Filioque option in the Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy

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nschmitz10

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I recently attended a Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy which is Byzantine Rite and in the Creed, and the Son are in parentheses. As a Roman Catholic who attends Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy and in addition to my Sunday obligation, I attend Russian Orthodox Mass, I personally prefer the Procession of the Holy Spirit in the Creed as “who proceeds from the Father through the Son.” What do most Eastern Catholics believe?
 
“who proceeds from the Father”. Through the Son, while correct, is not in the original Creed. That said, I think that since we all believe in the Trinity, it is largely a semantic issue.
As is also sung in the Divine Liturgy, “The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, The Trinity, once in essence, and undivided.”
 
rciadan said:
“who proceeds from the Father”. Through the Son, while correct, is not in the original Creed. That said, I think that since we all believe in the Trinity, it is largely a semantic issue.
As is also sung in the Divine Liturgy, “The Father, and the Son, and the Holy Spirit, The Trinity, once in essence, and undivided.”
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In my conversation with a Byzantine Catholic, he mentioned it is mainly a semantic issue. Thanks!
 
While it might mostly be a semantic issue I find it superfluous to add extra phrases that do nothing but add the possibility for contention. It’s also like in the Latin creed “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God;” was the first God not true? 😃
 
MorEphrem said:
While it might mostly be a semantic issue I find it superfluous to add extra phrases that do nothing but add the possibility for contention. It’s also like in the Latin creed “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God;” was the first God not true? 😃
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I wholeheartedly agree. 🙂
 
MorEphrem said:
While it might mostly be a semantic issue I find it superfluous to add extra phrases that do nothing but add the possibility for contention. It’s also like in the Latin creed “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God;” was the first God not true? 😃
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Agreed about superfluous duplication, but it seems to me that distinction goes to the phrase “God from God” rather than its more specific sibling.

IIRC, the Council of Constantinople revised the Creed due to Arianism, so “true God from true God” makes perfectly good sense. In the Greek text, “God from God” is absent in the Niceo-Constantipolitan Creed, (the same is true in the traditional Syriac text) but, OTOH, it was added to the Latin text for some reason.
 
nschmitz10 said:
I attend Russian Orthodox Mass, I personally prefer the Procession of the Holy Spirit in the Creed as “who proceeds from the Father through the Son.”
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Wait, do you mean to say that this Orthodox parish modified the Nicene Creed to read “and through the Son”?! That’s hard to believe… don’t the EO call US the “Creed tamperers”? 🤷
 
suissemissed said:
Wait, do you mean to say that this Orthodox parish modified the Nicene Creed to read “and through the Son”?! That’s hard to believe… don’t the EO call US the “Creed tamperers”? 🤷
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I don’t think that’s what nschmitz10 meant.
 
suissemissed said:
Wait, do you mean to say that this Orthodox parish modified the Nicene Creed to read “and through the Son”?! That’s hard to believe… don’t the EO call US the “Creed tamperers”? 🤷
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No, the ROCOR parish I attended did not provide guides so I couldn’t find the creed. “Through the son” is a belief of many Orthodox Christians, and I thought it made sense.
 
MorEphrem said:
While it might mostly be a semantic issue I find it superfluous to add extra phrases that do nothing but add the possibility for contention. It’s also like in the Latin creed “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God;” was the first God not true? 😃
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Add? This was part of the Creed of 325. It wasapparently dropped in 381.
 
The filioque is not a semantic issue. There are semantics attached to it (i.e. what is meant by “proceeds”), but when it comes down to it, it is first and foremost an issue of authority - does Rome have the authority to unilaterally change the creed.
 
nschmitz10 said:
No, the ROCOR parish I attended did not provide guides so I couldn’t find the creed. “Through the son” is a belief of many Orthodox Christians, and I thought it made sense.
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Actually, I’d be surprised if it was a belief of any Orthodox Christians, since that was the primary point of contention that lead to the Great Schism. :rolleyes:
 
Nine_Two said:
The filioque is not a semantic issue. There are semantics attached to it (i.e. what is meant by “proceeds”), but when it comes down to it, it is first and foremost an issue of authority - does Rome have the authority to unilaterally change the creed.
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I’m just curious as to why the EO always point to the RC church as creed tamperers but I’ve never heard them denounce that the Oriental Churches in the fact that we all have different creeds as well (I invite people to look at the Syriac creed and the Armenian creed). To be honest, I don’t think it is a matter of authority but a matter of communicating a specific idea in which that creed based on its circumstances. For instance I’m sure Greeks would not disagree with the fact in Syriac it says Jesus rose according to His will, yet that is a creedal variation, as well as the Armenians who say He took body, mind and soul of a human being.

To be honest, I’m the last to defend the Latins but I also try to be impartial; I think this is less a matter of “whose authority” and more another point for certain elements to rag on the RC.
 
MorEphrem said:
I’m just curious as to why the EO always point to the RC church as creed tamperers but I’ve never heard them denounce that the Oriental Churches in the fact that we all have different creeds as well (I invite people to look at the Syriac creed and the Armenian creed). To be honest, I don’t think it is a matter of authority but a matter of communicating a specific idea in which that creed based on its circumstances. For instance I’m sure Greeks would not disagree with the fact in Syriac it says Jesus rose according to His will, yet that is a creedal variation, as well as the Armenians who say He took body, mind and soul of a human being.

To be honest, I’m the last to defend the Latins but I also try to be impartial; I think this is less a matter of “whose authority” and more another point for certain elements to rag on the RC.
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Can you elaborate on the Syriac and Armenian beliefs you mentioned or show me where I can get that information?
 
nschmitz10 said:
Can you elaborate on the Syriac and Armenian beliefs you mentioned or show me where I can get that information?
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Certainly; I was simply referring to the fact that the Syriac and Armenian creeds also have different ideas inserted into them. Ideally, obviously, it would be best if I could give you a bilinear text but since I do not know of such readily available online sources:
Syriac Creed:
We believe in one true God, the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth, and of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only-begotten Son of God, Who was begotten of the Father before all worlds; light of light, true God of true God; begotten and not made; and being of one substance with His Father, by Whom all things were made; Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate by the Holy Spirit and of the Virgin Mary, Mother of God. And He became man, and was crucified for us in the days of Pontius Pilate, and He suffered, died and was buried, and the third day He rose according to His will, and ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of His Father; and He will come again with great glory to judge both the living and the dead; and His kingdom shall have no end.

And we believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the Giver of life to all, Who proceeds from the Father; Who together with the Father and Son is worshipped and glorified, Who spoke through the Prophets and Apostles.

And in one, holy, catholic, and apostolic Church. We confess one baptism for the remission of sins. And we look for the resurrection of the dead, and the new life in the world to come.
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Armenian Creed:
We believe in one God the Father Almighty, maker of heaven and earth, of all things visible and invisible.

And in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, begotten of God the Father, only-begotten, that is of the substance of the Father. God of God, light of light, very God of very God, begotten and not made; himself of the nature of the Father, by whom all things came into being in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible.

Who for us men and for our salvation came down from heaven and was incarnate, became man, was born perfectly of the holy virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit. By whom he took body, soul and mind and everything that is in man, truly and not in semblance.

He suffered and was crucified and was buried
And rose again on the third day
And ascended into heaven with the same body and sat at the right hand of the Father.

He is to come with the same body and with the glory of the Father to judge the living and the dead; of whose kingdom there is no end.

We believe also in the Holy Spirit, the uncreated and the perfect, who spake in the law in and in the prophets and in the gospels. Who came down upon the Jordan, preached to the apostles and dwelt in the saints.

We believe also in the only One Catholic and Apostolic Holy Church.
In one baptism of repentance for the remission and forgiveness of sins.
In the resurrection of the dead, In the everlasting judgement of souls and bodies, in the kingdom of heaven and in the life eternal.
Amen.
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MorEphrem said:
While it might mostly be a semantic issue I find it superfluous to add extra phrases that do nothing but add the possibility for contention. It’s also like in the Latin creed “God from God, Light from Light, True God from True God;” was the first God not true? 😃
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malphono said:
Agreed about superfluous duplication, but it seems to me that distinction goes to the phrase “God from God” rather than its more specific sibling.

IIRC, the Council of Constantinople revised the Creed due to Arianism, so “true God from true God” makes perfectly good sense. In the Greek text, “God from God” is absent in the Niceo-Constantipolitan Creed, (the same is true in the traditional Syriac text) but, OTOH, it was added to the Latin text for some reason.
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The Nicene Creed of 325 included the additional “God from God”, so if anything, it was left in after Constantinople removed it in 381.
 
suissemissed said:
Wait, do you mean to say that this Orthodox parish modified the Nicene Creed to read “and through the Son”?! That’s hard to believe… don’t the EO call US the “Creed tamperers”? 🤷
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It was at the Ukranian Catholic parish and had been inserted as an optional addition due to latinization in times past. Currently, this practice is discouraged, but some parishes are slow to replace their printed copies (or publishers are slow to edit).
 
SonCatcher said:
The Nicene Creed of 325 included the additional “God from God”, so if anything, it was left in after Constantinople removed it in 381.
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I’ve no intention of engaging in a major discussion about this, but I do know something about the the history of the Creed and no, it wasn’t “left in” at all. The final text did not include it, which means that Rome added it back at a later point. And in any case, what was added-back wasn’t exactly the same as was in the original 325 version. To me, it remains an unnecessary redundancy.
 
MorEphrem said:
Certainly; I was simply referring to the fact that the Syriac and Armenian creeds also have different ideas inserted into them. Ideally, obviously, it would be best if I could give you a bilinear text but since I do not know of such readily available online sources:
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Thank you MorEphrem! Where did you find these creeds?
 
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