, think they should have dual roles as both wife/mother as well as having a career and bringing in some income.

you had me up until this assertion. feminism does not equal “careers for women”. A woman can be a good wife and mother and also hold down an outside job, and remain a fully committed obedient Catholic. I have done it so have thousands of others. One, Gianna Molla, even became a saint this way. Bear in mind many working mothers are doing so because a)their husbands are not earning a living wage (my husband was not able to support a family on what the Catholic school paid him, we qualified for food stamps) or b) they have been abandoned by the man who should be supporting their children. This judgement is simply not borne out by facts. there are many reasons women use ABC (or NFP) and a broad generalization is not valid. Feminism covers a wide range of political and social activism, much of it does not require women to abandon traditional roles or to sin, some has good motives. Don’t forget some early feminists were among the first to demand laws against abortion.

 

[notredame_999]

Yes I agree with you that sometimes a mother working is necessary because the husband cannot bring in enough income to support the family. But couldn’t it also be said that part of the reason why men’s wages have gone down is because they are competing with women? Like I said, I have no problem with a working mother as long as she realizes that the role of wife/mother come before the career; they are not equal roles.

 

[ConstantineTG]

you had me up until this assertion. feminism does not equal “careers for women”. A woman can be a good wife and mother and also hold down an outside job, and remain a fully committed obedient Catholic. I have done it so have thousands of others. One, Gianna Molla, even became a saint this way. Bear in mind many working mothers are doing so because a)their husbands are not earning a living wage (my husband was not able to support a family on what the Catholic school paid him, we qualified for food stamps) or b) they have been abandoned by the man who should be supporting their children. This judgement is simply not borne out by facts. there are many reasons women use ABC (or NFP) and a broad generalization is not valid. Feminism covers a wide range of political and social activism, much of it does not require women to abandon traditional roles or to sin, some has good motives. Don’t forget some early feminists were among the first to demand laws against abortion.

I agree. Also today’s world its set up that both husband and wife need to work to be able to afford anything. Sure, my wife can stay at home if we bought a modest condo instead of a house. But buying a small space is not conducive to raising a family. But buying a home with space for a family would mean both of you would have to work. And the silly think about it is part of that income would just go to child care.

 

[bkayw]

35 years ago, I never heard about the Catholic position on abortion, contraception, etc. I had a vague understanding. Which, as I aged, it became more and more vague.

As a revert, I’m discouraged to see that that is still the case within the Catholic Church. I noticed it even at RCIA. At the RCIA dinner prior to the ceremonies, a female convert was lamenting the fact that her insurance was no longer going to cover her birth control pills. She went on to say that she refused to have another child because she and her husbands’ wages wouldn’t support a second child.

I tried to guide her toward looking into NFP and that was quickly shot down with her telling me about her Mom’s experience with NFP 35 years ago, to which I said there were major improvements using the system now.

I’m single celibate and was really hoping that one married women at the table would join in and help.

Complete silence.

So, later I brought the table conversation to the attention of the RCIA instructor. She told me that the parish had scheduled one conference with a NFP instuctor and NO ONE showed up.

The RCIA instructor and I continued talking and I brought up the abortifacient properties of many ABCs and she replied saying that not all allow the combining of the egg and sperm. To which got me wondering if this is how Catholic women are justifying their use of ABCs.

 

[Rence]

Its unbelievable to me that so many catholics in this country are committing sac-religious communions by using ABC and not going to confession. What is even more amazing is that very few priests in the typical novous ordo american parish remind them of it. However, I think the root cause of this is feminism. By that I mean young women, even catholic women, think they should have dual roles as both wife/mother as well as having a career and bringing in some income. So what has happened is that the catholic woman has compromised by restricting themselves to 1-3 children (give or take) so they can achieve this dual role. Considering that almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities, isn’t the Church somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset?

I don’t see anything wrong with a woman being a wife/mother and holding down a job for which she spent years preparing by going to school. In addition, some women don’t feel it worth their sanity to be responsible for more than 1-3 children, while others are perfectly fine with having 5-10.

I don’t understand what you mean by saying the Church is somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset because almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities. Are you suggesting they restrict female admissions so that women are kept uneducated and without any outside-of-the-home skills?

 

[notredame_999]

I don’t see anything wrong with a woman being a wife/mother and holding down a job for which she spent years preparing by going to school. In addition, some women don’t feel it worth their sanity to be responsible for more than 1-3 children, while others are perfectly fine with having 5-10.

What are you saying? That its ok for a woman to limit herself to 1-3 children unless there is a grave reason? You do realize that its a mortal sin right?

I don’t understand what you mean by saying the Church is somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset because almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities. Are you suggesting they restrict female admissions so that women are kept uneducated and without any outside-of-the-home skills?

No i didn’t say that. What I mean by that is catholic colleges and universities should remind these women that their PRIMARY role in the vocation in marriage IS NOT BEING A CAREER WOMAN but being a wife and mother. Now if they have a career fine, but that is not their primary role. Thats all I’m saying. I just made this post because a lot of ppl. on thse forums blast couples who use ABC, but in order to stop the trend of ABC we must re-define marriage itself which means re-defining the roles of husbands/fathers and wives/mothers.

 

[notredame_999]

I don’t see anything wrong with a woman being a wife/mother and holding down a job for which she spent years preparing by going to school. In addition, some women don’t feel it worth their sanity to be responsible for more than 1-3 children, while others are perfectly fine with having 5-10.
QUOTE]

And you think this is good? You do realize that the couple who limits themselves to 1-3 children unless there is a GRAVE reason is in mortal sin don’t you? They could be sent to HELL for it? I get emotional about this because my parents only had 3 children and they dont really feel guilty about it at all…and they show up to mass on Christmas, Easter, and funerals…and they don’t go to confession. I am concerned about their eternal salvation…but I am also sickened by the liberal jesuit novus ordo parish they went to for years headed by feminine priests who taught about how great humanity was and “lets just all hold hands” without any mention of mortal sin or hell. If this isn’t apostasy at the top predicted by Our Lady of Fatima I don’t know what is.

 

[Rence]

Rence;7028158:

I don’t see anything wrong with a woman being a wife/mother and holding down a job for which she spent years preparing by going to school. In addition, some women don’t feel it worth their sanity to be responsible for more than 1-3 children, while others are perfectly fine with having 5-10.
QUOTE]

And you think this is good? You do realize that the couple who limits themselves to 1-3 children unless there is a GRAVE reason is in mortal sin don’t you? They could be sent to HELL for it? I get emotional about this because my parents only had 3 children and they dont really feel guilty about it at all…and they show up to mass on Christmas, Easter, and funerals…and they don’t go to confession. I am concerned about their eternal salvation…but I am also sickened by the liberal jesuit novus ordo parish they went to for years headed by feminine priests who taught about how great humanity was and “lets just all hold hands” without any mention of mortal sin or hell. If this isn’t apostasy at the top predicted by Our Lady of Fatima I don’t know what is.

Yes, I think this is good for many families. Very good.

“GRAVE” is relative and unique to each family. I don’t think I would be capable of running after 3 children all day whether I had a job outside the home or not. And I know plenty of people who shouldn’t have had more than one. Two would probably be my limit but I can’t say for sure until I get there. The mental, emotional and physical ability of the parents to care for children is a GRAVE consideration. Therefore if someone has 2-3 children and knows they would not be able to provide for more, it would be in the best interest of them, their children and their whole family to hold off on having more children. It’s selfish to continue having children when you know you can’t provide for them,. Children aren’t numbers. There is responsibility involved in having more children.

And BTW, no offense, but I think it’s pretty ****** for you to judge your parents like that. Your parents may not have anything to feel guilty about. Are you sure you know every little minute detail about their marriage, and are in the position to ascertain whether their immortal souls are in jeapordy just because they didn’t keep having children.

 

[Rence]

No i didn’t say that. What I mean by that is catholic colleges and universities should remind these women that their PRIMARY role in the vocation in marriage IS NOT BEING A CAREER WOMAN but being a wife and mother. Now if they have a career fine, but that is not their primary role. Thats all I’m saying. I just made this post because a lot of ppl. on thse forums blast couples who use ABC, but in order to stop the trend of ABC we must re-define marriage itself which means re-defining the roles of husbands/fathers and wives/mothers.

How are they going to remind them of that while graduating them with career-oriented degrees like medical, nursing, law, engineering, etc degrees? How does one graduate a woman with any degree and then remind her to put it on the back burner because some people think she doesn’t deserve to actually use that degree in her career?

Thankfully, I don’t think that will happen again. Our society (and our economy) will not let that happen. Women deserve to be happy in their chosen careers just like men, and not be forced to stay home if that is not what they want to do. Women who are called to be homemakers are doing so, and are doing so very well. Not everyone has the same calling.

 

[notredame_999]

notredame_999;7028207:

Yes, I think this is good for many families. Very good.

“GRAVE” is relative and unique to each family. I don’t think I would be capable of running after 3 children all day whether I had a job outside the home or not. And I know plenty of people who shouldn’t have had more than one. Two would probably be my limit but I can’t say for sure until I get there. The mental, emotional and physical ability of the parents to care for children is a GRAVE consideration. Therefore if someone has 2-3 children and knows they would not be able to provide for more, it would be in the best interest of them, their children and their whole family to hold off on having more children. It’s selfish to continue having children when you know you can’t provide for them,. Children aren’t numbers. There is responsibility involved in having more children.

And BTW, no offense, but I think it’s pretty ****** for you to judge your parents like that. Your parents may not have anything to feel guilty about. Are you sure you know every little minute detail about their marriage, and are in the position to ascertain whether their immortal souls are in jeapordy just because they didn’t keep having children.

1.) This type of thinking that diminishes sacrifie is so hypocritical. How can you ask a heterosexual priest to give up marriage, children, and sex for life when the married couple cannot sacrrifice a degree of “mental, social, and physical ability?” I only state this because I am discerning the priesthood but the issue of ABC being defined as a MORTAL sin and NFP only being allowed in a GRAVE circumstance is tearing me apart.

2.) I am not judging my parents I am concerned about their eternal salvation. I am pretty confident they did use ABC and part of the reason why was because my mother has a full-time job which allowed us to live pretty comftorably. The other reason why they used ABC is because they went to a liberal novus ordo parish taught by feminine priests who never mentioned it and I’m sure even some said it was ok.

 

[Lutheranteach]

Yes I agree with you that sometimes a mother working is necessary because the husband cannot bring in enough income to support the family. But couldn’t it also be said that part of the reason why men’s wages have gone down is because they are competing with women? Like I said, I have no problem with a working mother as long as she realizes that the role of wife/mother come before the career; they are not equal roles.

I think they certainly can be. I certainly feel there are women out there who, while they do not have to work, are better overall mothers because they do as it makes them happier overall. I’ve known kids who had 100% stay at home moms who were miserable and in turn made their kids miserable, husbands miserable and walking in the door of their house was a tension filled exercise.

 

[Julianna]

I don’t see anything wrong with a woman being a wife/mother and holding down a job for which she spent years preparing by going to school. In addition, some women don’t feel it worth their sanity to be responsible for more than 1-3 children, while others are perfectly fine with having 5-10.

I don’t understand what you mean by saying the Church is somewhat responsible for this feminist mindset because almost all catholic colleges and universities in this country have female majorities. Are you suggesting they restrict female admissions so that women are kept uneducated and without any outside-of-the-home skills?

Great post!

How sad…it seems the OP thinks women shouldn’t be educated or work outside the home.

Tell me OP…how much would you like to contribute to the household bills?

 

[notredame_999]

How are they going to remind them of that while graduating them with career-oriented degrees like medical, nursing, law, engineering, etc degrees? How does one graduate a woman with any degree and then remind her to put it on the back burner because some people think she doesn’t deserve to actually use that degree in her career?

Thankfully, I don’t think that will happen again. Our society (and our economy) will not let that happen. Women deserve to be happy in their chosen careers just like men, and not be forced to stay home if that is not what they want to do. Women who are called to be homemakers are doing so, and are doing so very well. Not everyone has the same calling.

1.) You say thankfully that wont happen will again. So are you implying that are grandparents, great-grandparents, and all the generations before us were “suffering” because the mother stayed at home? How are you so confident that this generation is right and all the other generations were in the dark ages?

2.)“Women deserve to be happy in their chosen careers just like men.” The problem with that is women are not like men- equal dignity but seperate nature.

3.) Don’t you see a societal breakdown where women work and childcare is being pushed to day-care companies when it should be the mother herself if economically possible?

 

[Julianna]

1.) You say thankfully that wont happen will again. So are you implying that are grandparents, great-grandparents, and all the generations before us were “suffering” because the mother stayed at home? How are you so confident that this generation is right and all the other generations were in the dark ages?

2.)“Women deserve to be happy in their chosen careers just like men.” The problem with that is women are not like men- equal dignity but seperate nature.

3.) Don’t you see a societal breakdown where women work and childcare is being pushed to day-care companies when it should be the mother herself if economically possible?

so shall we send all the female doctors, lawyers, teachers, elected officials, nurses, dentists, professors home? oh yeah…lest we forget…“the secretaries”.

Laura Ingalls Wilder…you had no business teaching school…you needed to be home.

How fast can you type?

wow…unbelievable.

 

[notredame_999]

No you’re unbelievable and so is the majority of this Church which is falling off a cliff right now because we have negligent clergy who refuse to talk about mortal sin and hell confirmed by the revelations of Fatima in 1917. And no its not a “private revelation” this was a public prophecy.

 

[Julianna]

No you’re unbelievable and so is the majority of this Church which is falling off a cliff right now because we have negligent clergy who refuse to talk about mortal sin and hell confirmed by the revelations of Fatima in 1917. And no its not a “private revelation” this was a public prophecy.

I think you need to stop reading the “Left Behind Series” and focus on what “you” can do “in this life” for others and stop giving evil free press. Remember, evil is vain.

To be fair…what do you think the Church can do to bring about what you are proposing…since feminism has pushed women out the door?

 

[Bluegoat]

It isn’t the case that women in the workforce have caused the decrease in men’s wages. Rather, as incomes decreased, most families have had to send a second person into the workforce to make ends meet.

As a society, we have put much emphasis on consumption because we belive that it creates wealth. That is closer to the real reasons for our present problems.

Consider that for us, the purpose of business is profit. In the Middle Ages, profit was not the purpose of business - it was morally questionable!!! It is hard for us to even imagine that, but I think it points to the huge gap between what we value, what we worship even, and what people thought in the past. We worship money, and so everyone must work and earn money.

That being said, I have two things to add. Women did actually work in the past for the most part; the mom at home past we imagine was a short lived period. And I have seen an increasing trend to stay at home parents in my age group (I’m 34) though it is not always the moms.

 

[notredame_999]

I think you need to stop reading the “Left Behind Series” and focus on what “you” can do “in this life” for others and stop giving evil free press. Remember, evil is vain.

To be fair…what do you think the Church can do to bring about what you are proposing…since feminism has pushed women out the door?

1. First of all I take offense to the left behind series reference which is protestant and something I never brought up. The left behind stuff is something totally contrary to our faith because it says that Christians will be “raptured” and saved from suffering when Christ tells us all to suffer. An example of suffering on this earth would be a priest who can’t have sex, a married couple who can’t use artificial birth control, a young single man who can’t touch himself in the morning, an engaged couple who can’t cohabitate. Doing all of these things is hard, but the church teaches we must follow them in order to avoid mortal sin and save our soul.
2. What can the Church do? For one remind people that using ABC is a mortal sin. Tell them about NFP- but that even it can only be used in GRAVE reasons. Tell them this in sermons or in parish newsletters. Tell people that every time that a married couple who uses ABC, or a young couple who is fornicating, or a young teenage man who touches himself and then receives the body of Christ- they have committed a sacreligious communion. Say it in a way that is true and with love- kind of like Fr. John Corapi. Talk about spiritiual warfare. Talk about Fatima and how Our Lady is a force against evil.

 

[kozlosap]

No you’re unbelievable and so is the majority of this Church which is falling off a cliff right now because we have negligent clergy who refuse to talk about mortal sin and hell confirmed by the revelations of Fatima in 1917. And no its not a “private revelation” this was a public prophecy.

I think that in your juvenile world view most all Catholics, both American and others in the non-third world countries would be going to hell. I was under the impression that none of us on earth are privy to who is in hell and who isn’t or are you somehow blessed with this knowledge? Priests have many important things to talk about in their homilies and ABC and how many children a couple choose to have is probably not at the very top of the list. Maybe teaching people about forgiveness, charity and not being a phony judgmental is more important, ie, following the gospels of Jesus Christ.