Filioque Debate

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It’s not just that the words are different. Nicea made no ontological statement about the Holy Spirit. Constantinople did.
Huh, again incorrect. I’ll let you explain how the NIcene Creed isn’t ontological. There is “no” difference in belief but in wording. The divinity of Christ was defended in all three case’s with further contemplation on the HS. The fundamental basis of both creeds today are identical…and according to the principles of ontology. And according to an “eastern” saint? And as we see the natural procession of change is in play as it “always” is east and west.

Perhaps re-reading the first 3-centuries will display just how different tradition is “today” and in the east. And by the way I doubt removing the honey and milk affected anyones salvation. And for sure the creed didn’t change anything. In fact it centers correct understanding of the Incarnation. Which imho is the issue almost everywhere but the apostolic church’s.

There’s a long list of “change”. You may live in an old house as the analogy states above. But then again so does the west. We are talking difference in degree not kind.

And again there could be NO BIGGER change and as repeated through every century than concluding no need for communion with the Bishop of Rome is a path to salvation. That is historically incorrect, and historically condemned. So frankly I have a good deal of conflict understanding these polemical tracts.

Sounds to me like “we will keep the milk and honey, and forget the salvation”.

So no I don’t see any difference with the understanding of the Creed…“words” 😊
 
It’s not just that the words are different. Nicea made no ontological statement about the Holy Spirit. Constantinople did.
It clearly made an ontological statement about Jesus: that he was incarnate and became man. Then Constantinople came along and added that Jesus became incarnate "by the Holy Spirit. " That shouldn’t be possible according to your criteria.
 
4th Constantinople
5th Constantinople

That’s off the top of my head.
So at these two ecumenical councils, the Western Patriarch along with those from the east declared himself and the west to be heretical and schismatic?
 
So at these two ecumenical councils, the Western Patriarch along with those from the east declared himself and the west to be heretical and schismatic?
The 879-880 council of Constantinople was not even ecumenical. It’s doubtful at best. The later synods listed are not ecumenical either not even within his own communion
 
It clearly made an ontological statement about Jesus: that he was incarnate and became man. Then Constantinople came along and added that Jesus became incarnate "by the Holy Spirit. " That shouldn’t be possible according to your criteria.
That is simply making an economic statement about our salvation. Nicea did not make an ontological statement about the Holy Spirit. Constantinople did. It clearly expressed that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The filioque then changes that and says the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. They are two different teachings.
 
The 879-880 council of Constantinople was not even ecumenical. It’s doubtful at best. The later synods listed are not ecumenical either not even within his own communion
According to you. I wouldn’t expect Catholics to accept as authoritative a council that condemns a teaching they now say is dogmatic.
 
I personally enjoy debating with you Randy and other Catholics, and I especially like trading scripture - but from the Lutheran perspective, interpretation of Scripture is a practice of the Church.
Ben-

You’re the Lutheran, not me, but wasn’t the individual right to read and interpret scripture a large part of what the Reformation was all about. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Protestants routinely argue the perspicuity of Scripture and that they don’t need the Catholic Church to interpret the Bible for them.

Now, you’ve said, “from the Lutheran perspective, interpretation of Scripture is a practice of the Church.”

What am I misunderstanding?
I suspect that perhaps our Orthodox friends are of the similar disposition. (again perhaps) That they already know how the Orthodox church behaves, so they don’t need to rely on scripture as an affirmative defense.
Can you imagine me arguing that line of reasoning with a Baptist in the Apologetics forum? 'Well, this is how the Catholic Church behaves…I don’t need to justify it on the basis of scripture."
 
According to you. I wouldn’t expect Catholics to accept as authoritative a council that condemns a teaching they now say is dogmatic.
Is "ecumenical’ or “not ecumenical” a matter of one’s opinion? Why is that you get to decide what is authoritative and what is not?
 
That is simply making an economic statement about our salvation.
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I see. So now statements in the creed about the economic activity of God can be changed, but not His immanent activity? I find that terribly arbitrary. Do you have some patristic or other support for this?
]Constantinople did. It clearly expressed that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The filioque then changes that and says the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. They are two different teachings.
By your definition then it is also two different teachings that: (1) Jesus was incarnate and became man (Nicaea) and (2) Jesus was incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and became man (Constantinople). If you want to equivocate the word “different” with “added,” then so be it. It applies equally to the example I just gave you.
 
It clearly expressed that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. The filioque then changes that and says the Spirit proceeds from the Father and the Son. They are two different teachings.
Point being they are words with the exact same ontology. Or you don’t agree with this? Then it would most interesting to explain the difference since we both state the Holy Spirit proceeds from one principle-The Father.

Oh I was wondering what does begotten mean in your understanding without time or cause? Because I think we can safely arrive at Father and Son through this path.
 
Is "ecumenical’ or “not ecumenical” a matter of one’s opinion? Why is that you get to decide what is authoritative and what is not?
The Church decides if it’s authoritative. A council doesn’t require the title “ecumenical” to be a true, authoritative council. Some do name 4th and 5th Constantinople as ecumenical. They are absolutely as authoritative as the seven ecumenical councils.
 
.

I see. So now statements in the creed about the economic activity of God can be changed, but not His immanent activity? I find that terribly arbitrary. Do you have some patristic or other support for this?

By your definition then it is also two different teachings that: (1) Jesus was incarnate and became man (Nicaea) and (2) Jesus was incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit and became man (Constantinople). If you want to equivocate the word “different” with “added,” then so be it. It applies equally to the example I just gave you.
You are quibbling over words. What is important is the teaching. Scripture says Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit. It also says, quite clearly, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. You are setting up a false dilemma that really is quite ridiculous. No one says you can’t better explain a teaching or understand it more deeply. The first clause you cite simply expands on an already existing teaching. The filioque changes the existing teaching.
 
The Church decides if it’s authoritative. A council doesn’t require the title “ecumenical” to be a true, authoritative council. Some do name 4th and 5th Constantinople as ecumenical. They are absolutely as authoritative as the seven ecumenical councils.
LOL. And if I told you that we hold a certain council to be as authoritative as an ecumenical council because our Church says so, I don’t have to ask what your reaction would be.

In any case, we might be talking about two different councils when we speak of the 4th Council of Constantinople:

*The Fourth Council of Constantinople (Roman Catholic) was the eighth Catholic Ecumenical Council held in Constantinople from October 5, 869, to February 28, 870. It included 102 bishops, three papal legates, and four patriarchs.[1] The Council met in ten sessions from October 869 to February 870 and issued 27 canons.

The council was called by Emperor Basil I the Macedonian and Pope Adrian II.[2] It deposed Photios, a layman who had been appointed as Patriarch of Constantinople, and reinstated his predecessor Ignatius.

The Council also reaffirmed the decisions of the Second Council of Nicaea in support of icons and holy images and required the image of Christ to have veneration equal with that of the gospel book.[3]

A later council, the Greek Fourth Council of Constantinople, was held after Photios had been reinstated on the order of the emperor. Today, the Roman Catholic Church recognizes the council in 869–870 as “Constantinople IV”, while the Eastern Orthodox Churches recognize the councils in 879–880 as “Constantinople IV” and revere Photios as a saint. At the time that these councils were being held, this division was not yet clear.[4] These two councils represent a growing divide between East and West. The previous seven ecumenical councils are recognized as ecumenical and authoritative by both Eastern Orthodox and Catholic Christians. These kinds of differences led eventually to the East-West Schism of 1054.* - Wikki
 
The “Filioque” was inserted by Western theologians and local councils to combat the heresies of Arianism, Adoptionism, and Priscillianism - all of which denied the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Such heresies declared Christ essentially inferior to the Father. Western theologians and Spanish councils began to insist that the Holy Spirit proceeded “ex Patre et Filio” or “ex Patre Filioque” (“from the Father and the Son”) in order to stress the equality of the Son with the Father in the Blessed Trinity. The Arians regarded the Son as a creature; the Adoptionists regarded the Son as an adopted son of God. The followers of Priscillian denied the real distinction of the three Divine Persons. All denied that Christ was “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God” as the original Nicene Creed of 325 had declared.

Under the influence of that extraordinary genius, St. Augustine of Hippo, Western theologians and local Western councils in Spain, France, England, and Germany proclaimed the equality of the Father and Son in the Godhead. If the Eternal Son did not participate equally in the Father’s breathing forth the Spirit from all eternity, then, as the heretics claimed, the Son was NOT equal to Him. The Son was inferior to the Father. The divinity of the Son was at stake.

So, the “Filioque” signifying that the Holy Spirit also proceeded from the Son as well as from the Father found its way into catechetical explanations of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in the 5th century. In the next century, the Filioque began to be recited or chanted as part of the creed during Mass. As Yves Congar, O.P., author of a monumental work the Holy Spirit, noted: “The ‘Filioque’ was probably added [to the Creed] during the last decade of the 6th century in Gaul and in Spain and it was accepted in good faith that it came from Nicaea-Constantinople.”

Western theologians never considered the addition of the “Filioque” to contradict the teaching of a Council which was, incidentally, a purely local Eastern Synod of 150 Bishops with no Western Bishops present. The See of Rome was not present. This First Council of Constantinople did not begin to receive assured Ecumenical status until years later when a vote in the 4th session of the Council of Chalcedon accepted its Creed as a rule of faith and when the Popes registered approval of Constantinople I’s dogmatic declarations.

Source: James Likoudis, The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and Modern Eastern Orthodoxy, pp.16-17).
 
The “Filioque” was inserted by Western theologians and local councils to combat the heresies of Arianism, Adoptionism, and Priscillianism - all of which denied the divinity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. Such heresies declared Christ essentially inferior to the Father. Western theologians and Spanish councils began to insist that the Holy Spirit proceeded “ex Patre et Filio” or “ex Patre Filioque” (“from the Father and the Son”) in order to stress the equality of the Son with the Father in the Blessed Trinity. The Arians regarded the Son as a creature; the Adoptionists regarded the Son as an adopted son of God. The followers of Priscillian denied the real distinction of the three Divine Persons. All denied that Christ was “God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God” as the original Nicene Creed of 325 had declared.

Under the influence of that extraordinary genius, St. Augustine of Hippo, Western theologians and local Western councils in Spain, France, England, and Germany proclaimed the equality of the Father and Son in the Godhead. If the Eternal Son did not participate equally in the Father’s breathing forth the Spirit from all eternity, then, as the heretics claimed, the Son was NOT equal to Him. The Son was inferior to the Father. The divinity of the Son was at stake.

So, the “Filioque” signifying that the Holy Spirit also proceeded from the Son as well as from the Father found its way into catechetical explanations of the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed in the 5th century. In the next century, the Filioque began to be recited or chanted as part of the creed during Mass. As Yves Congar, O.P., author of a monumental work the Holy Spirit, noted: “The ‘Filioque’ was probably added [to the Creed] during the last decade of the 6th century in Gaul and in Spain and it was accepted in good faith that it came from Nicaea-Constantinople.”

Western theologians never considered the addition of the “Filioque” to contradict the teaching of a Council which was, incidentally, a purely local Eastern Synod of 150 Bishops with no Western Bishops present. The See of Rome was not present. This First Council of Constantinople did not begin to receive assured Ecumenical status until years later when a vote in the 4th session of the Council of Chalcedon accepted its Creed as a rule of faith and when the Popes registered approval of Constantinople I’s dogmatic declarations.

Source: James Likoudis, The Divine Primacy of the Bishop of Rome and Modern Eastern Orthodoxy, pp.16-17).
👍 And the excuse at Florence and its validity though all signed but one, that the East was absent of a Patriarch which is why the Council isn’t recognized. Yet when Rome claims the exact same in regards to Constance, then we also see and here what happens. Its forced on us as fact.
This decree, however, is not considered valid by the Magisterium of the Catholic Church, since it was never approved by Pope Gregory XII or his successors, and was passed by the Council in a session “before his confirmation”
Watch…
The Eastern Church refused to consider the agreement reached at Florence binding, since the death of Joseph II had for the moment left it without a Patriarch of Constantinople.
🤷
 
Are these two statements correct?


  1. *]The First Council of Constantinople is considered to be an ecumenical council despite the fact that no Western Bishops were in attendance.

    *]Vatican I is not considered an ecumenical council (by the Orthodox) because of the fact that no Eastern Bishops were in attendance.

    Questions:

    1. *]If Bishops from East and West were not required to be in attendance at Constantinople I, why would the presence of Bishops from East and West be required at Vatican I?

      *]Why does the absence of Eastern Bishops at Vatican I invalidate it as an ecumenical council?
 
According to you. I wouldn’t expect Catholics to accept as authoritative a council that condemns a teaching they now say is dogmatic.
Nevermind the scandalous history surrounding the council. The council never condemned the filioque… The condemnation of those who add anything to the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed was clearly aimed at the Latin practice of adding the term filioque, though it is not mentioned.
If anyone, however, dares to rewrite and call Rule of Faith some other exposition besides that of the sacred Symbol which has been spread abroad from above by our blessed and holy Fathers even as far as ourselves, and to snatch the authority of the confession of those divine men and impose on it his own invented phrases (idiais euresiologiais) and put this forth as a common lesson to the faithful or to those who return from some kind of heresy, and display the audacity to falsify completely (katakibdeleusai apothrasuntheie) the antiquity of this sacred and venerable Horos (Rule) with illegitimate words, or additions, or subtractions, such a person should, according to the vote of the holy and Ecumenical Synods, which has been already acclaimed before us, be subjected to complete defrocking if he happens to be one of the clergymen, or be sent away with an anathema if he happens to be one of the lay people.
In support of this judgment, Photius supposedly presented a letter from Pope John VIII denouncing the practice of adding anything to the Creed. Yet even Dvornik admits that this letter is a clear forgery, and is unmentioned before the fourteenth century. Even if the Pope had really agreed with his legates’ assent to the above decree, there is nothing here that repudiates the Catholic doctrine that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. No doctrinal statement on divine procession is even presented. Though Photius certainly believed that procession from the Son was a heresy, he diplomatically refrained from including such a declaration in the council’s judgment. Thus we are left only with a general disciplinary rule against adding anything to the Creed, under pain of anathema.
 
With regards to the questionable nature of the council and its supposed authority; Apart from probable revocation of Photius’ excommunication, there is no evidence that Pope John ever assented to the content of the Photian synod of 879-880. He took no action, as far as the historical evidence shows from his numerous letters, against the addition of filioque to the Creed by Frankish clerics. He hardly can be said to have repudiated the Council of 869-870 as wrongfully condemning Photius; on the contrary, he had asked Photius to apologize for his past crimes. It is practically certain, from everything we know about John’s views on papal primacy (which show even in the edited letters accepted at the Photian synod) and his esteem for Nicholas, that he would not repudiate the previous council, and his ingratiating letter to Basil proves only that he was deceived as to the content of the Photian counter-synod.

There are no more references to Photius in the letters and decrees of Pope John. A late ninth-century compiler of the acts of the Eighth Ecumenical Council (869-70) tells the following story. When the Pope learned what really happened at the Photian synod, he sent the cleric Marinus to Constantinople to declare invalid what the legates had done. Marinus was mistreated and imprisoned for thirty days. Upon Marinus’ return to Rome, Pope John stood on the pulpit and anathematized Photius and anyone who supports him. Marinus renewed the anathema when he became Pope in 882.

In support of this story, we find that Pope Stephen V (VI) wrote to Emperor Basil in 885-886 that Photius was still trying to get the Council (of 869-70) abrogated. Naturally, this does not make sense if John had already abrogated it. We have already noted that it is implausible that John would nullify or repudiate the Council, but acknowledge that he may have at least ended the excommunication of Photius in the interests of peace.

On the contrary supposition that the popes from John VIII through Stephen V were on friendly terms with Photius, we have only the claims of Photius himself, a known prevaricator on such matters, as proved in earlier controversies. Yet the exact nature of papal attitudes toward Photius from 880 to 885 is uncertain.

Pope Stephen, for his part, certainly denied the legitimacy of Photius as patriarch. When explaining to Basil why he did not write about a recently assembled Constantinopolitan synod, Pope Stephen says:
"But to whom was the Roman Church to write? To the layman Photius? If you had a patriarch, our Church would often communicate with him by letter. But for our love for you, we should have been compelled to inflict on the prevaricator Photius more severe penalties than our predecessors have done.”
Basil was dead when this letter arrived, and the new emperor Leo VI used it as justification to depose Photius in 886.

Some of the anti-Photian bishops would not accept Leo’s new patriarch, Stephen, on account of the fact that he had been ordained by Photius. According to a Greek codex that includes Pope Stephen’s letter, Emperor Leo wrote to these anti-Photians, saying:
But if, seeing that he was ordained deacon by Photius, you would rather not communicate with him until you have consulted with the Romans who condemned Photius, let us write and ask the Pope to grant a dispensation from censures to those ordained by Photius. Accordingly the emperor wrote to the Pope, as did also Stylian of Neocaesarea and his friends.
Evidently, Leo and various anti-Photians considered that the Roman anathemas against Photius had never been lifted, so that even those ordained by Photius should be kept out of communion.
 
You are quibbling over words.
With respect Seraphim, you are the one who insisted that there is some meaningful distinction between the addition of the filioque and the plethora of other additions made to the creed by Constantinople; based upon whether one is an “economic” reality or an “ontological/immanent” reality. I’m simply addressing your argument.
What is important is the teaching. Scripture says Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit. It also says, quite clearly, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father.
Well that certainly is an argument; just not the argument you made above. I would fully agree with you that if the filioque contradicts Scripture, then the Catholic Church is wrong and must remove it.
You are setting up a false dilemma that really is quite ridiculous. No one says you can’t better explain a teaching or understand it more deeply.
Again, it is you who insisted that there is some real difference in this instance between “changing” an existing teaching and “understanding it more deeply.” To you it may seem obvious that the addition of the filioque is a “change” to an existing teaching while all the other additions (incarnate by the Holy Spirit, Jesus seated at the right hand of the Father, the Holy Spirit being co-glorified with the Father and the Son, etc.) are so-called “better explanations” of existing teachings. The difference is not apparent to me, and even if it were, it still doesn’t remove the arbitrariness of your claim.
The first clause you cite simply expands on an already existing teaching.
That’s exactly what the Catholic Church claims about the filioque.
The filioque changes the existing teaching.
It’s odd then that the Cappadocian Fathers (who were living during Constantinople I) teach at length about attributes of the Immanent Trinity not found in the creed; including that the Holy Spirit proceeds through the Son.
 
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