Feminist ideals behind birth control

[Julianna]

Ok first of all I’m suprised at the responses I’m getting because I thought everyone in the traditional catholic forum agreed with Humanae Vitae. I thought everyone agreed that even NFP must be used under a GRAVE reason- I didn’t invent that. I’m unsure if wanting to be able to send a child to a prestigious catholic university justifies a GRAVE reason to postpone pregnancy??? Guess I was wrong.

Second, you mention the expense of law school. With all due respect, what is more important, a law degree or welcoming another child into the world? What do you say to some of these Catholic families in Latin America or Africa who are raising children on literally $5 or less a day? Maybe we should learn something from their sacrifice?

Third, its not about people who agree/disagree with me. Its about following the teachings of the church and avoiding mortal sin. The Catholic Church teaches that using ABC, blowing of mass, pre-marital sex, masturbation etc. are mortal sins. Yet at least 80% of self-described Catholic married couples in this Country have no problem doing some of these things without confession and then taking communino on Christmas and Easter so obviously we have a very serious problem in the Church right now. Does that mean all of these people are going to hell? Well, what does the Church teach? The church teaches that any un-confessed mortal sin LEADS a person to hell although we cannot be fully certain where they end up. Christ and Our Lady can save anybody should they choose to and I sure hope they do.

Finally, in regard to my parents yes this is a serious issue. I am concerned about their salvation. I do not want them in hell! If that makes me a pharisee so be it but I dont think so. The reason why I brought them up is because they’re a good example of Catholic decline in this country. They had devout parents who worked hard to send them to catholic school, met at a Catholic school, got married in a Catholic Church, went to mass had me baptized, communion etc. I am very appreciative for that. However, they never believed in confession- like most American Catholics. The reason why people don’t believe in confession is because they were never taught of sin. They were never really taught WHY the church teaches against ABC, **so they engaged in it **like most Catholics in this country do while failing to realize they were committing mortal sins. The homosexual priest scandals and the way some bishops covered it up didnt’ help either.

Yes…and oddly enough…they aren’t liking it much because they are making over the border to this country by the thousands.

And who are dying every second because their parents have no means to feed them? Odd thing is…when I see news reports from Africa…the villages are filled with women and children…where are the men?

I believe you mean…“pedophile” scandals.

How do you know? Did they tell you they practiced ABC?

 

[notredame_999]

If it is your passion to stop the use of ABC then you should find a way to help educate people on it. The fact is, it’s not taught well AT ALL. It is glazed over. Over and Over again.

You’ve heard that saying that you’ll catch more flys with sugar than vinegar. You might consider changing your approach. Because as a woman, the title of your thread indicates you are a man that has not had to personally deal with the question at hand. You haven’t had to grapple with the reality of multiple children and **** wages. Yeah, the people in Africa aren’t RAISING children on $5.00/day, they are barely keeping them alive. The more appropriate thing to do would be to abstain, and not bring a child into guranteed suffering and disease.

I’m glad that you thinkFather Corapi is such an amazing man. I’m sure you can see that if anyone can lead a life like he did prior to becoming a priest, and turn around to be such an amazing spokesman for God and his Church, and presumebly isn’t headed for hell… That those that have made mistakes such as ABC under the impression they had no other recourse, can in fact be saved. Perhaps you should reach out to those, inclusive of your parents. Let them know your concern for their soul, and there is in fact something called confession.

But more than anything… share with them the Grace of God. Get them excited about God and his glory. When people want to become closer to God they start to do what’s necessary to prepare their souls for life after death.

God is so gracious. He knows we will make mistakes. It hurts him. However, he is the best Father out there. He allows us to ask forgiveness and truly mean it. And he grants such forgiveness. We may have to serve a little time… but he wants us in Heaven. We will be given many chances…

good advice

 

[Julianna]

What are you talking about? Yes the clergy is responsible! I went to confession a couple of months ago and I had a priest tell me not to let masturbation keep me from communion! That is wrong. I wonder what additional spiritual counsel he gave other Catholics? I bet that type of attitude is prevalent in the liberal wing of the church. When your average Joe Catholic shows up to confession and is told things contrary to the Catechism that is not his fault- that is the priest. We can’t expect the laity to be theologians

Don’t see a thing wrong with him telling you that. And besides…YOU shouldn’t be telling us. It’s none of our business.

Let me tell you what a priest told a young girl in my dad’s class, circa 1941…
Dad was waiting in a line to go to confession with his classmates. He was next. A female classmate came out of the confessional, hysterical and crying. My dad asked her what was wrong. They went outside the Church and she told him:

“I told father my mother served meat yesterday (Friday) and Father yelled at me and told me that my mother should have her hands cut off!!”

Needless to say…dad didn’t go to confession…instead he walked the girl home and tried to comfort her.

So we should go back to that? huh?

 

[floresco]

Because as a woman, the title of your thread indicates you are a man that has not had to personally deal with the question at hand. You haven’t had to grapple with the reality of multiple children and **** wages.

While I agree with most of what you are saying, this sounds like you do not appreciate the perspective of husbands and fathers on this issue. Men probably feel the responsibility to be providers for their families even more than women do. Wanting to be open to life as the Church teaches when society assumes that families will have have two wage earners is very hard on men. It is not unusual for husband a wife to agree they would like many children and like the mother home with them and then the husband feels like a failure when he can’t earn enough money for this. Being a sole wage earner for a family is a huge pressure on a man.

 

[Julianna]

10 or 12 kids is pretty rare and you know it. Also, I never said 10 or 12 was some kind of ideal number. Why is it the parents responsibility to pay for the young adult’s college tuition? Yes, it would be great if it could happen but whats more important- getting a degree in four years and delaying life or asking the young adult to work/take out a loan so life can be given? There is nothing wrong with sending kids to public schools if catholic schools aren’t an option. Most of the catholic schools today teach a watered down catholicism anyway…I speak from experience.

My son is in college on financial aid. It is up to him to pay it back.

I have always been of the adage…become a woman before you become a mother. Education is as important to a woman who seeks it, as it is to a man.

My daughter decided not to go to college…now she is working two part time jobs…and finding it difficult to get a place of her own. She chose this path. Her brother chose differently. Each had the same choices.

 

[Julianna]

While I agree with most of what you are saying, this sounds like you do not appreciate the perspective of husbands and fathers on this issue. Men probably feel the responsibility to be providers for their families even more than women do. Wanting to be open to life as the Church teaches when society assumes that families will have have two wage earners is very hard on men. It is not unusual for husband a wife to agree they would like many children and like the mother home with them and then the husband feels like a failure when he can’t earn enough money for this. Being a sole wage earner for a family is a huge pressure on a man.

And to help my husband with that huge pressure…as his “helpmate”…I went to work. I didn’t sit and whine because the cupboards were bare and the mortgage was due…and look at him and say…“gee honey…let’s have more kids”.

 

[adstrinity]

I believe you mean…“pedophile” scandals.

I believe “homosexual priest” scandals are an appropriate title seeing as how pedophilia was NOT the issue and the priests in question were not pedophiles but homosexual ephebophiles or hebophiles, but, nobody wants to blame homosexual acts, no, they want to give a false label and apply it to the Church.

At least, that is how what I THINK was meant. I hope to be corrected if I am incorrect.

 

[Julianna]

I believe “homosexual priest” scandals are an appropriate title seeing as how pedophilia was NOT the issue and the priests in question were not pedophiles but homosexual ephebophiles or hebophiles, but, nobody wants to blame homosexual acts, no, they want to give a false label and apply it to the Church.

At least, that is how what I THINK was meant. I hope to be corrected if I am incorrect.

Not all the child victims were “boys”. So “homosexual” is incorrect. “Pedophile”. Adults who prey on children (male or female). And note: when the scandals broke…the “then children”…were children in the 1940’s, 1950’s and the dawn of the 60’s…well before Vat 2…came along.

 

[floresco]

And to help my husband with that huge pressure…as his “helpmate”…I went to work. I didn’t sit and whine because the cupboards were bare and the mortgage was due…and look at him and say…“gee honey…let’s have more kids”.

Nobody is saying that there is anything intrinsically wrong with women having jobs. There is a problem, however, when Catholics make decisions based on the world’s values rather than the Church’s values.

For Catholics having a large family is a good thing and having a mother home with her children is a good thing. A husband and wife may be in a situation in which this is difficult and they need to prayerfully face the challenge together. A husband or wife should not be unilaterally making decisions about family size or getting a job. And both of them should be making these decisions based on Church teaching. Using birth control is not an option.

(You apparently do not realize that masturbation is a mortal sin and that people who have committed this sin need to go to Confession before receiving Communion. This leads me to wonder how well you understand the Church teaching on birth control.)

 

[faithfully]

Not all the child victims were “boys”. So “homosexual” is incorrect. “Pedophile”. Adults who prey on children (male or female). And note: when the scandals broke…the “then children”…were children in the 1940’s, 1950’s and the dawn of the 60’s…well before Vat 2…came along.

Yeah, I think “pedophile” is MOST accurate. Perhaps each case would need to be classified. I know the cases coming before our diocese right now happened in the early 80’s with 3rd, 4th, and 5th grade boys…

There were 2 priests in our parish. At different times. I only remember one of them. And you know what. He was AWFUL! That man did nothing but screech Hell, Demons and Fire. He could turn any Saint away from the church. He was that bad. The other, I don’t remember. But I DO remember the boys complaining about him. My adult hind site has serious Alarms going off… It’s terribly Sad. Many of those boys will have turned away from the Church forever.

 

[Timothy17]

Lovely to see some of the posters here just absolutely feeding the Catholic stereotypes…my dad and grandfather would have loved it.

Sorry, but I am going to have to jump in here : it was Martin who said that humans were each and all God-driven to produce babies like rabits. Celibacy, apparently, wasn’t his forte, which is why he personally condemned it as evil. Mind you, good old Martin took a lot of liberties in assigning himself as God and His bona fide interpreter to the masses of baby factories he called Christians. Please remember that at the time of Martin, something like one in four males were professed celibates, so he had even less reason than we today to imagine that men were incapable of celibacy, which he professed to be both unnatural and fundamentally impossible. Frankly, your heresiarch would today be branded a mad-man and thrown into the looney-bin for the things he said and did - but, of course, times were obviously much more tolerant back in the day when the Church was an arbiter

Pax,
Tim

 

[faithfully]

While I agree with most of what you are saying, this sounds like you do not appreciate the perspective of husbands and fathers on this issue. Men probably feel the responsibility to be providers for their families even more than women do. Wanting to be open to life as the Church teaches when society assumes that families will have have two wage earners is very hard on men. It is not unusual for husband a wife to agree they would like many children and like the mother home with them and then the husband feels like a failure when he can’t earn enough money for this. Being a sole wage earner for a family is a huge pressure on a man.

Since I’m not a man, I don’t pretend to know the perspective that the average joe probably feels. I can only speak with any experience as a woman

I agree that society trains men they should be the bread winner. But I wouldn’t get into a battle over who is actually more concerned for providing for their family. I was actually raised to be ABLE to provide for my family if necessary. Because, I can only control me. And I can only HOPE for the best in my choice of Husband. So far so good. I would imagine that if a couple is in a situation as MINE, they are pretty darn equally concerned. Outside of my situation, I would then venture to guess that the term Dead Beat Dad exists for a reason, and therefore causes more concern for women. You don’t hear about Dead Beat Mothers too often. Just woman trying to make it, usually while the dad goes off and pretends not to have already started another life.

Society does not assume this. The ecomony as it stands unfortunately dictates this. There are ways to function on a low salary. But it’s just harder. That’s simple math.

Agreed, But it’s not unusual for a woman to realize that her body can only take so much. Or that the income they do infact earn will only adequately support X # of children.

Again, I’m gonna guess it’s hard for a woman too. Especially, since statistically she’ll only make a some 75 cents to the dollar for the same job held by a man, all other variables equal.

 

[Julianna]

Nobody is saying that there is anything intrinsically wrong with women having jobs. There is a problem, however, when Catholics make decisions based on the world’s values rather than the Church’s values.

For Catholics having a large family is a good thing and having a mother home with her children is a good thing. A husband and wife may be in a situation in which this is difficult and they need to prayerfully face the challenge together. A husband or wife should not be unilaterally making decisions about family size or getting a job. And both of them should be making these decisions based on Church teaching. Using birth control is not an option.

(You apparently do not realize that masturbation is a mortal sin and that people who have committed this sin need to go to Confession before receiving Communion. This leads me to wonder how well you understand the Church teaching on birth control.)

My purpose was telling the OP TMI and it was none of our business. I don’t find myself looking around wondering who is worthy to receive communion or not. Again, none of my business.

I understand well the Church teaching on birth control. The pill messes more with your mind…than anything…it drove me nuts. Not sure about the abortive properties…but the fact that it is hormonal “chemical” is what made me stop taking it when I was in my 20’s. I believe I mentioned that floresco in other threads regarding BC. And lets not forget heart attack, strokes, blood clots. No thank you… No need to go over it again.

 

[floresco]

Since I’m not a man, I don’t pretend to know the perspective that the average joe probably feels. I can only speak with any experience as a woman

I have seen women post with empathy about this, so I do not think it is that hard for women to understand and appreciate the sacrifices of men. Nor do I think it is impossible for men to understand the difficulties that women face. I think that both sexes would be better off if more people were trying to do this rather than only thinking about their own problems.

Outside of my situation, I would then venture to guess that the term Dead Beat Dad exists for a reason, and therefore causes more concern for women. You don’t hear about Dead Beat Mothers too often. Just woman trying to make it, usually while the dad goes off and pretends not to have already started another life.

The reason the term Dead Beat Dad exists and that we don’t hear about Dead Beat Mothers is that the media is biased against men. While there are some cases of irresponsible men, they are not as prevalent as we are led to believe. Nor are irresponsible women as rare.

Especially, since statistically she’ll only make a some 75 cents to the dollar for the same job held by a man, all other variables equal.

That is a misleading figure. Actually women who don’t have children make more money than men of comparable age, education, etc… It is trying to combine a job with motherhood that impacts a woman’s earning ability.

 

[dailey]

Interesting thread. Many good points being brought up.

Just curious… would anyone like to respond? Regarding using NFP for a “grave” reason, would you consider a women who is 41 with 4 children, oldest being handicap to the point of needing 24/7 care, a good enough reason not to want anymore kids?

 

[kozlosap]

econd, you mention the expense of law school. With all due respect, what is more important, a law degree or welcoming another child into the world? **What do you say to some of these Catholic families in Latin America or Africa who are raising children on literally $5 or less a day? Maybe we should learn something from their sacrifice?
**

What is the most important is making sure that your children have a chance to live. I believe that using third world, beyond poor, countries as an example of places where “good” people (Catholics) don’t use any form of birth control is the most absurd thing I’ve read in a long time. Yep, I can just hear those Godly women proclaiming that it’s OK that 5 of their children have died from disease or hunger, they can just have more.

 

[Julianna]

Interesting thread. Many good points being brought up.

Just curious… would anyone like to respond? Regarding using NFP for a “grave” reason, would you consider a women who is 41 with 4 children, oldest being handicap to the point of needing 24/7 care, a good enough reason not to want anymore kids?

This is just my opinion. If it were me…at 41…I would not want anymore children.

 

[Julianna]

econd, you mention the expense of law school. With all due respect, what is more important, a law degree or welcoming another child into the world? **What do you say to some of these Catholic families in Latin America or Africa who are raising children on literally $5 or less a day? Maybe we should learn something from their sacrifice?
**

What is the most important is making sure that your children have a chance to live. I believe that using third world, beyond poor, countries as an example of places where “good” people (Catholics) don’t use any form of birth control is the most absurd thing I’ve read in a long time. Yep, I can just hear those Godly women proclaiming that it’s OK that 5 of their children have died from disease or hunger, they can just have more.

 

[floresco]

My purpose was telling the OP TMI and it was none of our business. I don’t find myself looking around wondering who is worthy to receive communion or not. Again, none of my business.

But it is the business of priests to instruct the faithful so that we will know whether we should be receiving Communion or not. And the OP was making the point that many priests are not doing this. This is a legitimate concern. It is the business of the laity when our shepherds do not lead us as they should. There was nothing wrong with what the OP wrote.

I understand well the Church teaching on birth control. The pill messes more with your mind…than anything…it drove me nuts. Not sure about the abortive properties…but the fact that it is hormonal “chemical” is what made me stop taking it when I was in my 20’s. I believe I mentioned that floresco in other threads regarding BC. And lets not forget heart attack, strokes, blood clots. No thank you… No need to go over it again.

While all this is true, it has nothing to do with the Church teaching. She does not teach that birth control is a sin because it is unhealthy. If this were the issue, then there would be no problem with condoms. (Also, if it is OK for you to share your personal experiences with birth control, it seems unfair to condemn another poster’s sharing of personal experiences as TMI.)

 

[Momofmyangels]

Interesting thread. Many good points being brought up.

Just curious… would anyone like to respond? Regarding using NFP for a “grave” reason, would you consider a women who is 41 with 4 children, oldest being handicap to the point of needing 24/7 care, a good enough reason not to want anymore kids?

If I was sent another child, I would take it without hesitation, even in this situation.