Finding a suitable spouse

[Agripa]

Agripa, you really sound bitter. That is not healthy. I hope you can heal and move on from that. But in order to do that, you need to look at and own YOUR part in all this and stop blaming everyone and everything else.

You say you are no less worthy of a pious, religious spouse than the next fellow. Well, unfortunately, yes you are, if you are not going to be a pious, religious spouse yourself. You seem to demand something of your wife that you are not willing to give or do yourself. That is unfair and unequal. When you are a pious, religious fellow, then a pious, religious woman will desire to marry you. Probably the priest helped your girlfriend see that as a very serious, devoted Catholic, she could not hope to have an equally yoked, happy, strong marriage with a lukewarm Catholic.

Become the spouse you want to have. Then you will find the spouse you want and deserve.

My DH is a serious Catholic devoted to the Church and his faith. I was a baptized but fallen away Catholic when we started dating. As we got serious and fell in love, and began talking marriage, I asked him how important it was to him to get married in the Church. He told me, pain and fear in his eyes, that if we did not get married in the Catholic Church, there would be no marriage. He was afraid of losing me, but more afraid of compromising his faith and being untrue to himself and God. In his case, it paid off. He was the impetus for me to return to the Church and become a much more serious, faithful, and practicing (Mass every Sunday and Holy Day) Catholic. I wanted him badly enough that he drew me back to God. He made being serious about faith a condition of our further involvement, and I admit that, at the time, I wanted him badly enough that that was my motivation. I have since reaped other rewards. I am so much more content and at peace now that I have reconciled with the Church. And my family is unified, faithful, and harmonious. I cannot describe for you adequately the benefits of being unified in this way, sharing our faith, and walking the path to God together.

By making the distinction between the pious/seriously faithful, and those who use their free will and rational mind, BTW, you are being very insulting. I have my issues with some of the Church’s teachings and with some of the actions taken by the Vatican… but since I believe the Catholic Church has the fullness of the truth about God and Jesus Christ, I choose to accept and live with the things that cause me difficulty, in order to stay close to that truth and keep it in my life. That is a rational choice, born of free will, based on benefit/loss calculations.

In short, again, become a serious, faithful Catholic, and you will both deserve and more easily find a serious, faithful Catholic spouse.

Forgive my pointed questions in this thread, and if a certain bitterness is perceived by a reader in the pointedness, so be it, but I seek insights and want defenses of them.

Strangely, as I read your post, I feel you were very lucky in your situation. You may or may not have been, at the time, as devoted a Catholic as your spouse, but a chance was given to you and it proved in your benefit over time. That is the same thing I wanted - and was certainly willing, as you were, to be open to the expectations of a pious spouse.

I wonder, if in that critical time when your future spouse gave you the chance to accept his position and you had that heart to heart talk that set out your shared path together, would you have appreciated any third party entering that critical discussion and effecting its outcome?

And please, do not assume I am not pious - piety is a humble submission to God and I am submitted to the will of God, though I submit to no man.

 

[basilisk]

If my husband had asked a priest, and the priest advised him against marrying me… it’s still HIS decision, not the priest.

Your girlfriend was not a computer into which the priest loaded commands she had no choice to obey. She could have chosen not to take his advice and to give you a chance, using her free will. She chose differently.

Your beef is with HER. Stop blaming the priest. I think you are using that as a defense mechanism to avoid looking at your contribution. If he MADE her break up with you, then nothing in YOU caused the breakup. But if she CHOSE to break up with you, then there is something about you that led her to do that.

I think that is what you are avoiding having to face by continuing to blame the priest and seeing him as an interloper. Priests are supposed to give spiritual guidance in our most important life matters. Especially when they are ASKED to do so! He did his job. She made her own decision.

 

[Agripa]

If my husband had asked a priest, and the priest advised him against marrying me… it’s still HIS decision, not the priest.

Your girlfriend was not a computer into which the priest loaded commands she had no choice to obey. She could have chosen not to take his advice and to give you a chance, using her free will. She chose differently.

Your beef is with HER. Stop blaming the priest. I think you are using that as a defense mechanism to avoid looking at your contribution. If he MADE her break up with you, then nothing in YOU caused the breakup. But if she CHOSE to break up with you, then there is something about you that led her to do that.

I think that is what you are avoiding having to face by continuing to blame the priest and seeing him as an interloper. Priests are supposed to give spiritual guidance in our most important life matters. Especially when they are ASKED to do so! He did his job. She made her own decision.

You seem angry with my questions. Again, in what may have been a similar set of circumstances, your outcome proved a happy one for you. For that, I am sure you are happy and indeed, I am happy for you!

As for my contribution, I had and have much to contribute to a spouse, a cause or a career, wherever it is that God leads, I will go and contribute.

 

[basilisk]

You seem angry with my questions.

Not angry, just trying to point out that you are being unfair to the priest. And placing blame in the wrong place.

 

[daughterofmary]

This hasn’t been brought up, but there is a chance that she broke up with you because she just could not date you. God was calling her to something else. Perhaps she had a vocation. The priest knew this, and advised her on it. That is a possibility, unless you know the reason she broke up with you or you know where she is today.

Then too, It is really difficult to be a woman in love with the Church and Christ and have a husband that cannot guide you spiritually or that you have to lead and guide… to have to constantly be the one to make the moral decisions for the marriage and make sure the marriage is pleasing to God. A girl wants a husband who can lead her spiritually and help her too. A woman is suppose to be able to obey her husband and trust him to do the will of God. But, when that man doesn’t have the same morals as you and doesn’t even look at marriage with the same Catholic perspective… it is just hard.

And as for the Watsons… the family shouldn’t be what it is all about. It should be all about God. The Catholic faith should be all over the Catholic family. She shouldn’t have to practice it to herself and pull you a long. The children deserve more then just a Catholic education (which really isn’t very Catholic anyway these days).

And it is difficult to have to raise children in an environment where daddy doesn’t practice the faith as much as you desire for your children too. It is hard for a woman to want her sons to be raised with a certain Catholic way of thinking of their manhood but yet their father cannot offer them that.

Since it didn’t work out this obviously wasn’t God’s will. No doubt, being the supposedly pious girl she was she prayed about it and she knew what she was doing was the will of God. Have you prayed about it? Maybe if you do you will come to the same conclusion.

I am sure she prays for you, if she is the woman you describe her to be. I think it is time to move on.

 

[chevalier]

Now that, granted is a TV show, not reality, but considering the series was based on an autobiography, I suspect there was some truth in that observation by the writer. So my question is, can not two people of varying levels of obediance to the Church still find common bond in caring for family, for each other and still allow each enough individuality to express their faith as their conscience dictates? I think with compromise and tolerance, that is achievable if survival and growth of the family is paramount.

Firstly, God is paramount, family is second. Secondly, expressing faith in contradictory ways is not good for any children of such a marriage. Children cannot be brought up in two faiths simultaneously.

As far as contraception, which is really a personal matter,

No, it is not. It is a social matter for one and a matter of morality for the other, which means it’s not up to individual judgement.

I would respect the religious dictates of my spouse in that regard at all times.

So you wouldn’t ask her to use contraception. But would you yourself still use it? It doesn’t feel great knowing your spouse is using contraception, I imagine.

This is critical for my position of what is a matter of deep love between a couple - I may or may not agree with the Churche’s position, but if I truly love and support my spouse, I must respect her moral conviction in this regard - so for me to be open at all times for procreative generation is not necessarily at odds with my particular belief, though I can still respect and support her belief in this regard.

Hmm… I won’t make up my mind about you at this point, though that’s surely interesting. I will agree that you sound a bit bitter, maybe hurt. Tried getting back in touch with the Catholic faith? Discussing what gives you difficulty?

 

[AveSantaMaria]

Maybe you might consider **seeking the God who shaped her! **

From the spiritual exercises of St. Ignatius,

Man is created to praise, reverence, and serve God our Lord, and by this means to save his soul. And the other things on the face of this earth are created for man and they may help him in prosecuting the end for which he is created. From this it follows that man is to use them as much as they help him on to his end, and ought to rid himself of them so far as they hinder him as to it.

For this it is necessary to make ourselves indifferent to all created things in all that is allowed to the choice of our free will and not prohibited to it; so that, on our part, we want not health rather than sickness, riches rather than poverty, honor rather than dishonor, long rather than short life, and so in all the rest; desiring and choosing only that which is most conducive for us to the end for which we are created.

woodstock.georgetown.edu/ignatius/passages1-25.htm

An ideal married life might be Blessed Louis-Martin and Blessed Marie-Azelie Martin. Louis wanted to be a monk, but was rejected due to his lack of knowledge of Latin and decided to be a watchmaker. He fell in love with Marie-Azelie, a lacemaker who wanted to be a nun but could not because of sickness. They had nine children, but only five daughters survived infancy, all of whom joined the Carmelite convent.

One of their dauthers is St. Therese of Liseux, one of the 3 female Doctors of the Catholic Church, who always wanted to be a missionary, but was too sickly to be sent and died at 24. Mother Teresa’s birth name was Agnes Gonxha Bojaxhiu and she renamed herself after St. Therese of Liseux.: a former British citizen of Albanian descent became one of the greatest missionaries that the world has ever known, winning a Noble Peace Prize in 1979, India’s highest honor the Bharat Ratna (“Jewel of India”) in 1980, popularly voted the greatet Indian since the country’s independence in 1947 (excluding Gandhi from consideration) by Indian magazine Outlook in 2002. Inspiring that St. Therese of Liseux, Patron Saint of Missionaries, said *“I will spend my Heaven doing good on Earth.” * Mother Teresa’s book on Words of Love is remarkably similar to St. Therese of Liseux’s autobiography: The Story of a Soul gutenberg.org/etext/16772

Successful mixed marriage: Elisabeth Lesur lived in Paris until her death in 1914. She silently offered all her sufferings for the conversion of her atheist husband, Felix. After her death, Felix read Elisabeth’s spiritual diary amazon.com/Secret-Diary-Elisabeth-Leseur-Goodness/dp/1928832482/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230475024&sr=1-1 and later became a priest. The most famous may be Saint Monica - Santa Monica Pier - (her husband converted on his deathbed but her son was St. Augustine, one of the Doctors of the Church and presiders of the Synod of Hippo where the Canon was first declared),

Deeply saddening mixed marriage: St. Rita en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Rita_of_Cascia

Confessions of St. Augustine newadvent.org/fathers/1101.htm

God allows free will and maybe no sin exists in breaking off a courtship!

Do not be yoked with those who are different, with unbelievers. For what partnership do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what fellowship does light have with darkness? What accord has Christ with Beliar? Or what has a believer in common with an unbeliever? What agreement has the temple of God with idols? For we are the temple of the living God; as God said: “I will live with them and move among them, and I will be their God and they shall be my people. Therefore, come forth them and be separate,” says the Lord, “and touch nothing unclean; then I will receive you and I will be a father to you, and you shall be sons and daughters to me, says the Lord Almighty.” 2 Corinthians 6:14-18

To the rest I say (not the Lord): if any brother has a wife who is an unbeliever and she is willing to go on living with him, he should not divorce her; and if any woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to go on living with her, she should not divorce her husband. For the unbelieving husband is made holy through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is made holy through the brother. Otherwise your children would be unclean, whears in fact they are holy. If the unbeliever separates, however, let him separate. The brother or sister is not bound in such cases. God has called you to peace. For how do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband: or how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?1 Corinthians 7:12-16

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[AveSantaMaria]

P.S. I have been on both ends - the breakupper and the one not chosen, and I suspect that in most cases, spiritual reasons lay behind it - mixed with a few wordly things. Yet I think of myself as extremely blessed, All things work for the good for those who love God, who are called unto his purpose".Romans 8:28 I think all parties involved are now happier and more emotionally and spiritually mature than they were during the relationships. I’m not sure that I would change things for the world since it seems that what happened was God’s will for my life. Despite all that it did take some time to heal when I was the one not chosen. I know someone who once went into therapy after a relationship broke up.

You are in my prayers!! You might also try praying for yourself and her!! What have you got to lose Scientific studies show that it helps and I’m not sure how it could help.

For success in one’s vocation in life
“I think that I did not miss a single day in reciting it,[the Rosary] including in the most terrible times of battle when I had no rest night or day. How often did I see her manifest intercession in the decisions which I made in choosing a precise tactic. Take then, the advice of an old soldier seasoned by experience: Do not neglect the recitation of the Rosary for any reason.” – Marshal Foch, great military leader of WWI.

I think that our current Chief Justice of the Supreme Court John Roberts says it once a day as well

A Rosary is about 10-15 minutes. rosary-center.org/howto.htm
A Divine Mercy Chaplet takes about 5 minutes to say.
Divine Mercy Chaplet ewtn.com/Devotionals/mercy/dmmap.htm

Take care!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse. Come Holy Spirit, come by means of the powerful intercession of the Immaculate Heart of Mary, your well beloved spouse.

For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world! For the sake of his sorrowful passion, have mercy on us and on the whole world!

O Mary, conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee!
Sorrowful and Immaculate Heart of Mary, pray for us!

*Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women and blessed is the fruit of Thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen. *

 

[whatevergirl]

When I was leaving graduate school to start a career, I very much wanted to find a Catholic spouse. I was never very religious but began dating a very decent, very devout Catholic woman and I very much wanted to marry her as I felt she was very intelligent, beautiful, she clearly loved children and I felt she could help me spiritually become a better person.

As we grew closer over several months time, and I made my intentions known, she went to a priest at some point and after that, she broke off our relationship. I was deeply hurt and carry not a little anger towards the woman and her priest for encouraging the breakup. This priest did not know me and I never had any type of discussion with him.

My question is this. Would a priest encourage a devout, pious woman to only marry a similar type person? And if in advising a woman to break off a relationship and in reliance on that advice, she ends the relationship and brings pain to another, does the priest carry responsibility to the person harmed?

It’s hard to say without knowing what the woman you mention, said to the priest. She might have had a different opinion of where things were heading than you, or saw things in you that you were unaware that she felt, and she mentioned those things to the priest. Hard to say. But, in reading through the thread, you seem to be at peace with your singlehood…and it’s a blessing, to always be content in wherever God places us. Good luck to you.

 

[Agripa]

Firstly, God is paramount, family is second. Secondly, expressing faith in contradictory ways is not good for any children of such a marriage. Children cannot be brought up in two faiths simultaneously.

No, it is not. It is a social matter for one and a matter of morality for the other, which means it’s not up to individual judgement.

So you wouldn’t ask her to use contraception. But would you yourself still use it? It doesn’t feel great knowing your spouse is using contraception, I imagine.

Hmm… I won’t make up my mind about you at this point, though that’s surely interesting. I will agree that you sound a bit bitter, maybe hurt. Tried getting back in touch with the Catholic faith? Discussing what gives you difficulty?

First, no one can reallymake up their mind about anyone on a web post - there simply is not enough solid interaction to do that, although you could make up your mind about my stated positions on matters we might discuss.

And not to belabor the point, but as I said, I would respect my spouse’s position on contraception and know full well that has to work both ways - if she held the beliff in line with Church teaching of not permitting herself artificial means of contraception, then for the sake of her and the marriage, I too would abide for I too want children and I respect her, though that is entirely seperate from whether or not I agree with the Church in that regard.

As far as God being paramount to family, I would disagree - family is primordial and its love is generally demonstrably real and nurturing. Survival and protection of the family is our first responsibility. When the idea of God is lifted above family and man, then we get into real difficulties - Abraham nearly killed Isac because he elevated his extreme faith over the well being of a young child - if you beleive the tale - and that was horrific and yet another example of the primitive violence found and elevated throughout the Bible.

As far as children being brought up in two faiths, I would fully agree that a devout Jew and a devout Catholic probably are going to be at loggerheads over raising children in one faith. However, that I am Catholic only by baptism and culture would certainly not prevent me from fully consenting to have any child I may have to be raised as a Catholic if only for the reason that the education is genrally better than most public educations, the moral direction and enforcement is necessary for children and Catholic precepts in general offer a reasonable construct in which children can clearly grow and thrive.

 

[Agripa]

It’s hard to say without knowing what the woman you mention, said to the priest. She might have had a different opinion of where things were heading than you, or saw things in you that you were unaware that she felt, and she mentioned those things to the priest. Hard to say. But, in reading through the thread, you seem to be at peace with your singlehood…and it’s a blessing, to always be content in wherever God places us. Good luck to you.

I am - and I am fully at peace in knowing my heart then and now was in the right place. Whatever the hardship, it led me to think of things I never had before and it profoundly changed the direction of my life for the better in some ways.

 

[Agripa]

This hasn’t been brought up, but there is a chance that she broke up with you because she just could not date you. God was calling her to something else. Perhaps she had a vocation. The priest knew this, and advised her on it. That is a possibility, unless you know the reason she broke up with you or you know where she is today.

Then too, It is really difficult to be a woman in love with the Church and Christ and have a husband that cannot guide you spiritually or that you have to lead and guide… to have to constantly be the one to make the moral decisions for the marriage and make sure the marriage is pleasing to God. A girl wants a husband who can lead her spiritually and help her too. A woman is suppose to be able to obey her husband and trust him to do the will of God. But, when that man doesn’t have the same morals as you and doesn’t even look at marriage with the same Catholic perspective… it is just hard.

And as for the Watsons… the family shouldn’t be what it is all about. It should be all about God. The Catholic faith should be all over the Catholic family. She shouldn’t have to practice it to herself and pull you a long. The children deserve more then just a Catholic education (which really isn’t very Catholic anyway these days).

And it is difficult to have to raise children in an environment where daddy doesn’t practice the faith as much as you desire for your children too. It is hard for a woman to want her sons to be raised with a certain Catholic way of thinking of their manhood but yet their father cannot offer them that.

Since it didn’t work out this obviously wasn’t God’s will. No doubt, being the supposedly pious girl she was she prayed about it and she knew what she was doing was the will of God. Have you prayed about it? Maybe if you do you will come to the same conclusion.

I am sure she prays for you, if she is the woman you describe her to be. I think it is time to move on.

I live in the 21st century and will offer hard work, faithfulness material well being and partnership with a suitable woman - I will not provide paternalistic guidance in matters of faith - that is for her to find or maintain.

For me, she simply must be independent, educated and desire children. Preferably, I want a Catholic woman for that is my culture and identity, and its something I want to pass to my children - at least in their formative years. I do not think that is extreme and frankly, that’s most likely what I many modern Catholic couples expect.

 

[whatevergirl]

I live in the 21st century and will offer hard work, faithfulness material well being and partnership with a suitable woman - I will not provide paternalistic guidance in matters of faith - that is for her to find or maintain.

It’s interesting you say this, because for a long time, in my own marriage, I was the one who was the spiritual force if you will, with attending mass, getting the kids into religious education, and having them obtain certain Sacraments. I think that it isn’t a father’s sole responsibility to guide such a ship, I think it is a partnership…but, what many posters are trying to convey to you, is that it might be hard to gain that partnership, if you yourself are not practicing the faith as much as you could be. That’s all.

For me, she simply must be independent, educated and desire children. Preferably, I want a Catholic woman for that is my culture and identity, and its something I want to pass to my children - at least in their formative years. I do not think that is extreme and frankly, that’s most likely what I many modern Catholic couples expect.

 

[whatevergirl]

I am - and I am fully at peace in knowing my heart then and now was in the right place. Whatever the hardship, it led me to think of things I never had before and it profoundly changed the direction of my life for the better in some ways.

That’s what the journey is all about–growing in holiness…good for you, agripa…God bless!

 

[chevalier]

First, no one can reallymake up their mind about anyone on a web post - there simply is not enough solid interaction to do that, although you could make up your mind about my stated positions on matters we might discuss.

And that said we probably don’t need to pull it further.

And not to belabor the point, but as I said, I would respect my spouse’s position on contraception and know full well that has to work both ways - if she held the beliff in line with Church teaching of not permitting herself artificial means of contraception, then for the sake of her and the marriage, I too would abide for I too want children and I respect her, though that is entirely seperate from whether or not I agree with the Church in that regard.

That says very good of you and that kind of kindness is rarely found in people. However, sometimes people change. You never have guarantee with anyone, but with people who hold themselves to be the supreme judges of their morality, there’s always the risk that they will change their views and, consequently, their behaviour.

As far as God being paramount to family, I would disagree - family is primordial and its love is generally demonstrably real and nurturing.

And God is not? Remember, you may be agnostic, but the Catholic belief is that God exists, not that He likely does or does until proven not to, or exists more likely than not. Therefore, God is not any less real than tangible physical things.

Survival and protection of the family is our first responsibility.

Our first responsibility is our relationship with God. We serve God in serving other people, but God is more important than people are, including spouses, parents, children.

When the idea of God is lifted above family and man, then we get into real difficulties - Abraham nearly killed Isac because he elevated his extreme faith over the well being of a young child - if you beleive the tale - and that was horrific and yet another example of the primitive violence found and elevated throughout the Bible.

And we might be getting to the core of the problem. If we are going to abridge the Bible and trim down the faith to what we consider proper, we might as well dispense with it altogether. The answer to difficulties in understanding something is not cutting it out, but rather finding out more about it. Did you notice that Abraham did not revolt against God, declaring God unrighteous, but rather that God sent an angel to give Abraham an animal to sacrifice and prevent him from sacrificing his son?

As far as children being brought up in two faiths, I would fully agree that a devout Jew and a devout Catholic probably are going to be at loggerheads over raising children in one faith. However, that I am Catholic only by baptism and culture would certainly not prevent me from fully consenting to have any child I may have to be raised as a Catholic if only for the reason that the education is genrally better than most public educations, the moral direction and enforcement is necessary for children and Catholic precepts in general offer a reasonable construct in which children can clearly grow and thrive.

It’s not just a construct, a philosophical foundation, an education. There’s more to it and that more includes beliefs, interaction with God. And yes, it also includes the belief in the Church’s teachings.

 

[Sacred_Ground]

I live in the 21st century and will offer hard work, faithfulness material well being and partnership with a suitable woman - I will not provide paternalistic guidance in matters of faith - that is for her to find or maintain.

For me, she simply must be independent, educated and desire children. Preferably, I want a Catholic woman for that is my culture and identity, and its something I want to pass to my children - at least in their formative years. I do not think that is extreme and frankly, that’s most likely what I many modern Catholic couples expect.

Hmm, will you not offer her love? I’m not sure marriage should be described so objectively. Everything should be a union of love between two people - and faithfulness, partnership etc… come as a result of that.

 

[Agripa]

Hmm, will you not offer her love? I’m not sure marriage should be described so objectively. Everything should be a union of love between two people - and faithfulness, partnership etc… come as a result of that.

I intentionally did not use love becuase the trads seem to discount love (i.e. the romantic kind) as a necessity for there to be a valid marriage. I certainly do feel one should have a strong sence of love and devotion to a spouse, and none of what I said in the post could be given if love were not there from the start.

So yes, to your question, if love is a full and total giving of one self, life, spirit and body, then that would be what I would give.

 

[daughterofmary]

I live in the 21st century and will offer hard work, faithfulness material well being and partnership with a suitable woman - I will not provide paternalistic guidance in matters of faith - that is for her to find or maintain.

For me, she simply must be independent, educated and desire children. Preferably, I want a Catholic woman for that is my culture and identity, and its something I want to pass to my children - at least in their formative years. I do not think that is extreme and frankly, that’s most likely what I many modern Catholic couples expect.

Respectfully, I live in the 21st century as well, and I find that many women want someone who can lead them spiritually or at least aid them in some way. She shouldn’t have to find and maintain her faith on her own in a marriage.

St. Monica and St. Rita did that and look at the suffering they endured.

You said you expected her to make you a better Catholic and what not… well, that is unfair. It unfair to force her to have to lead you and lead the entire relationship spiritually while you just tell her, “find your own faith and do it yourself.” Unfair.

Hard work. Faithfulness. Material well-being. Those are all fine and nifty, but those are not the point of marriage. Marriage is means by which one is led to holiness. It is a vocation. It is where two people help each other to get to heaven. No amount of hardwork, faithfulness, or material-well being is going to help her progress in holiness.

And partnership. What kind of partnership says, “find your own faith and maintain it yourself.”

And love. True love cannot exist if her eternal well-being is not your top priority next to your eternal well being. If you truly loved her you would be concerned with the real thing that matters: her salvation. However, respectfully, you are concerned with yourself.

 

[daughterofmary]

I intentionally did not use love becuase the trads seem to discount love (i.e. the romantic kind) as a necessity for there to be a valid marriage. I certainly do feel one should have a strong sence of love and devotion to a spouse, and none of what I said in the post could be given if love were not there from the start.

So yes, to your question, if love is a full and total giving of one self, life, spirit and body, then that would be what I would give.

Well, I am not a 'trad" so you could have used it.

“Romantic love” fizzles away and is based on feelings that go and come. True love - the love of the cross - wants what is best for the beloved. Her eternal salvation is what is the best for her, but you say - “hey, get there yourself! good luck!”



She deserved something better then what you were offering.

 

[Salonika]

But I tend to agree she owes ya some kind of explanation, but if she won’t give it, so be it and move on.

I agree - its difficult to get closure on a relationship if you don’t know why the other person ended it. When you know you at least know if it was because of somethnig you could have done something about or something you could have done nothing about.

If you knew you could also decide whether you want to handle some aspects of other relationships differently.

Remember relationships involve two or more people - it may be that the reason had nothing/little to do with you but with her.