Fiancé moving in with me?

[mini_me640]

It seems you don’t understand the gravity of giving scandal. If someone does something that causes another to sin, they themselves sin.

[BIBLEDRB]Luke 17:1-2[/BIBLEDRB]

Even though the unmarried couple who cohabits “chastely” did not commit sin, themselves, if their example causes a weaker couple to attempt the same, when the weaker couple fails, the stronger couple shares in that sin.

Since they think they are above reproach (like the pharisees of Jesus day), it is more of a challenge for them to actually repent and find forgiveness. (that is why it is “better” for the one who gives scandal to have a millstone hung around his neck)

Also, it is incorrect to compare unmarried couples today with betrothed couples in that time. Betrothal is marriage. It is just an “early stage” of marriage where the couple is not yet permitted to engage in the marital act or live in their own home.

Who says I thought I was above reproach? I said many times it is generally a bad idea. I also clearly stated that I knew that betrothal was a different situation. I was only stating that it is not impossible for a couple to live under the same roof and not have sex. Period. I also
DO understand the gravity of scandal. However many people on CAF misapply the term to any situation where others might think a person is sinning when they actually aren’t which is not what scandal means.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

I’m not holding myself up or advocating cohabitation. I’m just saying that it is not humanly impossible to live together without having sex. Additionally, scandal is something that leads another to sin, not merely something that makes others think you might be sinning.

You are holding up your example as one that is possible for the OP – namely, cohabitating without having sex. The Church does not advocate cohabitation. Another way of referring to cohabitation is “living in sin.” You say that it is possible to live in sin without sinning. It appears that you still advocate sin (by publishing your past successul attempt at non-sexual cohabitation) and encourage one to place oneself in the near occasion of sin. This could be scandalous.

For more info, I refer you to a CAF Apologist.

One can be married and not have sex, which is known as continence. This is the only instance of “living together” and not having sex that is consistent with Church morality, though there may be others that I am unaware of.

 

[SonCatcher]

Who says I thought I was above reproach?

You did. By your self-righteous attitude.

I said many times it is generally a bad idea. I also clearly stated that I knew that betrothal was a different situation.

Then you will agree to desist from holding it up as a false example.

I was only stating that it is not impossible for a couple to live under the same roof and not have sex. Period. I also DO understand the gravity of scandal.

Do you?

However many people on CAF misapply the term to any situation where others might think a person is sinning when they actually aren’t which is not what scandal means.

I agree that many misunderstand what scandal means. However, scandal is not only given by what one does but also what one writes or says.

 

[monicabay]

Can you stay with relatives and allow her to live in your home? That’s what I did when my fiance moved to my hometown to look for a job before we were married. He got my apartment and I moved back in with mama. (Which I think should be worth at least a hundred indulgences.) While I don’t really agree that living under the same roof definately will lead you to sex, it will probably give people the impression that you are having sex, and by extension, that you think having sex before marriage is okay. Some people don’t think that other people’s opinions are that important, however, if we are called to be witnesses to Christ (And I heard somewhere that we are.) it has to be taken into consideration. I would strongly urge you not to cohabitate.

This is a great idea if possible! Well,can you live as siblings? If not, I sure would look at another way. Sorry I can’t be more help.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Well,can you live as siblings?

No, they should not. This is cohabitation and is not consistent with Church teaching.

 

[mini_me640]

You did. By your self-righteous attitude.

Then you will agree to desist from holding it up as a false example.

Do you?

I agree that many misunderstand what scandal means. However, scandal is not only given by what one does but also what one writes or says.

I assure you I am not the one with a self righteous attitude. I agree that cohabitating is generally a bad idea. In spite of the circumstances that led us to the situation I should not have done it. However I did manage to avoid having sex. All I was saying is that it is possible for some couples not to have sex in that situation and I was saying that in response to post that said if you live together you WILL have sex. As modern American couples already generally spend large amounts of time together alone, they typically already have many opportunities for sex already regardless of their living arrangement, not that it’s a good thing, just a fact of modern society.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

I agree that cohabitating is generally a bad idea.

Cohabitation is more than “generally a bad idea,” don’t you think? It is specifically a sin, one that could prohibit one from remaining in good standing as a Catholic.

When unmarried couples cohabitate, even without sexual relations, they sin. And I do not think they could receive the Eucharist – especially since they are living in a sinful state, one that is quite possibly mortal. Receiving the Eucharist in such a state of sin could be considered sacrilegious.

As modern American couples already generally spend large amounts of time together alone, they typically already have many opportunities for sex already regardless of their living arrangement, not that it’s a good thing, just a fact of modern society.

A fact of modern society does not excuse one from the facts of the Catholic Church. Sex outside of marriage is a sin; cohabitation with or without sex is a sin. Modern society may deem each of those situations acceptable, but the Church does not.

 

[mini_me640]

Cohabitation is more than “generally a bad idea,” don’t you think? It is specifically a sin, one that could prohibit one from remaining in good standing as a Catholic.

When unmarried couples cohabitate, even without sexual relations, they sin. And I do not think they could receive the Eucharist – especially since they are living in a sinful state, one that is quite possibly mortal. Receiving the Eucharist in such a state of sin could be considered sacrilegious.

A fact of modern society does not excuse one from the facts of the Catholic Church. Sex outside of marriage is a sin; cohabitation with or without sex is a sin. Modern society may deem each of those situations acceptable, but the Church does not.

Not saying that you’re wrong, but where us it stated that living together is objectively a sin if there is no sex?

I said generally a bad idea because circumstances vary. Example a friend of mine was evicted because of something their roommate did. They had no family and would not have been able to afford an apartment of their own, and they stayed with their girlfriend and her roommate for a couple of months. Objectively a sin? I honestly don’t know. My cousin lived with his fiancée and her family several weeks before the wedding. Technically cohabitating. Sin or not I don’t know.

 

[SonCatcher]

I assure you I am not the one with a self righteous attitude. I agree that cohabitating is generally a bad idea. In spite of the circumstances that led us to the situation I should not have done it. However I did manage to avoid having sex. All I was saying is that it is possible for some couples not to have sex in that situation and I was saying that in response to post that said if you live together you WILL have sex. As modern American couples already generally spend large amounts of time together alone, they typically already have many opportunities for sex already regardless of their living arrangement, not that it’s a good thing, just a fact of modern society.

Yet, in spite of your acknowledgement that you did the wrong thing, you still manage to excuse yourself.

 

[mini_me640]

Yet, in spite of your acknowledgement that you did the wrong thing, you still manage to excuse yourself.

Where? I simply stated the absolute fact that although we were wrong to live together, we did not have sex. This is a fact. Should I lie and say we did have sex so my mistake of cohabitating sounds even worse than it already is? I clearly stated I was wrong. You are reading something into my tone that isn’t there.
Tkuu

 

[Kelfa28]

This is seriously upsetting.

It’s upsetting because some people do want to come back to the Church and want to be in good standing with the Church but circumstances dictate otherwise. Some of these comments are basically saying it’s impossible.

I myself am in a situation where I’m cohabitating with my Fiance. As of now I have no where else to go and I’m my Fiance’s dependent. I’m 2 days from my due date…the two of us had no idea we were sinning. We decided to come into the Church and are completed with RCIA.

We are living like brother and sister until 2 months from now when we will be married. It’s worked and we’ve been celibate successfully through prayer and putting our trust in God.

We’ve spoken to our priest and he was understanding. I’m taking his advice and opinion. I’ve been to confession and will be receiving the Eucharist soon.

There are situations where people would like to come into the Church and feel welcomed.

Married couples who would like to receive the Eucharist but are in a situation where they are waiting for an annulment yet have been married for years with a family. Should part of the couple move out because of scandal?

 

[SonCatcher]

This is seriously upsetting.

It’s upsetting because some people do want to come back to the Church and want to be in good standing with the Church but circumstances dictate otherwise. Some of these comments are basically saying it’s impossible.

I myself am in a situation where I’m cohabitating with my Fiance. As of now I have no where else to go and I’m my Fiance’s dependent. I’m 2 days from my due date…the two of us had no idea we were sinning. We decided to come into the Church and are completed with RCIA.

We are living like brother and sister until 2 months from now when we will be married. It’s worked and we’ve been celibate successfully through prayer and putting our trust in God.

We’ve spoken to our priest and he was understanding. I’m taking his advice and opinion. I’ve been to confession and will be receiving the Eucharist soon.

There are situations where people would like to come into the Church and feel welcomed.

Married couples who would like to receive the Eucharist but are in a situation where they are waiting for an annulment yet have been married for years with a family. Should part of the couple move out because of scandal?

Bravo for your turn. May God give you both the grace you need.

 

[mini_me640]

Bravo for your turn. May God give you both the grace you need.

SonCatcher - on this we can agree!

 

[Travistea]

I’m hearing a lot of rush, rush, rush to the altar. A few posters have questioned if you’ve both given this upcoming marriage enough time, discernment and serious prayer. Given the brief amount of time you were actually dating (2 months), I would probably have to say sloooooooooow down. Marriage is one solution to getting the two of you in the same country; BUT, marriage is forever. Is their really no other way of getting her here (or you going there) to allow yourselves some “normal” dating opportunities? I don’t want to sound negative, but I’ve seen so many other posters who are currently struggling with infidelity, living in miserable marriages, separation, divorce and annulments. PLEASE give yourself time.

I am not at all familiar with immigration laws or working visas, but I’ve seen several posters give you some websites to visit. Try to see if there are any alternatives available for her.

I also saw you’'ve come up with one solution to avoid living together. Excellent!! By living with your cousin’s family, you may also learn some parenting tips.

God will guide you if you let him. I’m praying for both of you.

I was in denmark for 2 months but, I was living in italy for another year after that time and saw her and her family quite a bit. I’ve done quite a good amount of discernment on the subject, to include St. Ignatius’s discerning of spirits. I can’t be totally sure of anything and neither can anyone else, all I can do is pray and trust God and I do that.

Thank you for your post, concern, and advice its not falling on deaf ears!

 

[Splagchnizomai]

This is seriously upsetting.

It’s upsetting because some people do want to come back to the Church and want to be in good standing with the Church but circumstances dictate otherwise. Some of these comments are basically saying it’s impossible.

I myself am in a situation where I’m cohabitating with my Fiance. As of now I have no where else to go and I’m my Fiance’s dependent. I’m 2 days from my due date…the two of us had no idea we were sinning. We decided to come into the Church and are completed with RCIA.

We are living like brother and sister until 2 months from now when we will be married. It’s worked and we’ve been celibate successfully through prayer and putting our trust in God.

**We’ve spoken to our priest and he was understanding. I’m taking his advice and opinion. I’ve been to confession and will be receiving the Eucharist soon.
**
There are situations where people would like to come into the Church and feel welcomed.

Married couples who would like to receive the Eucharist but are in a situation where they are waiting for an annulment yet have been married for years with a family. Should part of the couple move out because of scandal?

What’s different about your situation is that you have spoken with your priest!

 

[BlueEyedLady]

Since no one bothered to actually answer the OP, I will. It seems that he has already decided that this is the best course of action, so why not help him do what is right within it?

You will need a two bedroom, two bathroom apartment. Period. Without that both modesty anc chastity are at risk. Let her have the master bedroom with the bathroom attached. Women do all sorts of gross and personal things in bathrooms and she will appreciate hers being tucked away from the man that she is going to marry.

You need to set limits now. Not only do you not want to have sex you do not want to feel like you are living together or already married. You need to figure out how many nights a week you will spend together and put a curfew in place. 3 dates a week, back to your own rooms at 11 might be workable. Try to go out as much as possible when its date night. Don’t spend too much time just “hanging out” together in your apartment. On nights you aren’t going out don’t just lounge together. She needs to go in to her room to play video games, surf the internet, read, paint, whatever and you need to do the same. Don’t eat every meal together. She can heat up a frozen pizza at 6 and you can have spaghetti at 8. Don’t live like a family.

Agree on rules like this now. And have someone that you are accountable to. Have a close friend or family member ask you how things are going and make sure that you are still on track.

 

[Splagchnizomai]

Not saying that you’re wrong, but where us it stated that living together is objectively a sin if there is no sex?

Even without sex, cohabitation can considered to be grave scandal and grave sin (it appears that you don’t believe that this can be so). I think you’ve made it clear that you consider it to be an acceptable practice (though perhaps inadvisable), or at least one that the loopholes and exceptions should be made, especially due to the pressures and expectations of modern society.

In short, this is not an issue to be decided on an internet forum whereby individuals testify to experiences of cohabitation without sex or try to parse through the Church teaching in order to excuse themselves of immorality.

As I stated initially, speak to a priest and follow his guidance.

 

[chelle10]

I was in denmark for 2 months but, I was living in italy for another year after that time and saw her and her family quite a bit. I’ve done quite a good amount of discernment on the subject, to include St. Ignatius’s discerning of spirits. I can’t be totally sure of anything and neither can anyone else, all I can do is pray and trust God and I do that.

Thank you for your post, concern, and advice its not falling on deaf ears!

I would talk to your priest asap. It’s good advice not to rush to the alter, but it is better to get married sooner than to live in sin. And umm… If I had lived with my husband before we were married, we would NOT be married (after the first several months adjusting to living with eachother lol…) There’s a reason you’re supposed to tie the knot before living together lol

Praying for you!

 

[mini_me640]

Even without sex, cohabitation can considered to be grave scandal and grave sin (it appears that you don’t believe that this can be so). I think you’ve made it clear that you consider it to be an acceptable practice (though perhaps inadvisable), or at least one that the loopholes and exceptions should be made, especially due to the pressures and expectations of modern society.

In short, this is not an issue to be decided on an internet forum whereby individuals testify to experiences of cohabitation without sex or try to parse through the Church teaching in order to excuse themselves of immorality.

As I stated initially, speak to a priest and follow his guidance.

You are taking from my posts a tone that just isn’t there. I never suggested it wasn’t or couldn’t be a sin. I just always understood that the sin was in the sex not in the actual living arrangement, so I was very sincerely asking for something showing that the living arrangement in itself was objectively sinful since that was being stated. I conceded the very real possibility that it is objectively a sin and that I simply did not realize that. I also never meant to convey that cohabitation without sex was acceptable as I have repeatedly stated that I should not have done it.