Filioque Debate

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“The Father and the Son is One”, the filioque never contradicts this divine revelation from Jesus recorded in the memoirs of the Apostles. The filioque confirms from scripture “and the Word became flesh”, suggesting that there never was a time that the Word was not God, to include; “I am in the Father” supports the filioque.

Jesus teaches; “if you seen me, you have seen the Father” which supports the filioque, and elsewhere; " But if I go, I will send Him (paraclete) to you" and again, “He (paraclete) will glorify me, for He will take what is mine and declare it to you, All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that He (paralclete) will take what is mine and declare it to you”.

“All that the Father has is mine” is a direct teaching from CCC relating to the filioque.

Because Jesus said the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, we are to excommunicate Him because Jesus added clarification or changed His theology, when Jesus teaches that He will send the Holy Spirit to us?

Interesting that you said this Seraphim73; Constantinople, whether you claim this council did not change the Nicene Creed, but added to the Nicene Creed. Does not the anathema still apply to the council of Constantinople for it’s addition?

I think it is clear from the development of the Nicene Creed from it’s changes or additions from these two early councils, disqualifies your non Apostolic traditional reason to faith and development.

You said; “No one says you can’t better explain a teaching or understand it more deeply”.

Did not the councils develop her doctrines from the Apostolic sacred Traditions using your own perspective? Did not the Pope at a later time use this same reasoning and faith to defeat heretics in the West with the filioque and the same Creed, which was changed, added from earlier Church councils?

You say the filioque changed the Creed, so did the earlier the Church councils of Nicea and Constantinople. The difference here is; That neither the filioque nor the insertion into the Creed from Nicea or Constantinoplle ever change the apostolic faith handed down to us from Jesus and His apostles.

I have a question for you Seraphim? Why did the Eastern Church’s find it necessary to invent or introduce and develope a Nicene Creed when the Church already had the Apostles Creed in practice?

If you find it necessary to make such a case of the filioque that changes the existing Apostolic faith, then it remains to be proven by those who hold to such a claim.

Do you think, your same claim; if spoken from the Nicea Council? would made any impact to the Council of Constantinople who added or changed the Nicene Creed?

Using your reasoning when it is professed from the Nicene Creed the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, does not the filioque apply when the “first clause you cite simply expands on an already existing teaching”?

Is it not ridiculous to apply a secular reason and tradition to an Already Apostolic Tradition of reason and faith to develop Church doctrine against any heretics or heresies in every and any age which predate Constantinople and post Constantinople to the present?

Peace be with you
Again this is a very strange and fallacious line of reasoning. None of the things you cite state that the Spirit proceeds from the Son. You are setting up a gigantic straw man on the question on Constantinople. Again, no one ever said a teaching can’t be clarified. If the Church can’t speak for the Church then I’m not sure why we are talking about anything. But what the Church cannot do is change a teaching.
 
Does the Spirit participate equally in the Father’s begetting of the Son from all eternity? If not, does this make the Spirit not equal to the Father? Is the Spirit inferior to the Father? Is the teaching of the divinity of the Spirit not at stake?
And just a thought off the top of my head, would we also say that if the Father does not proceed from the Son and/or the Spirit, then somehow they are not equal to the Father?

So, I’m guessing that theologians have technical explanations for how this works, but I don’t have this in the forefront of my mind at present.
 
For the life of me Seraphim, I have no clue to who informed you that the filioque has the Son as being the Cause of the Holy Spirit?

Can you please provide any authoritative source? I keep hearing this from you, and have no clue why and where you get that view of the filioque?🤷
Look at your fellow Catholic Wandile’s posts.
 
But the Son is not begotten of the Holy Spirit so to include this would be heretical. The Son is “eternally begotten of the Father”. The Holy Spirit is the Love between the Father and the Son and therefore proceeds from both.

And before you go to the incarnation to show that the Son was conceived by the Power of the Holy Spirit we are not taking about being born, but rather “eternally begotten”. One happened in eternity, the other in time and being born is not the same as being begotten, in terms of the Trinity.
I understand all of this. In my course of earning two graduate degrees in theology, I have taken two courses in christology, a course in pneumatology, and a course in trinitarian theology. Also, my thesis dealt extensively with trinitarian theology. My point is that the claim that the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father necessitates the* filioque* is entirely unconvincing since the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Father does not necessitate teaching that the Son is eternally begotten by both the Son and the Spirit.
 
Does the Spirit participate equally in the Father’s begetting of the Son from all eternity? If not, does this make the Spirit not equal to the Father? Is the Spirit inferior to the Father? Is the teaching of the divinity of the Spirit not at stake?
The filioque clarifies this, when professed with in the Nicene Creed, when the Son is consubstantial with the Father.

Any thing more this leaves the ECF’s and the Church coucils who never attempt to define God’s Essence eternal in being.
 
Eastern Catholics generally do not include the *filioque *when singing/reciting the Creed.

The reason for my question is not a matter of rejecting the filioque per se. Rather, I find the claim that the denial of the filioque essentially denies the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father to be entirely unconvincing since the same people who make the argument that the Son must share in the spirating of the Spirit if he is consubstantial with the Father do not also insist that the Spirit must share in the begetting of the Son if he is consubstantial with the Father.
For the life of me Seraphim, I have no clue to who informed you that the filioque has the Son as being the Cause of the Holy Spirit?

Can you please provide any authoritative source? I keep hearing this from you, and have no clue why and where you get that view of the filioque?🤷
It seems he struggles with the idea if the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son as from one principle…, The quotes from St.Athanasius were meant to help him understand this very teaching from the council if Florence but maybe this might explain it better :

St. Justin Martyr
The Holy Spirit who proceeds from the Father immediately, as from Him, and mediately, as from the Son
Or as St Hilary of Pottiers says :
" we are bound to confess Him, proceeding, as He does from the father and the son"
“May I receive your Spirit Who takes His being from You through Your Son”
 
This is a straw man although a respectable one. Your objection is based on a confusion of the divine persons.

The Son must participate in the procession of the Holy Spirit because the Son is everything the Father is except being the Father. That is; The only difference between the Father and the Son is that the Father begets the Son and the Son is begotten of the Father. That is why the Father is called The Father and the Son called The Son.

The Holy Spirit need not participate in the begetting of the Son because that is a property of the Father alone. The sole reason why the Father is called the Father is because he ** begets**. This is the only reason… Whereas the procession of the Holy Spirit is not what makes the Father the Father nor does it make the Son the Son. As such; all that is the fathers is the Son’s (John 16:15) and whatever the Father does the Son does also (John 5:19)
I’m not at all confused. I understand trinitarian theology quite well–I earned both the M.Div. and the Th.M. and have studied trinitarian theology under scholars respected around the globe.

My objection is not to the* filioque per se*. My objection is to the claim that the consubstantiality of person somehow necessitates the filioque. If denying the filioque denies the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father, then denying the begetting of the Son by both the Father and the Spirit (which is a heretical teaching that should be denied) denies the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Father. To assert the filioque on the basis of the teaching that the Father has shared all things with the Son except the property of begetting is not the same as saying that the consubstantiality qua consubstantiality necessitates the filioque.
 
You are quibbling over words. What is important is the teaching. Scripture says Jesus became incarnate by the power of the Holy Spirit. It also says, quite clearly, that the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father. You are setting up a false dilemma that really is quite ridiculous. No one says you can’t better explain a teaching or understand it more deeply. The first clause you cite simply expands on an already existing teaching. The filioque changes the existing teaching.
The filioque could change the existing teaching when translated from Latin into Greek, it doesn’t necessarily change the existing teaching when presented in it’s own context within the Latin Church.
 
It seems he struggles with the idea if the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father and the Son as from one principle…, The quotes from St.Athanasius were meant to help him understand this very teaching from the council if Florence but maybe this might explain it better :

St. Justin Martyr
No, I do not struggle with this at all. Furthermore, as I’ve already stated, I’m not calling into question the filioque itself. I’m calling into question the reasoning that the consubstantiality of persons necessitates that the Word participate in the generation of the Spirit. If the consubstantiality of the three necessitates that the Son participate in the generation of the Spirit, then it would also necessitate that the Spirit participate in the generation of the Son. Finally, it would necessitate that the Son and the Spirit together generate the Father, whom we know to be without origin.
 
Seraphim73;12511371]How do you know the Son is not begotten of the Holy Spirit. The Spirit is God and the Father is God correct?
Because God did not reveal this to us, the ECF’s do not teach such a view, nor do any church councils ever suggest the So is begotten of the Holy Spirit.

What you introduce here is not professed from the filioque nor the Nicene Creed. It’s straw man objection the filioque.
How can the Spirit and the Father be of the same substance if the Spirit does not beget the Son as well?
What you relate to here deals with the eternal Essence of God. Unless you can define for us what is the Eternal Essence of God, then maybe you can answer your question? Apart from your suggestion it contradicts all of what the Church teaches about the Essence of God which does not come down to us.

Do you make the self claim that you know God’s Eternal Essence?
 
No, I do not struggle with this at all. Furthermore, as I’ve already stated, I’m not calling into question the filioque itself. I’m calling into question the reasoning that the consubstantiality of persons necessitates that the Word participate in the generation of the Spirit. If the consubstantiality of the three necessitates that the Son participate in the generation of the Spirit, then it would also necessitate that the Spirit participate in the generation of the Son. Finally, it would necessitate that the Son and the Spirit together generate the Father, whom we know to be without origin.
I was replying to Gabriel’s remark . My answer was speaking about seraphim.

I quoted you by mistake. My apologies
 
I hate to a whistle blower here, but this needs to be said, before we continue to leave the filioque debate.

The filioque relates to the eternal procession not Essence of God, as professed within the Nicene Creed, just as the profession of faith of the filioque compliments the eternal procession of the Holy Spirit proceeds from the Father, when the Nicene Creed professes the Son is consubstantial with the Father, the filioque professes here, the Holy spirit eternally proceeds from the Father and Son.

Anything added or changed apart from the Nicene Creed in regards to the filioque abuses the CCC which teaches that we are not to add rigid terms to this procession “filioque” from what is already professed with in the Nicene Creed, of the Son is consubstantial with the Father the Holy Spirit eternally proceeds.

Love all the post’s 🙂
 
Eastern Catholics generally do not include the *filioque *when singing/reciting the Creed.

The reason for my question is not a matter of rejecting the filioque per se. Rather, I find the claim that the denial of the filioque essentially denies the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father to be entirely unconvincing since the same people who make the argument that the Son must share in the spirating of the Spirit if he is consubstantial with the Father do not also insist that the Spirit must share in the begetting of the Son if he is consubstantial with the Father.
Well, I haven’t had much time to think about this, but a few thoughts are these:

The Father has perfect knowledge of Himself; and the idea that God has of himself cannot be imperfect. Whatever is in the Father must be in His idea of Himself, and must be exactly the same as it is in Himself. Otherwise, God would have an imperfect idea of Himself, which would be nonsense. Thus, because God is infinite, eternal, all-powerful, his idea of Himself is infinite, eternal, all-powerful. Because God is God, His idea of Himself is God. “In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God. And the Word was God.”

The Father knows and loves. His idea knows and loves. In other words, His idea is a person. Men have ideas, and any given idea is something. God’s idea of himself is not something only; it is Someone, for it can know and love.

The Thinker and the Idea are distinct, the one is not the other, Father and Son are two persons. But they are not separate.

Among men, fathers are always older than sons simply because a human being cannot start generating the moment he exists; he must wait till he develops to the point where he can generate. But God has not to wait for a certain amount of eternity to roll by before he is sufficiently developed. Eternity does not roll by; it is an abiding now; and God has all perfections in their fullness, not needing to develop. Merely by being God, he knows himself with infinite knowing power, and utters his total self-knowledge in the totally adequate idea of himself which is his co-eternal Son.

The production of a Second Person does not exhaust the infinite richness of the divine nature. Our Lord tells of a third person. There is a Spirit, to whom Our Lord will entrust his followers when He Himself shall have ascended to the Father.

Father and Son love each other, with infinite intensity. What we could not know, if it were not revealed to us, is that they unite to express their love and that the expression is a third divine person. In the Son, the Father utters his self-knowledge; in the Holy Spirit, Father and Son utter their mutual love.

Their love is infinite; its expression cannot be less. Infinite love does not express its very self finitely; it can no more produce inadequate expression than infinite knowledge can produce an inadequate idea. Each gives himself wholly to the outpouring of his love for the other, holding nothing back–indeed the very thought of holding back is ridiculous; if they give themselves at all, they can give themselves only totally–they possess nothing but their totality! The uttered love of Father and Son is infinite, lacks no perfection that they have, is God, a person, someone.

As the one great operation of spirit, knowing, produces the second person, so the other, loving, produces the third. but be careful upon this–the second proceeds from, is produced by, the first alone, but the third, the Holy Spirit, proceeds from Father and Son, as they combine to express their love. Thus, in the Nicene Creed we say of him qui ex patre filioque procedit–who proceeds from the Father and the Son; and in the Tantum Ergo we sing procedenti ab utroque–to him who proceeds from both.
 
I understand all of this. In my course of earning two graduate degrees in theology, I have taken two courses in christology, a course in pneumatology, and a course in trinitarian theology. Also, my thesis dealt extensively with trinitarian theology.
Oh.

Well, never mind my last post then. 😊
 
The reason for my question is not a matter of rejecting the filioque per se. Rather, I find the claim that the denial of the filioque essentially denies the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father to be entirely unconvincing since the same people who make the argument that the Son must share in the spirating of the Spirit if he is consubstantial with the Father do not also insist that the Spirit must share in the begetting of the Son if he is consubstantial with the Father.
I understand all of this. In my course of earning two graduate degrees in theology, I have taken two courses in christology, a course in pneumatology, and a course in trinitarian theology. Also, my thesis dealt extensively with trinitarian theology. My point is that the claim that the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father necessitates the* filioque* is entirely unconvincing since the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Father does not necessitate teaching that the Son is eternally begotten by both the Son and the Spirit.
I’m not at all confused. I understand trinitarian theology quite well–I earned both the M.Div. and the Th.M. and have studied trinitarian theology under scholars respected around the globe.

My objection is not to the* filioque per se*. My objection is to the claim that the consubstantiality of person somehow necessitates the filioque. If denying the filioque denies the consubstantiality of the Son with the Father, then denying the begetting of the Son by both the Father and the Spirit (which is a heretical teaching that should be denied) denies the consubstantiality of the Spirit with the Father. To assert the filioque on the basis of the teaching that the Father has shared all things with the Son except the property of begetting is not the same as saying that the consubstantiality qua consubstantiality necessitates the filioque.
Well, forgive this munchkin for stating the obvious folks, but we have a REAL scholar amongst us who knows more about the trinity than the rest of us put together. :yup:

So, while he objects to us hacks using poor arguments *about *the filioque, Ryan does not object to the filioque itself which he accepts as true doctrine.

Is that right, Ryan?

BTW - is your thesis available online?
 
Read my posts properly. The son is not the ultimate origin of the Holy Spirit.
For clarification;

Seraphim73 indicated from a question? the Son (Source) is begotten of the Holy Spirit, which No one ever teaches such a thing.

Wandile; your quotes of the ECF’s view the Holy Spirit proceeding or being begotten of the Father and the Son, which is not the same according to the way I have read you and Seraphim.

Upon further review; No one teaches the Son as being the sole source of the Holy Spirit being begotten of the Son.

I say this with a whisper, my favorite early Church Fathers to read is Tertullian and Origen. So I am not surprised by the quotes you provided from other Fathers about the Holy Spirit of being begotten of the Father and the Son. Yet these teachings are not professed within the Nicene Creed as per the filioque.
 
The filioque could change the existing teaching when translated from Latin into Greek, it doesn’t necessarily change the existing teaching when presented in it’s own context within the Latin Church.
BINGO:thumbsup:

Thank you SyroMalankara,👍 When I grow up, I hope to be as wise as you:)
 
Oh.

Well, never mind my last post then. 😊
lol… really Randy you wrote this to Ryan Black ? The Thinker and the Idea are distinct, the one is not the other, Father and Son are two persons. But they are not separate:)

Choking on lunch
 
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