Finding a Catholic Spouse

[chevalier]

Yes, that could be. I think that dating for some reason, has become more complicated…all the way around, not just for Catholics. I have a few single friends who lament about it, and it seems like they’re looking for this ‘‘perfect’’ person. I tell them, when you find the perfect person, let me know, I’ll grab my camera. Only perfect person that ever walked the earth, and ever will…is Christ. (they are not Catholic, but it’s an opportunity to witness )

I remember the picture of a couple of female skeletons sitting in remnants of Victorian-ish outfits around a coffee table with a caption, “waiting for the perfect man,” somewhere there. I doubt many of the people from the category we talk about it actually belong there. Curiously, consider the fact that Catholics are 0.17 of the world populace, of which 0.3 attend, then the age and sex together will form another bracket from about 0.06 to 0.12 (being genereous here). Then you can consider how many people out of 10 one’s vaguely attracted to physically in the right age and sex category (1 out of 10?), and how many one can develop a good personal relationship with (certainly not a half, consider personality types, ancestries, views on life etc.). If necessary, you can further apply education or intelligence statistics or types of brains or personalities (genius 2%, brilliant… 12%, average… 60%?). Don’t forget to add a factor for those already married and those engaged or at least in a “serious” relationship (don’t know, but clearly most people in certan brackets). There’s gonna be a lot of zeroes after the decimal point. Obviously, the whole calculation is bogus, but it gives you an idea what kind of ranges we’re looking at in case of some specific people (the average Joe is perfectly fine, but joint probability is a bastard).

As any stick has two ends, however, this can actually be turned into an advantage. Once you’ve narrowed down the pool, there’s little weeding left to do. Some people could easily go through their whole pool within a lifetime if they gave everyone a day, and in some cases it would take just a couple of years, possibly less. This may be the reason, actually, why some people believe in the soulmate theory and the whole glam about fighting “the right” one and just knowing.

 

[Em_in_FL]

Sorry… … I thoroughly enjoyed chevalier’s post (as an engineer who studied probability for fun and minored in mathematics)…
Thanks for making my day!

 

[Norseman82]

Norseman, don’t worry what others think of you or what you’re doing. No one here thinks that someone who is seeking to find a suitable spouse, is ‘deficient.’ I don’t know if I have ever read that, on here. I think what you might be referring to, correct me if I’m wrong, is when people tell single people to be content with God. But, that is sensible advice. That doesn’t mean you should stop seeking what you desire…it only means that you should still be happy with where you are in Christ. That’s all anyone means…they don’t mean to stop seeking to find a suitable spouse.

I hope you find someone to share your life with someday, Norseman.

Actually, that is what I am referring to, and whether or not people mean to make others feel deficient, it does create a guilt trip where the person who hears that thinks “gee, I’m letting God down because I’m not satisfied with Him alone”. I don’t know if it is possible to be completely satisfied with God alone on this earth, since one of the purposes of purgatory is to cleanse our souls of any earthly attachments so that our love of God is pure. Remember,too, that Mothwer Theresa of Calcutta in her writings wrote f her spiritual pain; that should be an eye-opener that even she did not feel complete contentment with God alone in this life.

 

[whatevergirl]

Actualy, sexual sins are considered worse. First, St. Paul made the distinction, I think it was in 1 Cor. Second, Mary said at Fatima that more souls will go to hell becase of sexual sins (or words to that effect). Third, the sexual bond between husband and wife is what makes them husband and wife rather than brother and sister, and sexuality is a very sensitive area. Why do you think that sexual infedility is taken so seriously?

Also, in the parable of the prodigal son, I don’t see jealousy, I see righteous indignation over not being appreciated.

*But you and I nor any other human, are permitted to judge others in condemnation. Only God is the final judge…not you, not me. That is an entirely different thing, than you personally not wishing to marry a woman who has not lived a chaste life. Two different things…we can’t blend those together.

You can decide to not marry a non virgin, but you seem to overlap that desire with the Scripture above, as if we are our peers’ judges. We’re not. If someone has had sex out of marriage in his/her past, and he/she has gone to confession, and repented…he/she IS forgiven by God. It seems that you don’t like that those same people go on to marry virgins. That they are somehow not deserving of that, or something. That’s what I’m reading here. The reality of it all is this…being a nonvirgin when entering marriage, doesn’t render one less capable of being a holy spouse than one who is a virgin. I was a virgin when I married, and I wasn’t sucha great wife in the beginning. I speak from experience. My virginal ‘status’ didn’t equip me anymore or less for the challenges of marriage. I remained a virgin for me, because I wanted to follow Christ. Not because I wanted something in return for the sacrifice.

Living chaste lives is what we’re called to do, as followers of Christ. Not because we hope to ‘get something out of it,’ in the end of our sacrifices. Then, it would fail to be a '‘sacrifice,’ if we are jealous of those who are not chaste, and seem ‘better off,’ than we are.

This doesn’t mean I don’t understand your frustration. I remember back in college, guys dumping me because I wouldn’t sleep with them, and other girls who would sleep with guys, seeming to have more relationships than me. But, in the end, being angry over that was of no use to me, or my walk with Christ. That is more of what some of us are trying to say. Don’t be angry with what unchaste people are ‘getting.’ Your rewards are in Christ. *

 

[whatevergirl]

Actually, that is what I am referring to, and whether or not people mean to make others feel deficient, it does create a guilt trip where the person who hears that thinks “gee, I’m letting God down because I’m not satisfied with Him alone”. I don’t know if it is possible to be completely satisfied with God alone on this earth, since one of the purposes of purgatory is to cleanse our souls of any earthly attachments so that our love of God is pure. Remember,too, that Mothwer Theresa of Calcutta in her writings wrote f her spiritual pain; that should be an eye-opener that even she did not feel complete contentment with God alone in this life.

*Norseman, as I read more of what you post here, my heart goes out to you. I have been married a while…I sometimes take that for granted. I don’t know what it’s like to walk halfway through life, alone. Forgive me, if I have not been as understanding as I can be. Just like you don’t understand all of the challenges of married life, I don’t FULLY understand the challenges of being "perpetually’’ single. Perhaps, I never thought there were any:blush:…like, it just dawned on me reading through this thread, that I guess there are real difficulties in being single. (for some, not all) And how ignorant I am of other’s feelings on it. All of a sudden, maybe I’m tired…I don’t know, but I have tears in my eyes reading through this thread.

As I read more and more, (I have seen your posts on other topics of this nature) I see a very discouraged man. I just wanted to say that God does have a plan for you, and for us all. There is comfort in knowing that He is very concerned with the details. *

 

[Liberanosamalo]

Fifth, it causes a crisis in faith for the people who “play by the rules” and can’t find a spouse to see those who don’t “play by the rules” rewarded with spouses and families.

Hey, people, I’m the “CRAB” he was talking about! Thanks, Norseman, it’s always great to be called names by a man. Brings back old memories and as a member of the Midol Mafia, (Gosh, you’re on a roll!) I have to say you’ve done the women of the world a favor not taking your name-calling tendencies into a marriage.

We play by the rules because we love God. Because it’s the right thing to do. Not because God is a Divine Vending Machine and if we follow all the rules and put in our quarter out pops a shiny new wife completely unopened and unsoiled by human hands.

A spouse isn’t a “reward.” I’d hate to think I was only someone’s “reward” for following the rules. People shouldn’t be thought of that way. Until you stop seeing people in terms of what you think is owed you, you will be alone. That’s one step below the 72 virgins some people think God owes them for following their “set of rules.”

How about you trying to be the reward someone else got?

Here’s a news flash, Christ died on the cross for everyone, even those who had premarital sex.

While MORE souls go to hell for it, that is NOT the worst sin. The SIN OF PRIDE is the worst sin. It’s the one that got Lucifer cast out of heaven. He had an entitlement thing in his head too. Thought God should reward him with something and when he found out mere men would share humanity with God, he was outraged at GOD and said he wouldn’t serve a God who didn’t reward him in the way he wanted but rewarded those unworthy humans instead by making His Son one of them.

Like the prodigal son who served his father… did he serve him out of love or an obligation or was he waiting for his “reward” and resented the brother getting any “reward”.

If he really loved his father, he would have been happy to see his father’s pain end at the coming home of a beloved son and the restoration of his family. He would have been in the party embracing his brother. He would not have caused his father more pain by refusing to go into the house and making the father come out with tears in his eyes and beg him. By doing so he took away his father’s joy, killed it. Made it into a choice between children. Which no parent wants to make. That is NOT love.

Would some people tell God how to reward his children? That sense of “righteous indignation” the older son felt toward the father was not appropriate. And not loving. Christ told that story for a reason. He was trying to tell people in a way they understood how much God loves the sinner and it is not our job to tell God who to forgive. We have NO right to have ANY righteous indignation toward God for anything in our lives.

NONE. We are not God. How dare we.

After that party, the younger repentant son who came back as a humble servant begging forgiveness and a second chance was closer to the father than the rigid rule-following older brother who lacked love and compassion in his heart for an old man who thought he would die without ever seeing his son again.

I’ll ignore Norseman’s slam at those of us who “followed the rules” and were divorced and got annulments but who still must sit in his church with the other fornicating, knocked up lepers and apologize for being there.

Norseman, maybe God is withholding a bride from you until you can see someone’s soul with the same love and forgiveness He does. Because I can’t think of anything scarier than what an unforgiving harsh father you’d be to teenagers who might sin by fornicating, despite your best efforts to teach them.

If you’re trying so hard to control who you’d choose in life by their past, I can’t imagine how much control you’d try to exert over children and the resentment and lack of forgiveness you’d bring to their weakness. Natural law only goes so far with a fallen human race. If natural law were all it took, God wouldn’t have had to send His Commandments or His Beloved Son.

Maybe God isn’t rewarding sinners for their sin by sending them spouses. Maybe He’s rewarding them for their humility and compassion and forgiveness for others’ sins. And maybe he’s protecting future children from being called names by their father if they fall in sin by asking you to see human souls through HIS eyes.

Love ya… “The Crab”

 

[Liberanosamalo]

like you don’t understand all of the challenges of married life, I don’t FULLY understand the challenges of being "perpetually’’ single.

I have siblings who never married and never found anyone.

But Norseman isn’t very nice to those of us who thought we found that soulmate and were slam-dunked into the courts no matter how we tried to make it work. He has sneered at divorced people and those with annulments as being less deserving than the people who don’t have divorces and annulments only because they haven’t been put in the position to be slam-dunked yet. Who knows what kind of spouses they’d make. Or what their fate would be eventually

Try to get off THAT merry-go-round!



Maybe I’m going out on a limb in suggesting or surmising that Norseman’s tragic upbringing and deprivation of a family was maybe ultimately a result of someone’s sexual sin. I would suggest that when he learns to forgive that person whoever was responsible for his pain, he may be able to look beyond that in a future spouse and see that not everyone who sins sexually will take his family away from him someday. I think fear is at the root of his attitude. That realization could be very freeing for him. I hope he finds a spiritual director someday who can help him with that.

Ironically, he says he won’t discern the priesthood because he doesn’t feel called to a life of celibacy. Yet he may end up with just that result at the rate things are going. Wouldn’t it be ironic if he in effect lived out what he was rejecting all along. And at the end of his life, instead of a joyful life in the service of God and extending God’s love and forgiveness and compassion to others, he ended up bitter and resentful at what he felt God didn’t give him.

That would be a tragic waste of an obviously intelligent man and a life that could be very productive.

Please, Norseman, you are called to so much more.

 

[hesco]

You might want to maybe start going to another parish for a little while. Try to get involved in some sort of ministry.It is a great way to meet people.

 

[CountrySinger]

I know I have my faults. But I know I am marriable (is that a word?). I was engaged to a wonderful man when I was 22. Then one day we were driving back a week before our wedding, we were in a car wreck. I was severly injured (I couldn’t walk for six months), and he died. I spent so many years bitter, and I went away from the church. My mindset was the same “why did God punish me? Well, I’ll show him! If good things happen to bad people, I’ll be really bad.” I spent years angry at everything and everyone. Only in the last couple years I’ve been able to let go of the anger (the cynicism remains, but I’ve been cynical since I was 13). But so many years were wasted in anger. Don’t let it destroy you. Not to say I never get lonely, angry, or bitter.

 

[chevalier]

I have a question for the singles posting in this thread.

Do you enjoy dating and meeting new people?

I have been in a committed relationship for 3 1/2 years and I have to say, I kind of miss the thrill of dating! That’s not to say I was ever the type to go out with a different girl every weekend, I never behaved that way. However, meeting and getting to know someone new, wondering how they felt about you, planning out dates etc. I kind of miss that feeling!

I enjoy talking to people. I enjoy flirting. In fact, probably more than I should. I like the sparks flying and I ejnoy the healthier of the head games. Nice food for the brain. And I feel smug when I pull off something big. At the end of the day, there are all those things you could do when trying to make someone happy, but there’s no one where to direct it, at least in that way. Not like I’d normally go on talking about it. And it’s not as bad as the brutal feeling of a relationship that isn’t going to work.

It sounds like you guys are not that far behind us

Is there a difference between the urban and rural areas?

I’m sure there is, though I can’t nail it down - I have little experience with rural areas, although some things are probably true everywhere. I’m practically sure church attendance is bigger and a greater share of children receive catechesis (possibly all of them?). Public irregular relationships are rare, living in doesn’t really happen, premarital sex is not unheard of, though I don’t know details.

As far as entiltlements, I feel no more entitled than a medical student who worked hard and made sacrifices who is seeking a position and is up against a partying slacker who cheated on his exams. The father in the prodigal son did not chide his son for feeling “entitled”; in fact, he said “everything I have is yours” (which may imply that the younger disobedient son ended up with no more inheritance).

That guy isn’t gonna be happy or smug when he kills someone. Doctors already have to deal with the, “what if I had done more.” Even the good ones. There’s always something you could’ve read up on, something you could’ve paid more attention to, something you shouldn’t have done, or should have. Same with lawyers, though at least we can’t kill anyone (normally).

I know I have my faults. But I know I am marriable (is that a word?). I was engaged to a wonderful man when I was 22. Then one day we were driving back a week before our wedding, we were in a car wreck. I was severly injured (I couldn’t walk for six months), and he died. I spent so many years bitter, and I went away from the church. My mindset was the same “why did God punish me? Well, I’ll show him! If good things happen to bad people, I’ll be really bad.” I spent years angry at everything and everyone. Only in the last couple years I’ve been able to let go of the anger (the cynicism remains, but I’ve been cynical since I was 13). But so many years were wasted in anger. Don’t let it destroy you. Not to say I never get lonely, angry, or bitter.

Just as I was honing a migraine over much smaller stuff. Got to say I admire you for getting out of that. I once came in brief contact with a 21 year old widow. And she was telling me to cheer up. Figures. Time to get a grip. Can we all pick a less sad manner of discussion?

 

[whatevergirl]

I remember the picture of a couple of female skeletons sitting in remnants of Victorian-ish outfits around a coffee table with a caption, “waiting for the perfect man,” somewhere there. I doubt many of the people from the category we talk about it actually belong there. Curiously, consider the fact that Catholics are 0.17 of the world populace, of which 0.3 attend, then the age and sex together will form another bracket from about 0.06 to 0.12 (being genereous here). Then you can consider how many people out of 10 one’s vaguely attracted to physically in the right age and sex category (1 out of 10?), and how many one can develop a good personal relationship with (certainly not a half, consider personality types, ancestries, views on life etc.). If necessary, you can further apply education or intelligence statistics or types of brains or personalities (genius 2%, brilliant… 12%, average… 60%?). Don’t forget to add a factor for those already married and those engaged or at least in a “serious” relationship (don’t know, but clearly most people in certan brackets). There’s gonna be a lot of zeroes after the decimal point. Obviously, the whole calculation is bogus, but it gives you an idea what kind of ranges we’re looking at in case of some specific people (the average Joe is perfectly fine, but joint probability is a bastard).

As any stick has two ends, however, this can actually be turned into an advantage. Once you’ve narrowed down the pool, there’s little weeding left to do. Some people could easily go through their whole pool within a lifetime if they gave everyone a day, and in some cases it would take just a couple of years, possibly less. This may be the reason, actually, why some people believe in the soulmate theory and the whole glam about fighting “the right” one and just knowing.

I do believe that in the dictionary, there is a picture of you, next to the word…ANALYTICAL! This too made me laugh!

 

[whatevergirl]

I know I have my faults. But I know I am marriable (is that a word?). I was engaged to a wonderful man when I was 22. Then one day we were driving back a week before our wedding, we were in a car wreck. I was severly injured (I couldn’t walk for six months), and he died. I spent so many years bitter, and I went away from the church. My mindset was the same “why did God punish me? Well, I’ll show him! If good things happen to bad people, I’ll be really bad.” I spent years angry at everything and everyone. **Only in the last couple years I’ve been able to let go of the anger (the cynicism remains, but I’ve been cynical since I was 13). But so many years were wasted in anger. Don’t let it destroy you. ** Not to say I never get lonely, angry, or bitter.

*This is perfectly put. I too spent a NUMBER of years, maybe even two decades, wondering why I had to lose my parents. Unresolved anger and blaming whomever, takes a lot out of a person. (bolded for emphasis by me) As a kid, what ‘‘rules’’ did I break? While others who behaved badly as kids, had loving parents to raise them. You can pretty much look at anyone’s life, and see strife. I guess the key is to not become embittered over that strife. To invite God into the strife, and help you figure out how to deal with it.

I’m terribly sorry for your loss, that had to be tough. *

 

[Norseman82]

Why am I not surprised that “Donna Corleone” herself popped her head in here ?

Hey, people, I’m the “CRAB” he was talking about! Thanks, Norseman, it’s always great to be called names by a man. Brings back old memories and as a member of the Midol Mafia, (Gosh, you’re on a roll!) I have to say you’ve done the women of the world a favor not taking your name-calling tendencies into a marriage.

…

I have siblings who never married and never found anyone.

But Norseman isn’t very nice to those of us who thought we found that soulmate and were slam-dunked into the courts no matter how we tried to make it work. He has sneered at divorced people and those with annulments as being less deserving than the people who don’t have divorces and annulments only because they haven’t been put in the position to be slam-dunked yet. Who knows what kind of spouses they’d make. Or what their fate would be eventually

Try to get off THAT merry-go-round!



Maybe I’m going out on a limb in suggesting or surmising that Norseman’s tragic upbringing and deprivation of a family was maybe ultimately a result of someone’s sexual sin. I would suggest that when he learns to forgive that person whoever was responsible for his pain, he may be able to look beyond that in a future spouse and see that not everyone who sins sexually will take his family away from him someday. I think fear is at the root of his attitude. That realization could be very freeing for him. I hope he finds a spiritual director someday who can help him with that.

Ironically, he says he won’t discern the priesthood because he doesn’t feel called to a life of celibacy. Yet he may end up with just that result at the rate things are going. Wouldn’t it be ironic if he in effect lived out what he was rejecting all along. And at the end of his life, instead of a joyful life in the service of God and extending God’s love and forgiveness and compassion to others, he ended up bitter and resentful at what he felt God didn’t give him.

That would be a tragic waste of an obviously intelligent man and a life that could be very productive.

Please, Norseman, you are called to so much more.

Actually, I did discern it.

And it is ironic that you are now psychoanalyzing me. I recall in another thread how violently you reacted to me over something similar.

However, I just want to point out that just as you think what I post is not “nice”, it is not “nice” to hold people who “play by the rules” in such low regard.

It is not “nice” to call people “liars”.

It is not “nice” when a person who has been constantly told to “be patient and wait for God’s plan” to then be told “what were you doing all this time in your 20s and 30s”.

It is not “nice” to be told to “play by the rules” and then later told to find your own church (or words to that effect).

It is not “nice” to in one breath dangle out promises that if you seek God first everything will fall into place and then in another pull the rug out from people and start yelling at them for thinking that God is a vending machine.

In our view, these are mind games, plain and simple, and in a particularly spiritually sensitive area of life that can affect one’s salvation. And I do not react pleasantly to mind games. And I wonder how many other singles who “play by the rules” feel the same, only are not as straightforward and vocal as me.

I know God is not a vending machine, but the fact of the matter is that God did make us promises, and He uses us to fulfill them, hence my remark earlier about how we Catholics need to look out for each other better. And the other fact of the matter is that the “rewards” or “kid goats” are in fact necessities of life for some. “Love of God” does not mean you no longer need the necessities of life, as the story of the Greek-speaking widows in Acts shows us.

And yes, trying to be a reward to someone is in my mind.

And although I do realize that there are certain cases in which divorce may be necessary, that should not become the norm by which to judge ministry to those who have never been married, and it should not lead to criticism of people who play by the rules in seeking compatible Catholic spouses (which I have seen occur from people who may be bitter over their own divorces). In fact, from what I’ve seen, I honestly believe that divorce is “the smoke of Satan” that is seeking to destroy the Church, becuase not only is it permeating how we approach the sacrament of marriage and being used as a way of “scaring people” away from marriage, but more importantly I’m also noticing more priests who are the product of divorced families (whether the divorce was among their parents or other close family members), and I wonder if that is compromising their ability to fight this scourge.

I know that we come from different cultures. I know you say you are from the South (I don’t know if you grew up there), and in that part of the country there are many protestants who, whether due to OSAS and erroneous personal interpretation of Scripture, find excuses to justify divorce and other sexual immorality and find it no big deal, so that is what you were surrounded by. I grew up in what would be considered a “fortress Rome” in the "Archie Bunker " section of Chicago (my dad even worked on a loading dock!), where such things would not be tolerated but instead be met with “GASP!” (if that answers your question as to how as a parent I would raise my children).

On that note, maybe I had better take a break. I hope that my exposure of the mind games that I have experienced will serve as a warning to help other singles filter out the bad advice and garbage, but at the same time I’m afraid it is affecting my charity.

 

[chevalier]

Why am I not surprised that “Donna Corleone” herself popped her head in here ?

I think there might be something there you might be reluctant to admit.

 

[Norseman82]

I think there might be something there you might be reluctant to admit.

If what I am suspecting you are thinking is correct, I actually did start to post that something along the lines of how many others are thinking the same thing, but I was running up against a character limit and didn’t know how it would be taken.

 

[chevalier]

If what I am suspecting you are thinking is correct, I actually did start to post that something along the lines of how many others are thinking the same thing, but I was running up against a character limit and didn’t know how it would be taken.

No, what I was thinking about was something that would rather often find itself outside the character limit.

I do believe that in the dictionary, there is a picture of you, next to the word…ANALYTICAL! This too made me laugh!

Welcome to episode 156472351 of House JD tonight!

 

[havana1]

I have a question for the singles posting in this thread.

Do you enjoy dating and meeting new people?

Do I enjoy dating and meeting new people?

Smart ones? (i.e., know how to play chess, know the difference between cashmere and Kashmir, can name the PM of at least two European countries, etc.) YES. I like dating and meeting the SMART ONES.

However, the dumb ones - the ones who watch “reality television” like soap operas and who don’t have any musical knowledge beyond Britney and “American Idol,” who have the I.Q. of an egg timer? NO. Let the other guys find something of value from their acquaintances.

**I’m a firm believer in that notion that behind every successful guy is a woman who got him there. Those are the women I like to date - and they’re rare. **

 

[1ke]

Do I enjoy dating and meeting new people?

Smart ones? (i.e., know how to play chess, know the difference between cashmere and Kashmir, can name the PM of at least two European countries, etc.) YES. I like dating and meeting the SMART ONES.

However, the dumb ones - the ones who watch “reality television” like soap operas and who don’t have any musical knowledge beyond Britney and “American Idol,” who have the I.Q. of an egg timer? NO. Let the other guys find something of value from their acquaintances.

I’m a firm believer in that notion that behind every successful guy is a woman who got him there. Those are the women I like to date - and they’re rare.

Wow, that’s so attractive. I can’t imagine why you are still single.

 

[kage_ar]

There’s no CAF forum for “singles.” We have to be lumped together under “family life.” If you don’t see the irony in that, I dunno know what I say.

Because we are all part of a family - every person here is a son or a daughter or a brother or a sister or a nephew or an aunt… family is so much more than man+wife+2.4 kids.

 

[chevalier]

I’m a firm believer in that notion that behind every successful guy is a woman who got him there.

Mother?