Filioque - Distinguishing the Essence and Person of the Holy Spirit

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Btw, as an Oriental, I can accept the notion of “external activity” and “internal activity,” but I cannot comprehend the notion of “external being” and “internal being.”
I can certainly understand this.

That seems to say that God has two parts- An internal one which is different from an external one. Inner and outer parts, sounds very very strange to me. That or two beings, an inner one and an outer/external one- But that can’t be it, surely, because that means two Gods. If there are no two beings, and no parts in the one God then there simply cannot be any notions of internal and external “beings” of God. 🤷***

“Being***” speaks to a real integral thing in existence, not like activity. So internal and external activity makes sense. Certainly what God does in himself between the three persons is beyond anyone. I imagine that what goes on in my soul can be experienced by no other human, a husband or close friend- it’s just beyond them to essentially know directly (ie experentially) my “inner activity” no matter how close we are- But internal being that is not external being? That’s two different real things in their own right! Like the spiritual and sensual parts of myself, or my soul and my body! Certainly that cannot be possible of God- who is pure spirit, the one Absolute Divine nature through and through :shrug:This is just very difficult to understand without either diving the divine nature or creating a second God.

Peace.
 
I think the problem here is one of language. When one speaks of a “procession of hypostasis,” one is referring and can ONLY refer to the activity of ekporeusai, i.e., origination. But when one speaks of the “procession of ousia,” one can speak EITHER of the activity of ekporeusai OR the activity of proienai/procedit. They are two distinguishable (though inseparable) activities. We cannot speak of ekporeusai (i.e., origination) as an activity of the Son, because that is a hypostatic property of the Father alone. But we CAN speak of proienai/procedit (i.e., proceeding) as an activity of the Father and the Son, for it is a property that the Father has given to the Son.
A poor translation of terms is not a legitimate source for developing a novel doctrinal theory. After all, the Holy Spirit receives His existence from the Father alone by εκπόρευσις, and it is vitally important that His hypostatic procession (εκπόρευσις) of origin not be confused with His manifesting progression (προϊέναι) from the Father through the Son. Sadly, the Latin translation of the Greek terms εκπόρευσις and προϊέναι by the single word processio causes theological confusion, because it fails to take into account the two theological realities that are being conveyed in the original Greek language and causes a false equivalence between these two different Greek words, and the theological meanings connected with them. Now clearly it is this false equivalence - made possible by a poor translation - that makes possible the creation of a “new doctrine” (i.e., the filioque), a doctrinal theory that has no support in either the Greek New Testament or the Greek patristic tradition.
 
A poor translation of terms is not a legitimate source for developing a novel doctrinal theory. After all, the Holy Spirit receives His existence from the Father alone by εκπόρευσις, and it is vitally important that His hypostatic procession (εκπόρευσις) of origin not be confused with His manifesting progression (προϊέναι) from the Father through the Son. Sadly, the Latin translation of the Greek terms εκπόρευσις and προϊέναι by the single word processio causes theological confusion, because it fails to take into account the two theological realities that are being conveyed in the original Greek language and causes a false equivalence between these two different Greek words, and the theological meanings connected with them. Now clearly it is this false equivalence - made possible by a poor translation - that makes possible the creation of a “new doctrine” (i.e., the filioque), a doctrinal theory that has no support in either the Greek New Testament or the Greek patristic tradition.
This is the first time I’ve heard the term “manifesting progression”. Could you explain what this means?
 
I have found the larger work from which that quotation comes, and I couldn’t find anywhere that St. Gregory says that the Son participates in the hypostatic procession of the Holy Spirit (in fact, most mentions of through the Son in that work seem to be referring to the economy), so I’m not so sure that’s what he meant. If I recall, even Marduk’s opinion is that the Son does not cause the person of the Holy Spirit.
He doesn’t mention it in any other part of that work, but that isn’t really important. The point is that he does mention that the Son is the “intermediary” in the procession of the Holy Spirit, and he does so quite explicitly. He says, in preface to this portion of the text that I quoted, that he is describing the causes of the Divine Persons themselves, their origins, and he most definitely puts the Son “between” the Father and the Holy Spirit.

I suggest that the only reason you’re having difficulty with what he means is that you are coming to the text with the presupposition that he can’t mean the filioque, despite the fact that his plain language not only indicates the filioque but actually rules out any notion that he’s speaking in terms of economic or “energetic” manifestation. He even uses the nature of this “intermediary Procession” to guard the “only-Begotteness” of the Son, which surely proves that he’s speaking of direct causal relations in the Trinity and not some external manifestation.
At any rate, I’m not so sure that the issue is quite as simple as the patristic witness being clear evidence for the filioque. That relies on a lot of odd grammatical assumptions, firstly that αιτία is equivalent to both source and cause in Latin, and that the Greek speaking Fathers only meant source when using αιτία in that context (and that they were thinking with the Aristotelian metaphysics which provided the framework for medieval scholasticism, which is not apparent at all), and that ex patre filioque is grammatically equivalent to ex patre per filium.
Actually you have my points mixed up, which is likely my fault in not being clearer.

Aitia is not equivalent to both source and cause in Latin, but rather in Greek it is a term that can be used broadly or narrowly. Narrowly it is synonymous with source, and this is how it is often used by the Greek Fathers; this isn’t an odd grammatical assumption, but simply a fact, as can be seen in the quote of St. Gregory’s where he speaks of the Father alone with the term “cause” (aitia in the original), yet clearly states that the Holy Spirit is “by the Son”. Broadly, however, it can have many meanings depending on the context, and this can be seen in its many uses in Aristotle and other philosophers. It is the Latins, not the Greeks, who use cause in this broad sense theologically.

As for ex Patre Filioque being grammatically equivalent to ex Patre per Filium, they are not equivalent and I wouldn’t claim that they are. Ex Patre per Filium is a more problematic expression, however, because it does not imply consubstantiality of the Holy Spirit. “Per” does not simply mean “through” as in “passing through” in Latin, it can also mean “by” and imply metaphysical distance, such as the President acting through the army. When we say such a thing we mean precisely that the President himself is not where the army is fighting, and it is much the same in Latin. If the Latin were say “per Filium” it could naturally be understood to mean that the Father gives the directive, and the Son produces the Holy Spirit. The best way to say that the Father Himself breathes forth the Holy Spirit through the Son is “ex Patre Filioque”, which is why that is the preferred term in Latin.

For reference, in the Creed when it says of the Son “by whom all things were made”, the Latin is “per quem ómnia facta sunt.” We know that while the Godhead works together with one Energy in all things, the creation of the world is appropriated to the Word specifically, and in the Latin this is done by saying “per”. Obviously we don’t want to appropriate the Procession of the Holy Spirit to the Son alone, so why would we accept this term?
In addition, we see that both sides had to grapple with seemingly contradictory statements from the Eastern Fathers. For example, St. John of Damascus produced both of these statements in the same paragraph:
Actually these statements aren’t much of a problem for Latin theology, though it is for the Photian. The main difficulty the Latins had is that both ekporousis and proinai were translated as “proceeds” in Latin (and in English, BTW) despite having very different meanings. Latin simply doesn’t have a word that matches ekporousis, which literally means “from the mouth” and is taken to represent the coming forth from a source a la “from the horse’s mouth”. Of course the word used in the Creed is ekporousis, but the Latin renders it with the closest it can offer which is “procedit” which simply means “moving forward from” and has no implication of source, just as proceed has no implication of source in English.

continued…
 
Contrary to what Mickey says this is not a poor translation, it is the only translation possible. As anyone with any experience with translation should understand sometimes there simply isn’t a word that shares a common meaning between two languages and we must make do with the nearest equivalent and hope that too much isn’t lost in the translation. As I’ve pointed out this isn’t a problem with just Latin, as English can’t translate the Creed properly either, as we have no term that means “from the mouth/source” the way the Greek does. When we recite the Creed in English we are doing precisely what the Latins did, namely making an equivalence between the terms proinai and ekporousis, as “proceed” only means “proinai” and not “from the source”. The theology of the filioque doesn’t arise because of this translation problem, but sorting out the difficulty is made harder because of it.
The medieval Byzantine understanding is that in the inner being (which is what essence refers to) of the trinity, the Spirit can only be caused by the Father. In respect to the external being of the trinity (which is energy), the Spirit is manifest from the Father through the Son in all eternity, as the divine energies must be eternal, even if creation is not. Strictly speaking economy only refers to the actions of the trinity within time and creation.
Again, we can’t speak of the Divine Energy as something separate from the Divine Essence. We can distinguish between them, and we can speak of something being energetic as opposed to essential, but the Divine Energy is the natural “activity” and properties of the Divine Essence. That said, the inner being of the Holy Spirit is from the Father, because the Father is the “source of all deity” as the Latins put it; the Son has nothing but the Father, and gives nothing but the Father. The Son does give, however, and it is there that the distinction must be: what is given (essence) is the Father, the giving (energy) is through the Son. This is not the distinction between Divine Essence and Divine Energy, nor internal and external, but rather the distinction between noun and verb, substance and action: the Holy Spirit is essentially of the Father, His Source, breathing forth through the Son. It is my contention that this is the only way the Fathers, East and West, can be read and understood with any consistency.

At best we must say that the Fathers support both views, and that we can’t fault the Latins for holding to a view that is both clearly attested by some Fathers (East and West) and not condemned Ecumenically as heretical; we can’t even come close to speaking of a “consensus of the Fathers” against the filioque. At worst the later Byzantine theologians, most notably starting with Photius, have corrupted the theology of the Fathers in order to combat an improperly made, but not heretical, addition to the Creed.

Personally I find that the Photian view (that the Holy Spirit proceeds in no way through the Son) to be utterly inconsistent with what many Father’s have clearly said. This was the view that Bishop Bessarion, the Byzantine theologian and classics expert at the Council of Florence, took after hearing the Latin explanation of the filioque. This doesn’t mean that it was an intentional corruption, but merely that in the zeal to oppose something the Latins were doing improperly, namely unilaterally adding a word to the Creed (a debate for another thread), theological justifications were formed that were not actually consistent with the breadth of the teaching of the Fathers. Even if the justifications are consistent with some Fathers (and I haven’t found any Fathers that rule out the filioque) they don’t represent any kind of consensus, and the Latin theology of the filioque must be accepted as a Patristic and orthodox view, if not the only Patristic and orthodox view.

Peace and God bless!
 
If Rome would simply return to the original Creed without the Filioque (or anything else), we would all be way ahead in ecumenical terms.

I also believe the Orthodox should canonize Pope St Leo IV who insisted on maintaining the original Creed and had two tablets inscribed with it in Latin and Greek and placed these on the Tomb of St Peter.

Alex
 
If Rome would simply return to the original Creed without the Filioque (or anything else), we would all be way ahead in ecumenical terms.

I also believe the Orthodox should canonize Pope St Leo IV who insisted on maintaining the original Creed and had two tablets inscribed with it in Latin and Greek and placed these on the Tomb of St Peter.

Alex
But we wouldn’t be any closer to resolving the difficulty, because even if the term were removed the theology would remain, and the Orthodox will not reunite with something they view as heretical.

Things might be friendlier, but we would be no closer to reunion. The theology of the filioque is either heretical or it is not, regardless of what is said in the Creed.

Peace and God bless!
 
If Rome would simply return to the original Creed without the Filioque (or anything else), we would all be way ahead in ecumenical terms.

I also believe the Orthodox should canonize Pope St Leo IV who insisted on maintaining the original Creed and had two tablets inscribed with it in Latin and Greek and placed these on the Tomb of St Peter.
Amen my brother. As I said earlier…the Latin Mass was recently re-translated. It would have been very easy to change the Creed back to the way it was written on these tablets at the time of Pope St Leo IV. Ghosty and Marduk (and many other Latin apologists) can continue to jump through linguistic theological hoops in an effort to justify Rome’s insistence on using the filioque clause. But the fix is quite simple. 🙂
 
The theology of the filioque is either heretical or it is not, regardless of what is said in the Creed.
But you are saying that the Latins do not really mean what the East thinks they are saying. So if they agree with the East…there should not be a problem with the change in wording.

It is a non-issue…eh?
 
Amen my brother. As I said earlier…the Latin Mass was recently re-translated. It would have been very easy to change the Creed back to the way it was written on these tablets at the time of Pope St Leo IV. Ghosty and Marduk (and many other Latin apologists) can continue to jump through linguistic theological hoops in an effort to justify Rome’s insistence on using the filioque clause. But the fix is quite simple. 🙂
No one here is justifying the insistence on its use. We are justifying the theology of the filioque.

Big difference.
 
Great 👍
There is no “theology of the filioque”.
How do you figure this? If the theology is the same then no point in complaining about filioque, is there? Makes no difference, after all. What Ghosty said is true. Why focus on a word, when it’s the understanding behind it that has caused so much problems? Once the problems with that understanding gets cleared out of the way, the word by itself bears no weight. 🤷 So removing it without focusing on the true issue solves no problems.
 
Once the words are corrected to reflect the true understanding
What correction? The understanding behind the filioque would be the true one possessed by both sides, so why bother with the word? 🤷 It’s the same theology!
 
Both sides of what?
Go back and read post 91 onwards, Mickey & Ghosty and you’ll see what kind of conversation we are having- suffice it to say, it’s not literal, though not exactly hypothetical either…:hmmm:I don’t know how to describe it.
 
What correction?
The filioque clause of course. Since it is the same theology…there is no need for the filioque clause. It is only misleading and confusing…at best.

Better yet…let us go back to the ninth century and recite the creed as it was written on the two tablets on the tomb of St Peter by Pope Leo IV. 😉
 
But we wouldn’t be any closer to resolving the difficulty, because even if the term were removed the theology would remain, and the Orthodox will not reunite with something they view as heretical.

Things might be friendlier, but we would be no closer to reunion. The theology of the filioque is either heretical or it is not, regardless of what is said in the Creed.

Peace and God bless!
Actually, Revered Ghosty, the Orthodox don’t have any problem with the Filioque as a theological view of the Latin Church (they never had). Such a view could not be imposed on anyone else who didn’t share it.

Even St Mark of Ephesus didn’t expect the Latins to do away with their Trinitarian theology as such.

The only thing was the maintenance of the Creed in its original form - as also maintained by every Pope of Rome prior to 1015 AD.

Alex
 
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