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theoda
Guest
St Thomas Aquinas says all who want to go to heaven can.This thread frightens me…there are times when i am convinced I shall never gain Heaven.
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theoda
Guest
Why do so many people think they know better than the saints, the doctors and fathers of the church, and even popes?
Seriously, isn’t just the fact that out of all the saints who have taken an opinion, they all said few are saved are enough to convince you?
Seriously, isn’t just the fact that out of all the saints who have taken an opinion, they all said few are saved are enough to convince you?
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Another_Andrew
Guest
His sermon has already been discussed in this thread, and I agree wholeheartedly with his conclusion, which you may want to read again. Not to mention that St. Leonard’s opinion is in no way a deal-breaker here.
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theoda
Guest
Universal salvation is a heresy. While we certainly would hope for it, it won’t happen.
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theoda
Guest
If you read the sermon, then he clearly agrees that few are saved. Proof of this is when he is talking about it, he uses the term obvious truth, not possible truth I’m not sure about
Here:
Brothers, I want to send all of you away comforted today. So if you ask me my sentiment on the number of those who are saved, here it is: Whether there are many or few that are saved, I say that whoever wants to be saved, will be saved; and that no one can be damned if he does not want to be. And if it is true that few are saved, it is because there are few who live well. As for the rest, compare these two opinions: the first one states that the greater number of Catholics are condemned; the second one, on the contrary, pretends that the greater number of Catholics are saved. Imagine an Angel sent by God to confirm the first opinion, coming to tell you that not only are most Catholics damned, but that of all this assembly present here, one alone will be saved. If you obey the Commandments of God, if you detest the corruption of this world, if you embrace the Cross of Jesus Christ in a spirit of penance, you will be that one alone who is saved.
See how he says the second truth pretends?
If you don’t believe st Leonard, I could give you about 15 other quotes by other saints confirming that few are saved without a doubt
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Another_Andrew
Guest
Not all of them agree that a lot of people are condemned, however. Not to mention that logically, their opinions just do not work with the Church’s teachings on God’s love. If God really loves us as much as he does, he wouldn’t allow so many people to go to hell.
Most people are not fervent Catholics for some of the following reasons:
- Through reason, they have reached the conclusion that there is contradiction in Catholic teaching and/or the Bible, and from their point of view, cannot reasonably believe what is taught by the Church.
- They were never given proper religious instruction and/or never had proper spiritual formation. This is not necessarily a deliberate choice on their part to choose an easy lifestyle, but what is to be expected in their situation. Someone whose father is avid about a sport will have a greater likelihood of growing up being able to play that sport well and enjoy it than someone whose parents aren’t able to spend much time with them and don’t take an interest in sports.
- They have had negative emotional experiences, such as being sexually abused by a priest, that have left them scarred and have pushed them away from the Church (in such cases, their faith formation was obviously not terribly solid).
- They have never been introduced to the Catholic religion, have been misinformed about the Church’s teachings, or have never learned enough for it to have any relevance to them.
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Another_Andrew
Guest
From the quote above: “I say that whoever wants to be saved, will be saved; and that no one can be damned if he does not want to be.”
How many people do you know who want to be damned, or don’t want to go to heaven? Even the majority those who don’t believe in heaven would want to go there if they believed it was real.
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theoda
Guest
Again, if you want to be saved, you have to do what it takes. You can’t just say I want a million dollars and not do anything
So many people think they can serve more than 1 master. They worship their false gods of luxury rather than the true God.
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Another_Andrew
Guest
But how many people are there who really want to give you a million dollars? God wants us all in heaven, and I don’t think he just sits by and watches us as we drop into hell one by one.
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Kurisu35712
Guest
With all due respect, where in my post did I state that I believe in universal salvation? Because I don’t.
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Another_Andrew
Guest
And to be perfectly clear, neither do I. I do believe there are some who would reject God even when allowed to make their decision with understanding.
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theoda
Guest
First of all, all of them think they aren’t saved. If you disagree, I challenge you to find one who doesn’t.
God does give people a fair chance! He is merciful, but he is all just. If people keep on rejecting God, God can’t make them change their minds since they have free will.
There are many reasons why some people aren’t fervent Catholics. I myself used to be a cradle Catholic, only going to mass on Easter and Christmas. But the reason why I didn’t go is partially because of a bad spiritual formation, but mainly on my selfishness. I didn’t want to go to mass because I was lazy. I knew it was a sin, but I kept on saying to myself that it wasn’t mortal sin so it was ok. What was happening was that I wasn’t caring about the one true God and instead caring about earthly materials.
This sorta thing happens in a lot of people. If they honestly don’t believe in the catholic religion, but they try to live a good life and observe the natural law, God in his mercy will try to find a means to save him. God will teach them the teachings in a such a way that if they refuse, they will only refuse because they don’t want to believe it. This is God’s mercy.
Also, there is no contradiction in the teachings of the church,so they cannot not believe it because of reason. What they can do,however is refuse to believe it out of self love which is sin against Holy Spirit.
Think of all the corruption in this world. Remember that we still have a fallen nature, and it is very easy for us to sin.
It happens to most people.
Lastly, in the past few were saved. According to you, God would find a way in his infinite mercy to save these people. But they weren’t. Few were saved by Noah’s ark, few
In the city of sodom, and there were few Hebrews who entered the promised land
The damned overwhelmingly were more numerous than the saved in the past. They still have the same nature as us.
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theoda
Guest
I thought you asked to pray for it? Sorry if I misread it
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Kurisu35712
Guest
Ah, no problem. What I meant was that we ought to pray for the souls in Purgatory, and as an extension for the souls of all who have died, as we cannot know who is condemned to Hell. Logically, we must never decide not to pray for someone on the basis that we believe them to be in Hell. We can’t know, and as such should pray for all. Whether those we pray for benefit from our prayers is another question of course.
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Another_Andrew
Guest
I have yet to meet someone who wants to be damned and most people who are Christian, but not practising Catholics who I have talked to on this subject think that just about everyone goes to heaven.
To use an example from my own life:
My father became agnostic because he could not reconcile what he saw in the Bible with reality. I nearly went down that path too. There are many, many convincing and often valid arguments for the Bible being erroneous or contradictory out there, and it can be very, very hard to find the answers to them (sometimes it seems like the argument has never been addressed before). I have yet to be fully convinced of the truth of the Catholic religion, because I have so many questions that have yet to be answered.
I cannot believe that my father will go to hell, because he has not rejected God. He simply doesn’t believe in God because his personal experience and knowledge tells him that there’s no God. If it was revealed to him that God was real, I can guarantee that he would be happy to come back to Catholicism. He isn’t happy with his state of non-religion, and I can tell you that I wasn’t either when I had become convinced that my Faith wasn’t true. It was terrifying, and I am still plagued with doubts and questions. Had I not been brought up so well in the Faith and been instructed as well as I have been, I wouldn’t have been able to persevere.
There are thousands of people like that, and I can’t imagine that the ones who die in that state go to hell simply for not believing.
A cradle Catholic is someone who is born into a Catholic family, and so is a Catholic from the time they are in the cradle.
Alright, I see we agree on something here. I see God as being still more merciful, but at least we have common ground regarding God’s mercy.
No, that is not true. They can believe it through misinformation, lack of information, being shown what looks like contradiction and immoral instruction from God in the Bible without ever finding the explanations (when the explanations exist).
But this isn’t necessarily representative of what happened after they died.
Their extermination served as lessons for future generations, but it is conceivable that God had mercy on them in their ignorance and didn’t condemn them to eternal punishment. Remember also that the stories of Noah’s ark and Sodom and Gomorrah would have been written thousands of years after the fact, and may in fact be moral tales, or merely based on past events. Ancient history wasn’t about the facts like modern history is. One of its primary purposes was generally to teach lessons.
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fred_conty
Guest
I wish the best for your father, keep praying for him for that is best, and I will remember him in prayer as well.I have yet to meet someone who wants to be damned and most people who are Christian, but not practising Catholics who I have talked to on this subject think that just about everyone goes to heaven.
To use an example from my own life:
My father became agnostic because he could not reconcile what he saw in the Bible with reality. I nearly went down that path too. There are many, many convincing and often valid arguments for the Bible being erroneous or contradictory out there, and it can be very, very hard to find the answers to them (sometimes it seems like the argument has never been addressed before). I have yet to be fully convinced of the truth of the Catholic religion, because I have so many questions that have yet to be answered.
I cannot believe that my father will go to hell, because he has not rejected God. He simply doesn’t believe in God because his personal experience and knowledge tells him that there’s no God. If it was revealed to him that God was real, I can guarantee that he would be happy to come back to Catholicism. He isn’t happy with his state of non-religion, and I can tell you that I wasn’t either when I had become convinced that my Faith wasn’t true. It was terrifying, and I am still plagued with doubts and questions. Had I not been brought up so well in the Faith and been instructed as well as I have been, I wouldn’t have been able to persevere.
There are thousands of people like that, and I can’t imagine that the ones who die in that state go to hell simply for not believing.
A cradle Catholic is someone who is born into a Catholic family, and so is a Catholic from the time they are in the cradle.
Alright, I see we agree on something here. I see God as being still more merciful, but at least we have common ground regarding God’s mercy.
No, that is not true. They can believe it through misinformation, lack of information, being shown what looks like contradiction and immoral instruction from God in the Bible without ever finding the explanations (when the explanations exist).
But this isn’t necessarily representative of what happened after they died.
Their extermination served as lessons for future generations, but it is conceivable that God had mercy on them in their ignorance and didn’t condemn them to eternal punishment. Remember also that the stories of Noah’s ark and Sodom and Gomorrah would have been written thousands of years after the fact, and may in fact be moral tales, or merely based on past events. Ancient history wasn’t about the facts like modern history is. One of its primary purposes was generally to teach lessons.
May the Good Shepherd fill you with peace.
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Another_Andrew
Guest
Thank you.
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ajecphotos
Guest
Nobody knows the mind of God. We can all guess this and guess that. God can do ANYTHING! So, even a serial mass murderer can make it to heaven if God allows it! God is mercy, this i believe. Ask and it shall be given.
God knows us all individually. He knows our weaknesses. He knows who we are and what we are. I pray that God will forgive me for my sins. That he will shine his mercy on me at the time of death. This i ask of all humanity!
God bless you all
God knows us all individually. He knows our weaknesses. He knows who we are and what we are. I pray that God will forgive me for my sins. That he will shine his mercy on me at the time of death. This i ask of all humanity!
God bless you all
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I am wondering is, “Alas! The greater number of Catholics, the greater number of those who live here, perhaps even those who are in this assembly, will be damned!”, part of the “excerpt from the sermon by St. Leonard of Port Maurice”?
Do you know if he thought that ALL of those not Catholic were “damned”?
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Tom_Baum
Guest
Didn’t St. Thomas Aquinas also say, “That the saints may enjoy their beatitude and the grace of God more richly, a perfect sight of the punishment of the damned is granted them”?
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