Filioque option in the Ukrainian Catholic Divine Liturgy

[nschmitz10]

No problem. The Syriac one is from a Syriac Orthodox website here and I took the Armenian one from here but I feel like this one is much neater in presentation. Oh and if you’re interested in another variation the Ethiopian creed is also slightly different from the others. The Assyrian creed doesn’t even have “Light from Light.”

Thank you!!! One last question, are the creeds you mention in communion with Rome? Like is it Syriac Orthodox or Syriac Catholic and Armenian Catholic or Armenian Apostolic?

 

[MorEphrem]

Thank you!!! One last question, are the creeds you mention in communion with Rome? Like is it Syriac Orthodox or Syriac Catholic and Armenian Catholic or Armenian Apostolic?

Well I mean in theory they should be both (but for instance the Maronites use the Latin creed “to make it easier for people who normally go to a Latin church to follow” ).

 

[Peter_J]

I’m just curious as to why the EO always point to the RC church as creed tamperers but I’ve never heard them denounce that the Oriental Churches in the fact that we all have different creeds as well (I invite people to look at the Syriac creed and the Armenian creed). To be honest, I don’t think it is a matter of authority but a matter of communicating a specific idea in which that creed based on its circumstances. For instance I’m sure Greeks would not disagree with the fact in Syriac it says Jesus rose according to His will, yet that is a creedal variation, as well as the Armenians who say He took body, mind and soul of a human being.

To be honest, I’m the last to defend the Latins but I also try to be impartial; I think this is less a matter of “whose authority” and more another point for certain elements to rag on the RC.

I think the Orthodox like to see it as much more black-and-white than it really is.

Example: I think one of the most positive developments recent Latin developments, concerning the creed, is the increased use of the “Apostles’ Creed”. (Not that I’m saying that that is the way to go, just that it’s nice that we’re no longer neglecting it quite so much.)

 

[Peter_J]

I’ve no intention of engaging in a major discussion about this, but I do know something about the the history of the Creed and no, it wasn’t “left in” at all.

Thank you for saying that, I was a little confused by SonCatcher’s post.

As best as I can recall, there was a discussion at Nicea whether to say “God from God” or “true God from true God”, and they decided on the latter (not both).

 

[Peter_J]

Certainly; I was simply referring to the fact that the Syriac and Armenian creeds also have different ideas inserted into them. Ideally, obviously, it would be best if I could give you a bilinear text but since I do not know of such readily available online sources:

Originally Posted by Syriac Creed

That’s very interesting (among other things) that they say “Mother of God” after “Virgin Mary”. I didn’t know any versions of the creed did that.

 

[lucia_kay]

I think it is an interesting but sad issue. It is sad that one short phrase can do so much damage to the unity of the church.

 

[Nine_Two]

I’m just curious as to why the EO always point to the RC church as creed tamperers but I’ve never heard them denounce that the Oriental Churches in the fact that we all have different creeds as well (I invite people to look at the Syriac creed and the Armenian creed). To be honest, I don’t think it is a matter of authority but a matter of communicating a specific idea in which that creed based on its circumstances. For instance I’m sure Greeks would not disagree with the fact in Syriac it says Jesus rose according to His will, yet that is a creedal variation, as well as the Armenians who say He took body, mind and soul of a human being.

To be honest, I’m the last to defend the Latins but I also try to be impartial; I think this is less a matter of “whose authority” and more another point for certain elements to rag on the RC.

Lack of familiarity being one, but keep in mind that the changes made by the Latin Church were tolerated until they tried to make the east accept the changes - that is the West forced the issue.

 

[LionHeart777]

Lack of familiarity being one, but keep in mind that the changes made by the Latin Church were tolerated until they tried to make the east accept the changes - that is the West forced the issue.

What do you mean by tolerated and what time period are you referring to here?

 

[nschmitz10]

I think the Orthodox like to see it as much more black-and-white than it really is.

Example: I think one of the most positive developments recent Latin developments, concerning the creed, is the increased use of the “Apostles’ Creed”. (Not that I’m saying that that is the way to go, just that it’s nice that we’re no longer neglecting it quite so much.)

Is the “Apostle’s Creed” common in Eastern Rite Churches?

 

[MorEphrem]

Is the “Apostle’s Creed” common in Eastern Rite Churches?

No, I think it’s a particularly Western creed. Perhaps one of the more versed posters will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think its origins are Milanese.

 

[Cavaradossi]

Actually, I’d be surprised if it was a belief of any Orthodox Christians, since that was the primary point of contention that lead to the Great Schism.

“Through the Son” is standard Orthodox theology. Anybody who says otherwise is ignorant of the many fathers and synodal decisions which have approved of this teaching.

 

[malphono]

No, I think it’s a particularly Western creed. Perhaps one of the more versed posters will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think its origins are Milanese.

Although it was cited by St Ambrose, it’s origins seem to be older, so I’m not so sure it can actually be said to be Ambrosian. In any case, I’m not aware that it has ever been used in the Orient or East.

 

[Peter_J]

No, I think it’s a particularly Western creed. Perhaps one of the more versed posters will correct me if I’m wrong, but I think its origins are Milanese.

Interesting. I never heard that last part before, that its origins are specifically Milanese.

 

[dvdjs]

Thank you for saying that, I was a little confused by SonCatcher’s post.

As best as I can recall, there was a discussion at Nicea whether to say “God from God” or “true God from true God”, and they decided on the latter (not both).

Both are in the Creed from Nicea 325, at least in the commonly available versions. It is not in the Eastern version of the Creed from Constantinople 381, but is in Western versions. WHen these various versions were finalized, and who added what, when…? Perhaps Malphono could shed some light on that.

 

[theistgal]

“Through the Son” is standard Orthodox theology. Anybody who says otherwise is ignorant of the many fathers and synodal decisions which have approved of this teaching.

Apologies, I misread your post.

 

[nschmitz10]

“Through the Son” is standard Orthodox theology. Anybody who says otherwise is ignorant of the many fathers and synodal decisions which have approved of this teaching.

Cavaradossi, do you believe it to be a semantics debate? I believe “through the son” to be correct.

 

[Nine_Two]

Through the son is stated very plainly in scripture.

 

[Nine_Two]

What do you mean by tolerated and what time period are you referring to here?

What I mean is that we didn’t push it as an issue. And the time period is between the adoptation of the filioque in the West until the issue came to a head in 1054.

While words may have been exchanged over the issue, I’m not familiar with any excommunications of the sort that happened when Humbert brought up the issue.

 

[theistgal]

Cavaradossi, do you believe it to be a semantics debate? I believe “through the son” to be correct.

It is “through the Son”. The difference is: Catholics will say “proceeds from the Father and the Son”, whereas the Orthodox will say, “proceeds from the Father”, and if pressed will add, (though not in the Creed itself of course!) “THROUGH the Son”.

 

[ealfred]

Well I mean in theory they should be both (but for instance the Maronites use the Latin creed “to make it easier for people who normally go to a Latin church to follow” ).

I think it depend on the tradition and the effect of Latin tradition on that Eastern Rite.

The Syriac Catholic Church also uses the Latin version of the Creed.