Fighting an Annulment?

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Well that is helpful. Thanks. It hardly seems just that the “grounds” which feel more like “charges” aren’t made known to me before I choose my witnesses, as I can’t address them without knowing. I may ask to have them made known before going forward.

As much as the paperwork states that I’m not being accused of anything, if my ex-wife is going to make the case that I didn’t enter into the marriage of my own will, or in good faith, or that I didn’t understand it, that’s an accusation, no matter how wrapped in church-speak it is. It’s sad that the court system had to let me know her allegations before I responded but the Church does not. I can really see how people are made cynical about Religion when I see hypocritical processes like this in action. We had begun steps for me to take the RCIA in the fall but I’m not sure I can do that in good faith if this is the way the Church treats people. It’s very sad.
Your situation caused me to pull out the paperwork from my case and look at the questions asked of me as petitioner. Assuming that the process in Canada is approached similarly, I can assure you that it is not an “accusatory” approach at all. The questions were fairly general and none asked me to provide “grounds” for the annulment. Only the last question could really be construed this way…It asked why I was asking for a decree of nullity…
I think that the Tribunal basically tries to get a picture of the courtship and marriage so that they and not the participants can determine what, if any, grounds exist.
That is my sense anyway based on my own experience.
The best advice I’ve read is still to surrender it and ultimately that is what we will do.
Indeed. If you approach the whole matter openly, honestly, humbly and willing to accept God’s will - you should be just fine.

Peace
James
 
I’m sorry, but being told that I don’t understand Christ’s teachings on marriage well enough is not helpful. Lots of different people and different Christian Churches have different understandings about that, and the Church has changed its own interpretation of Christ’s teachings enough times.
But you don’t…The church has NEVER EVER EVER changed her teaching on marriage in doctrine.

Christ taught marriage lasts until death. That is pretty clear. You don’t want your original marriage to be investigated to see if it was valid…so you think it was. … but you now have a “girlfriend”

So does marriage last until death or not?
 
One last question, and I do appreciate all the advice. How much of this process is a rubber-stamp? Is there actually an objective examination in each case or is it just a formality to get the paperwork done? I’m just curious, reading all of this, as to whether these petitions are actually ever denied. It sounds like everyone who is able to offer advice is someone who has had an annulment granted.
 
But you don’t…The church has NEVER EVER EVER changed her teaching on marriage in doctrine.

Christ taught marriage lasts until death. That is pretty clear. You don’t want your original marriage to be investigated to see if it was valid…so you think it was. … but you now have a “girlfriend”

So does marriage last until death or not?
Christ also taught kindness and not to cast the first stone. I find your tone judgemental at best.

The Catholic church has existed in many forms and has changed itself and split itself many times. I take your point about this current incarnation of The Church’s doctrine, but to say that the Church doesn’t change its mind about points of doctrine is not true. My initial point also was to that there are different understandings of Christ’s teachings and I stand by that.

If The Church doesn’t believe in divorce, that’s fine. But the use of Annulment as it stands now is in contrast with that belief, and with the interpretation you present of Christ’s teachings. The Vatican echoed that belief last month, stating that way too many Loose Cannon annulments are being handed out. So, if one believes that marriage should last until death, that’s fine. But being revisionist about that marriage when one of the partites pays to have an annulment so they can remarry (the boyfriend they had throughout the original marriage) in the church doesn’t seem to be any more in keeping with Christ’s teachings on marriage than divorce does.
 
One last question, and I do appreciate all the advice. How much of this process is a rubber-stamp? Is there actually an objective examination in each case or is it just a formality to get the paperwork done? I’m just curious, reading all of this, as to whether these petitions are actually ever denied. It sounds like everyone who is able to offer advice is someone who has had an annulment granted.
I have heard of people being denied. That is why there is an appeal process. There have been several people posting on the forum how their’s had been denied. I think the Church takes this very seriously. There is a Canon lawyer assigned to the case as the Defender of the Bond. It is their job to fight that the bond is valid that the decree of nullity should be denied. There are people on this forum who have been trying to receive their decree of nullity for years. It takes so much time that it’s just not a rubber stamp process. Going through the formal process seems to take a minimum of a year and a half. I’m going through the Prior Bond process and unless it’s denied and I have to go Formal it should take about 6 - 8 weeks.
 
One last question, and I do appreciate all the advice. How much of this process is a rubber-stamp?
None of it.
Is there actually an objective examination in each case
Yes. Of course.
or is it just a formality to get the paperwork done?
Absolutley not.
I’m just curious, reading all of this, as to whether these petitions are actually ever denied.
Of course.
It sounds like everyone who is able to offer advice is someone who has had an annulment granted.
Well, there are less than a dozen posters on this thread, I hardly think that representative of all nullity petitions. And just because someone posts on here it does not mean that they have had a nullity petition granted or denied, or been party to one at all.
 
We had begun steps for me to take the RCIA in the fall but I’m not sure I can do that in good faith if this is the way the Church treats people. It’s very sad.
I realize this is all wrapped up in the emotional turmoil you have experienced at the hands of your wife, but really, exactly how has the Church mistreated you? They have sent you, the respondent, the exact same letter they send every respondent-- Catholic or otherwise. You will have the opportunity to talk to them face to face, to ask questions, and if the case movs forward to give testimony and have witnesses. I really don’t see how this is mistreatment in any way.

This first step is a discussion process to see how, or even IF, the process will move forward. You are not being asked for witnesses and their testimony at this point. You are being asked to reply affirmative or negative on whether or not you plan to participate and to set up a meeting with them if you are going to participate so they can explain the process and get a general understanding of your position.
 
What a kind and thoughtful response. Thank you for your voice of reason. And I do think you’re right - since I don’t believe the Church is right about this, it shouldn’t bother me. I suppose it’s just one more thing in a litany of painful accusations lobbed against me in an adversarial process. Ultimately, I plan to do as you said. I’m going to give my honest testimony about the situation and back it up with people who can authenticate it. And then I’ll have to make my peace with the outcome because it is out of my hands. I agree that the most important thing is the children. I know that they are excited and happy about our upcoming marriage and I hope that if their mother finds happiness, she will give up on her attempts to turn them against us and find peace herself.

Again, thanks for the kind words. 🙂
Are you planning to marry your Catholic girlfriend in the Catholic Church? If so, you MUST have an annulment regardless which party begins the process.
 
Christ also taught kindness and not to cast the first stone. I find your tone judgemental at best.

The Catholic church has existed in many forms and has changed itself and split itself many times. I take your point about this current incarnation of The Church’s doctrine, but to say that the Church doesn’t change its mind about points of doctrine is not true. My initial point also was to that there are different understandings of Christ’s teachings and I stand by that.

If The Church doesn’t believe in divorce, that’s fine. But the use of Annulment as it stands now is in contrast with that belief, and with the interpretation you present of Christ’s teachings. The Vatican echoed that belief last month, stating that way too many Loose Cannon annulments are being handed out. So, if one believes that marriage should last until death, that’s fine. But being revisionist about that marriage when one of the partites pays to have an annulment so they can remarry (the boyfriend they had throughout the original marriage) in the church doesn’t seem to be any more in keeping with Christ’s teachings on marriage than divorce does.
I didn’t cast any stones, and I made no judgement on the state of your soul. At all. Accusing me of such is wrong.

The church has NEVER EVER changed her teaching that marriage is between a man and a woman, and is until death. Never. Annulment does NOT conflict with this idea. Annulment does not dissolve a valid marriage. No human being can do that. You obviously do not have an understanding of an annulment actually is. The church has NOT “existed in many forms and split”. There is one church instituted by Christ, with Peter as the head. Any church that has split from that is no longer the Catholic church.

No one “PAYS” to get an annulment so they can remarry (as you are insinuating money is actually making it happen). There are plenty of expenses to do an investigation, and people are asked to cover some of those expenses (in most diocese, its about half of the actual cost). If one cannot afford it, they do not have to pay.
 
Hey, OP. I would invite you to come check out our group where you can receive some support in the process from those who have been through it as well as some who have been in your position and gotten the outcome they have were seeking. Although it does sound on face value like there may be some grounds for the a decree of invalidity but possibility not the ones she is looking for. I am thinking that this is something that you may wish to stay open to the Holy Spirit’s work in as you never know where God’s will may take you in the future or who He may place in your life. God bless.
 
Well that is helpful. Thanks. It hardly seems just that the “grounds” which feel more like “charges” aren’t made known to me before I choose my witnesses, as I can’t address them without knowing. I may ask to have them made known before going forward.

As much as the paperwork states that I’m not being accused of anything, if my ex-wife is going to make the case that I didn’t enter into the marriage of my own will, or in good faith, or that I didn’t understand it, that’s an accusation, no matter how wrapped in church-speak it is. It’s sad that the court system had to let me know her allegations before I responded but the Church does not. I can really see how people are made cynical about Religion when I see hypocritical processes like this in action. We had begun steps for me to take the RCIA in the fall but I’m not sure I can do that in good faith if this is the way the Church treats people. It’s very sad. …
Hello,

Before calling the process hypocritical, it would be best if you were made aware of what the process is, exactly. I will do my best to distill it down to its bare essentials, step by step.
  1. A petitioner (plaintiff) files a petition including the names and addresses of the spouses, the date of the wedding and divorce, possible witnesses, and an initial claim as to why the marriage is invalid (see canon 1504). You should have received a copy of this petition along with the initial paperwork. If you did not, you should ask for it. This is an important point and you shouldn’t let it pass. You are right that you should be informed of the allegations. Keep in mind, however, that the process is still in its infancy so the allegations of the petitioner are still quite minimal in their detail.
  2. If the petition is accepted, the respondent (that’s you) is “cited.” This citation is what you have received. It informs you about the petition and the process as well as asks for your (name removed by moderator)ut (c. 1507-1508).
  3. After both Parties have been given the chance to offer testimony, the “grounds” are determined (c. 1513) and the Parties are notified.
  4. Further evidence is gathered (c. 1516). Primarily, these means the witnesses submit testimony. At any time, further witnesses can be suggested to the Judge so that they can also testify.
  5. When the Judge determines that the evidence is complete, the testimony is “published” meaning you and the Petitioner are given the opportunity to read the testimony and, if desired, offer a rebuttal or clarifications (c. 1598).
  6. The case is “concluded”–meaning the investigation phase is complete (c. 1599). The advocates for the Parties and the Defender of the Bond are now invited to make statements. Speaking of advocates, given what you have stated thus far, you may want to ask the Tribunal to suggest names of advocates so that you can have some competent assistance in this process.
  7. The case proceeds to a definitive Sentence by the Judge(s) (cc. 1607ff).
There are other steps after this but they depend on the contents of the Sentence (i.e., if the decision is in favor of the bond or not). I don’t see a need to get into that at this point.

You should also know that your dating a Catholic woman at this time is not a wise idea, especially considering your apparent belief that your marriage is a valid one. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you and it’s not that you think the marriage is valid or invalid but that you are simply saying you did not contribute to its demise.

The Code of Canon Law (which tends to be rather technical and, not surprisingly, “legalistic” in this section on judicial processes) can be found here: vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_INDEX.HTM

You’ll want to go to Book VII, part II.

I hope this makes sense and is of some help to you.

Dan
 
Hello

My ex-wife seeks to annul the marriage on the grounds that I have bipolar disorder. I do have bipolar disorder, but it has always been managed, I have never taken a day off work, and my psychiatrist will write a letter attesting to the same. The fact that I have bipolar disorder in no way affected my ability to decide to get married.

I am not Roman Catholic myself but I am a devout Christian. I do not agree with the church’s position on Divorce but I respect it. What I cannot stomach is that that the Church could say, at my ex-wife’s request, that I never meant to be married and wasn’t capable of marriage and didn’t enter into the marriage in good faith. It was her who cheated throughout the marriage. Have I any recourse here or is the annulment process simply a rubber-stamp so that my ex-wife can remarry with impunity?

Can anyone advise me how to move forward with this?

Thanks
Generally speaking, it is a good idea to contact your tribunal and ask to speak with a canonist about your concerns. The annulment process is not a rubber stamp affair. The burden of proof against the validity of the marriage is on the petitioner (and respondent if respondent likewise wants it) against the presumed validity. There are very few times when a tribunal would say a person entered marriage in bad faith- usually that would have to do with outright fraud or abduction or similar situations. You have the right to an advocate in the process, usually a canon lawyer.
 
Do you think, given the interest of women in these issues, that it would be wise to remove the unfortunate sex-specific salutation at the beginning of the encyclical?

ENCYCLICAL LETTER***
**** HUMANAE VITAE*
OF THE SUPREME PONTIFF
PAUL VI
TO HIS VENERABLE BROTHERS
THE PATRIARCHS, ARCHBISHOPS, BISHOPS
AND OTHER LOCAL ORDINARIES
IN PEACE AND COMMUNION WITH THE APOSTOLIC SEE,
TO THE CLERGY AND FAITHFUL OF THE WHOLE CATHOLIC WORLD, AND TO ALL MEN OF GOOD WILL,
ON THE REGULATION OF BIRTH

Honored Brothers and Dear Sons,
Health and Apostolic Benediction.
 
I realize this is all wrapped up in the emotional turmoil you have experienced at the hands of your wife, but really, exactly how has the Church mistreated you? They have sent you, the respondent, the exact same letter they send every respondent-- Catholic or otherwise. You will have the opportunity to talk to them face to face, to ask questions, and if the case movs forward to give testimony and have witnesses. I really don’t see how this is mistreatment in any way.

This first step is a discussion process to see how, or even IF, the process will move forward. You are not being asked for witnesses and their testimony at this point. You are being asked to reply affirmative or negative on whether or not you plan to participate and to set up a meeting with them if you are going to participate so they can explain the process and get a general understanding of your position.
This is why I am confused. I have been asked for witnesses and testimony. I have been asked to nominated three witnesses and provide a written response and attend an interview, as well as to have my witnesses submit written responses. And all this is before I have been told on what grounds my marriage was never valid. I’m not sure that’s due process.
 
I appreciate the time everyone has taken in answering my concerns. The the bottom of it is this - The Catholic Church is an institution that does note believe in Divorce, and in said institution, you can not remarry if you choose divorce. I do not agree with that stance. I believe that divorce is sometimes the best way forward for all involved. I’m not contesting the church’s view, merely saying that I don’t agree with it. My ex-wife also professes to believe in it.

My issue is that if a person claims to agree with this principal, but when considering divorce says things like “don’t worry - I’ll say you’re crazy and get an annulment”, and proceeds to do so, then that is tantamount to a divorce. If the Church does not believe in divorce, that is their prerogative. But from everything I’ve read, both here and elsewhere, including quite a bit of what is being said at the Vatican level about the doing out of annulments in North America as compared to everywhere else in the world, Annulment has become, in some if not many cases, a Catholic divorce. I’ve seen this in action and I’m seeing it now. People like my ex-wife want it both ways. They want to be able to say that marriage is forever, and then when it falls apart, say, “oh, except in this case.” I find it hypocritical. If you are in the church and decide you want a divorce, then, by the church’s belief system, you should be choosing not to have another Catholic marriage.

The degree of “being Catholic” seems to stretch from the belief in big ceremonies and big white dresses at first communions, as is my wife’s Catholic tradition, to people who spend time in prayer every day and for whom the Church has changed their lives, as is my girlfriend’s. Yet it was perfectly acceptable for me to marry a “Good Catholic” who decreed that we didn’t need to say grace in our home but dresses our daughter to the nines if the Bishop is going to be in church, but “a bad idea” to date a woman who has taught that same daughter about spirituality, because the girlfriend doesn’t agree with every point in the Catechism.

I recognize that there are a vast number of Catholics who are spiritual and who love the Lord as my girlfriend and I do. But I also contend that there are a large number for whom the church is only about appearances, being seen at mass, and going through the motions. This is the sort of Catholic I lived with.

Yes I am in a lot of pain over my ex-wife’s actions, not the least of which is this latest action, but now the Catholic church is about to become another weapon of hers and another agent of that pain. I appreciate the (name removed by moderator)ut that annulments do not always work that I have received on this board from well-meaning people, but a bit of investigation into how the diocese runs from a clergyperson here has also revealed to me that not one case was known of by that person where an annulment did not go through if enough time and money were invested. And that is a sad state of affairs.

So I thank you all for you (name removed by moderator)ut and I must leave this discussion here. I have gained a lot of valuable information and support and I don’t think it’s healthy for me at this point, given my emotional rawness, to continue down a road of (albeit interesting and intelligent) debate on the subject. Perhaps I’ll come back with an update for all who were kind enough to contribute.

With thanks, and blessings to you all.
 
My issue is that if a person claims to agree with this principal, but when considering divorce says things like “don’t worry - I’ll say you’re crazy and get an annulment”, and proceeds to do so, then that is tantamount to a divorce.
This.

This needs to be included in your testimony. If she really said that, the tribunal needs to know it.
 
ElanorRigby,

Thank you for sharing in your last post. It is obvious how much hurt you are going through.

It does appear that your ex is trying to use the church as a “weapon” - but that does not mean that the Church IS a weapon in that way. And yes - there are many concerns about the number of annulments issued but there too, it is a deep and complex issue that may have less to do with actual abuses in the Annulment process itself than with catechesis and marriage prep areas…I am not sufficiently informed in these areas to comment further.

As already stated, your best bet is to get with someone in the Church who can adequately advise you so that you can do all that you can to see that, whatever the outcome of the process is, that you have done everything honestly and above board.

Then - when it all finally settles out, you will hopefully be able to move on.

God Bless

Peace
James
 
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