Finding God and Salvation

[OneBlanketBoss]

When you isolate one scripture from the whole, you begin the path of contradiction and greatly misunderstanding One God who makes known, divine revelation in the procession of Trinity.

Let us focus on that verse alone and just for a moment separate it from the others in order to find out what that specific passage is trying to tell us. Jesus said, “the Father is Greater then I”. To me, this verse speaks for itself because it clearly confesses the Father of Jesus is higher then himself.

Now lets focus on the verse you mentioned above, “Before Abraham was, I AM”. Without doubt Jesus boldly claims he is the God of Abraham.

When we don’t tend to isolate the verses that describe the nature of Jesus according to the Gospels, you have a contradiction regardless. In one verse, Jesus is saying God is greater then him, and elsewhere he claims to be One with God.

To “assume the God of Abraham is greater than the founder of Christianity” reveals a lack of understanding in the True Trinity. The Father is greater than the Son, because the Father eternally begets the Son in Trinity of divine procession (divine revelation). We Catholics profess that the Son is con-substantial with the Father, ONE GOD in Divine Essence.

How can I lack understanding in something that can not even be understood?

 

[ZenFred]

Let us focus on that verse alone and just for a moment separate it from the others in order to find out what that specific passage is trying to tell us. Jesus said, “the Father is Greater then I”. To me, this verse speaks for itself because it clearly confesses the Father of Jesus is higher then himself.

Now lets focus on the verse you mentioned above, “Before Abraham was, I AM”. Without doubt Jesus boldly claims he is the God of Abraham.

When we don’t tend to isolate the verses that describe the nature of Jesus according to the Gospels, you have a contradiction regardless. In one verse, Jesus is saying God is greater then him, and elsewhere he claims to be One with God.

How can I lack understanding in something that can not even be understood?

carm.org/john-1428-father-greater-i
This seems to be typical response to your question which is that God the Father was seen as the greater authority since Jesus had emptjed Himself in the incarnation in order to be fully human, while remaining fully divine.
It’s my heretical two cents that in studying scripture you need to let each text speak for itself and not retroactively interpret it. The writer of John clearly believes Jesus is divine, see John 1. It would be a stretch to say he was trinitarian though. John really isn’t a theologian and has a strong mystical emphasis so we might be reading too much into returning to a greater Father. There is definitely Greek philosophy influence elsewhere in John so perhaps it some underlying Plato here. The incarnate God returning to His higher unicarnate state. But who knows you’d have to ask John. All I’m saying is the gospel writer probably would not have agreed with the later creeds completely or at least needed them explained to him.

I’m with you on how can I lack understanding… the Quran puts it well. How can we who do not understand simple and visible things, claim understanding of those heavenly things of which we have no knowledge?

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

carm.org/john-1428-father-greater-i
This seems to be typical response to your question which is that God the Father was seen as the greater authority since Jesus had emptjed Himself in the incarnation in order to be fully human, while remaining fully divine.
It’s my heretical two cents that in studying scripture you need to let each text speak for itself and not retroactively interpret it. The writer of John clearly believes Jesus is divine, see John 1. It would be a stretch to say he was trinitarian though. John really isn’t a theologian and has a strong mystical emphasis so we might be reading too much into returning to a greater Father. There is definitely Greek philosophy influence elsewhere in John so perhaps it some underlying Plato here. The incarnate God returning to His higher unicarnate state. But who knows you’d have to ask John. All I’m saying is the gospel writer probably would not have agreed with the later creeds completely or at least needed them explained to him.

Agreed! What about the rest of the cannons, does everything agree with the Catholics doctrine of Jesus? Obviously not. This is why I responded to Gabriel of 12, because he mentioned if you separate verses you begin a path of contradiction. Well, what if you don’t separate them and put them together? What is the outcome then?

I’m with you on how can I lack understanding… the Quran puts it well. How can we who do not understand simple and visible things, claim understanding of those heavenly things of which we have no knowledge?

Very interested in which verse you are referring to. But the reason I asked how can I Iack understanding, is because I am predicting this conversation would lead somebody to assume I am unaware of the teachings of the Trinity according to The Catholic Church. The Church clears states, 3 persons of the Trinity are One God in essence. God is both divine and Human and so forth. However, I am just trying to put an end to people saying their belief is better then others even when they lack understanding of their own teachings as well as others.

So if somebody wants to convince me I should worship a Triune God, how could I if I my whole life I experienced through my rational thinking that 3 separate things can never possible be One in essence. A Body is one and it consists of many parts, H20 has many elements, a family has many members ect. But the concept according to the Church teaching is that God is ONE unique God who exists, but is made up of 3 separate persons that add up to ONLY One God that is outside time and space.

 

[tgGodsway]

hello Gabriel of 12

I have a question for you. Is the holy Mass one and the same sacrifice with that of the cross at Calvary?

 

[ZenFred]

Agreed! What about the rest of the cannons, does everything agree with the Catholics doctrine of Jesus? Obviously not. This is why I responded to Gabriel of 12, because he mentioned if you separate verses you begin a path of contradiction. Well, what if you don’t separate them and put them together? What is the outcome then?

Very interested in which verse you are referring to. But the reason I asked how can I Iack understanding, is because I am predicting this conversation would lead somebody to assume I am unaware of the teachings of the Trinity according to The Catholic Church. The Church clears states, 3 persons of the Trinity are One God in essence. God is both divine and Human and so forth. However, I am just trying to put an end to people saying their belief is better then others even when they lack understanding of their own teachings as well as others.

So if somebody wants to convince me I should worship a Triune God, how could I if I my whole life I experienced through my rational thinking that 3 separate things can never possible be One in essence. A Body is one and it consists of many parts, H20 has many elements, a family has many members ect. But the concept according to the Church teaching is that God is ONE unique God who exists, but is made up of 3 separate persons that add up to ONLY One God that is outside time and space.

Here’s the verse from the Quran
“Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.” 3:66
(I’m tempted to do a quiz game of Bible or Quran for various verses. It’s often hard to tell.)
I had a moment that really brought me to see this for myself. I am a therapist in a nursing home and I was praying and contemplating while helping a patient with her exercises. It occurred to me, almost in a vision, that I have a master’s degree and have years of experience in how to strengthen and improve the function of the arm. I know the major muscles, bones and nerves by heart and know common disorders that can affect them. It’s my job, I’m the arm expert (PT does legs and feet, OT does arms and hands). But despite my knowledge there is no way I could build an arm from a supply of cells. I couldn’t even make one cell from component parts. I don’t understand the true nature of some tangible I’m very familiar with. How much less can I understand something beyond my perception, like theology. It was humbling!

I totally agree how experience doesn’t seem to support the trinity. For me, I experienced the reality and unity of God in meditation even when I wasn’t really a theist. It led me to study Judaism and Islam. But God is greater than our theological distinctions. If you want a fellow heretic to chat with send me a private message. Thanks for your posts.

 

[tgGodsway]

ZedFred, What exactly do you believe about the Trinity?

 

[ZenFred]

ZedFred, What exactly do you believe about the Trinity?

Haha…I don’t know.
My creed is “Hear oh Israel, the Lord is your God, the Lord is One.”
So I believe God is an unity. But so do trinitarians. Jesus himself quotes the Shema in Mark. 12;29.

I believe Jesus is the son of God. But we are all sons and daughters of God.
I believe Jesus is an annointed messiah. But there are many annointed kings and messiahs.

I believe God sends His Holy Spirit into the world and into the hearts of the faithful, His Shekhinah. But the Jews believe this and don’t consider it a separate Person of the Godhead.

Ultimately, I don’t think God cares about human belief or heresy regarding the trinity or the incarnation. He has revealed His message. Love God, Love neighbor. That message and His love and mercy is sufficient.
Jesus came to fulfill the Torah, not abolish it. So nothing he says refutes the revelation to Adam, Noah, Abraham or Jacob. God doesn’t change His mind. But this could be taken two ways either we all saved without Christ since God alone is sufficient OR we are all saved thru Christ though we might know Him by a different name. God doesn’t reveal the behind the scenes to me, just that we are loved and if we turn in repentance we are saved.
There is a Buddhist teaching, from the Pali Cannon, that I’m reminded of. A king is hit by a poison arrow and is nearing death without an antidote. Before he takes he demands to know who fired the arrow, if they were man or women, tall or short, old or young, etc. None of that matters nor could be determined. He just needs the antidote.

 

[tgGodsway]

You said, “My creed is “Hear oh Israel, the Lord is your God, the Lord is One.”
So I believe God is an unity. But so do trinitarians. Jesus himself quotes the Shema in Mark. 12;29”

I don’t know what Shema is, but Jesus quoted from the fifth book of the holy bible, (from Mark’s passage) He quoted Deuteronomy 6:4 “… hear O’ Israel the Lord God is ONE.” The word one( =ehad) in Hebrew is a composite word signifying plurality of unity. God gives us subtle hints to the plurality of His essence. Our God is not a solitary unit. But is fully realized through the New Testament as Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

You also said,

I believe Jesus is the son of God. But we are all sons and daughters of God.

Why do you believe we are all sons and daughters of God? Do you believe in the falleness of man when Adam and Eve ate the fruit and committed high treason against God? In that fall, Adam and his race broke away from God’s family and have been rebels ever since. Do you believe that? The bible teaches that Adam’s race is hostile toward God. They are not sons and daughters of God, but belong to Satan and his dark kingdom. See. 2nd. Cor. 4:4 “The god of this world had blinded the minds of the unbelieving…”

You said: I believe Jesus is an annointed messiah. But there are many annointed kings and messiahs. I believe God sends His Holy Spirit into the world and into the hearts of the faithful, His Shekhinah. But the Jews believe this and don’t consider it a separate Person of the Godhead.Ultimately, I don’t think God cares about human belief or heresy regarding the trinity or the incarnation. He has revealed His message. Love God, Love neighbor. That message and His love and mercy is sufficient.

I hear you sir. But the antidote is to come to know Jesus the Christ, the creator of all things in heaven and earth. If you can know this person for who He is, you will be saved eternally. The writer Luke wrote these words, “ There is no salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.” Acts. 4:12.

You are right there are many self proclaimed Messiah’s out there. But Jesus is King over all of them and all of them will bow to Him alone. This is the word of the Lord!

tgGodsway

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

hello Gabriel of 12

I have a question for you. Is the holy Mass one and the same sacrifice with that of the cross at Calvary?

Let us be clear here; That same sacrifice in Eucharistia is the same sacrifice at Calvary made present once and for all for all ages.

That which is eternal is made present before all ages, so that the many may be saved,

I have much much more to add to this. I am prepared to defend my position of the Holy Mass, should you have any more questions, in finding God and salvation.

What is your position of the Eucharist? The pinnacle and summit of the Catholic faith.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I knew of the Rabbinical rule of two witnesses but never in the context of the baptism of Jesus. That’s cool.
So I’ve been torn back and forth between faiths and struggling how to explain encountering God’s presence across traditions. The latest explaination I came up with is going back to Aquinas’ distinction between natural and special revelation. In hopping religions and in meditation I’ve been exploring natural revelation and natural theology which is accessible to all people both within and without scripture. It is self evident that God is One and He is good and we can seek mystical encounters with Him (or He seeks those moments with us). We also know that we are called to a moral and compassionate life of self denial. We don’t need Jesus to tell us that. He does tell us that, but in that context it’s not original.
That’s where adoration of the Host or some similar spiritual practice is so important. If you are right and Jesus Christ is not just one prophet of many with the same message as Muhammad (for example) then that’s the way I would know. I need to seek the Risen Christ and to test the spirits.
The Eastern Orthodox might disagree with you about icons that’s an intersting question.
But adoration of the Host is probably the best way to test this through prayer.
I’m not looking to see if I feel God’s presence, I already know I will. But rather to pray for an unique presence or unquie message that I don’t feel in a synagogue, mosque or zendo. As a finite human being who honestly seeks the Truth, I should humble myself to God alone and follow whatever He reveals. I’ll talk to the local church.
Sorry about the sanctified bread language. I was taught theology by lutherans. I do believe there is special presence within the elements once consecrated. Though I’m a metaphysical monist (all things have God as their ultimate source of being and reality in both their original cause but also sustaining their current reality). So the metaphysics of the eucarest (or the incarnation itself) gets tricky. But that’s why I want to discover by prayer instead of intellectual debate.
May God’s peace also be with you.

I sincerely appreciate your honesty from your post. If you seek God and His presence in your life. My recommendation to begin this path unto salvation, begins with baptism in the Trinity as Jesus Christ commands.

Upon receiving this free gift from God in baptism, God teaches you and reveals to you all Truth and understanding of divine revelation. Note this, God is never in a feeling. You will know Truth and begin the path of salvation with fear and trembling before God upon receiving the sacrament of baptism.

Peace be with you

 

[ZenFred]

The pinnacle and summit of the Catholic faith.

Gabriel of 12,

Wow! I think when you say the Eucharist is pinnacle of faith you really mean it and aren’t exaggerating. That’s a wonderful perspective that the sacraments are the focus of the faith and you’ve reminded me that’s how a catholic does see it.

I may have a lot of theological doubts but I don’t at all doubt that God is at work in His church and that is encountered in the sacraments and in the prayers. That’s another way of trying to explain my experience of God. God is fully encountered in prayer and in sacraments or simmilar rituals* in a sufficient and saving** way.
*simmilar rituals would be like the Jewish Handwashing or Shabbat or wearing Tefflin or Muslim Wadhu (ritual purification). I’m not sure how much God is encountered if you start just making stuff up,
**saving for me means not only eternal fate after death but also in an Eastern Orthodox sense of being freed from demonic forces and thoughts in the present. We saved each time we enter in prayer and we again become aware of God’s presence anew. It’s what you are referring to in the daily dying and rising with Christ.

 

[OneBlanketBoss]

Here’s the verse from the Quran
“Behold! you are they who disputed about that of which you had knowledge; why then do you dispute about that of which you have no knowledge? And Allah knows while you do not know.” 3:66
(I’m tempted to do a quiz game of Bible or Quran for various verses. It’s often hard to tell.)
I had a moment that really brought me to see this for myself. I am a therapist in a nursing home and I was praying and contemplating while helping a patient with her exercises. It occurred to me, almost in a vision, that I have a master’s degree and have years of experience in how to strengthen and improve the function of the arm. I know the major muscles, bones and nerves by heart and know common disorders that can affect them. It’s my job, I’m the arm expert (PT does legs and feet, OT does arms and hands). But despite my knowledge there is no way I could build an arm from a supply of cells. I couldn’t even make one cell from component parts. I don’t understand the true nature of some tangible I’m very familiar with. How much less can I understand something beyond my perception, like theology. It was humbling!

I totally agree how experience doesn’t seem to support the trinity. For me, I experienced the reality and unity of God in meditation even when I wasn’t really a theist. It led me to study Judaism and Islam. But God is greater than our theological distinctions. If you want a fellow heretic to chat with send me a private message. Thanks for your posts.

That’s awesome my friend. It looks like we have a similar way of thinking about perspectives. I am willing to message you just give me some time because I have to clear some things out privately and then we can perhaps engage in very interesting topics that are relevant to these forums.

 

[PJM]

Hello,

According to Paul, God is found only fully found thru faith in Christ and according to Catholic teaching the church is the best and most complete expression of God’s ministry on earth. Likewise Christianity as a whole and the Catholic Church in particular is the “fullest and surest means of salvation since it is based on the Pascal Mystery of the Son of God.” (Quoting Michael Mayo in a earlier thread). In other words Christianity claims to be the best way to find and be found and be saved by God.

Obviously a religion would usually claim to be the best or else people wouldn’t follow it. Naturally other religions also claim to be the best instead. Christianity, modern Judaism, and Islam all claim their faith is the truest expression of faith in God and the best means of salvation. How can we verify any of this? What criteria would you use to objectively tell as much possible where God could best be found?

-Fred

Thanks for asking FRED,

In a single word: TRUTH {which can be nothing other than singular per defined issue}, a FACT VERY often overlooked

Truth
BENEDICT XVI
Benedict says: “If we omit the truth, what do we do anything for?”

“Their cannot be your truth and my truth or there would be no truth”

FATHER HARDON, one f the most esteemed theologians of the 20th Century} taught this about TRUTH:

“Truth is the condition of grace, it is the source of grace, it is the channel of grace, it is the divinely ordained requirement of grace.” ….Father was a friend and occasional mentor of mine.

Ps.145 Verses 17 to 18 “
[17] The LORD is just in all his ways, and kind in all his doings. [18] The LORD is near to all who call upon him, to all who call upon him in truth.

Dictionary Definition of “Truth”

1. The true or actual state of a matter:
   conformity with fact or reality; verity: the truth of a statement
2. a verified or indisputable fact, proposition, principle, or the like mathematical truths.
3. the state or character of being true.
4. actuality or actual existence.
5. an obvious or accepted fact; truism; platitude.
6. honesty; integrity; truthfulness.
7. (often initial capital letter) ideal or fundamental reality apart from and
   transcending perceived experience:
8. agreement with a standard or original.
   9… accuracy, as of position or adjustment.
9. Archaic. Fidelity or constancy.** End quotes**

John.8 Verses 43 to 47: “Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. You are of your father the devil, and your will is to do your father’s desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, and has nothing to do with the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks according to his own nature, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

But, because I tell the truth, you do not believe me. Which of you convicts me of sin? If I tell the truth, why do you not believe me? He who is of God hears the words of God; the reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God."

John 1 :17 “because while the law was given through Moses, grace and truth came through Jesus Christ”

2 Cor. 13: “8 For we cannot do anything against the truth, but only for the truth.”

John 8: 31-32 ”Jesus then said to the Jews who had believed in him, “If you continue in my word, you are truly my disciples, and you will know the truth, and the truth will make you free.”

*Gal. 2: “5 to them we did not yield submission even for a moment, that the truth of the gospel might be preserved for you.”

2 John 8-9 Anyone who is so “progressive” as not to remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God; whoever remains in the teaching has the Father and the Son

John 14: 16-17 And I will pray the Father, and he will give you another Counselor, to be with you forever, even the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees him nor knows him; you know him, for he dwells with you, and will be in you.

2 Tim. 4: “3-5 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings, and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths. As for you, always be steady, endure suffering, do the work of an evangelist, fulfill your ministry.”

*2 Tim. 1: “13 Follow the pattern of the sound words which you have heard from me, in the faith and love which are in Christ Jesus; 14 guard the truth that has been entrusted to you by the Holy Spirit who dwells within us.”

Col. 1: 5 because of the hope laid up for you in heaven. Of this you have heard before in the word of the truth, the gospel which has come to you, as indeed in the whole world it is bearing fruit and growing–so among yourselves, from the day you heard and understood the grace of God in truth,”

John 14: “6 Jesus said to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father, but by me.”

*John 17: 14-19 “I have given them thy word; and the world has hated them because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. I do not pray that thou shouldst take them out of the world, but that thou shouldst keep them from the evil one. They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. Sanctify them in the truth; thy word is truth. 18 As thou didst send me into the world, so I have sent them into the world. And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth.”

It’s no more difficult than this reality to reach it’s attainment though requires God’s GRACE and humility.

God Bless you, and GUIDE your path
Patrick

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

OneBlanketBoss;14859921]Let us focus on that verse alone and just for a moment separate it from the others in order to find out what that specific passage is trying to tell us. Jesus said, “the Father is Greater then I”. To me, this verse speaks for itself because it clearly confesses the Father of Jesus is higher then himself.

“You heard that I said to you, 'I go away, and I will come to you ’ If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced because I go to the Father, for the Father is greater (meizon) than I.” John 14:28

When we (Christians) focus on the above verse alone. Jesus is clearly revealing His position as fully human on earth, and the Father’s position in heaven is greater than Jesus. Jesus reveals His full humanity on earth, as the Son of the Father, is inferior to the Father’s position in heaven.

Notice in the verse, Jesus relates to the position of Father and Son. Jesus has not revealed God’s eternal Essence or divine nature, (which He shares with the Father) from the scripture in question here. What your verse deals with is the position or relation of the Father to the Son in procession of divine revelation from eternity to space and time, or divine revelation sent from the Father in heaven into space and time through the Son =Jesus who is the Word of God, and the Word is God.

Here is another scripture which supports Jesus, mine and your position that when the Father in heaven is greater than the Son in full humanity on earth.

“Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus, who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped, but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men. And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” Philippians 2:5-8

I ask you, which is greater the Voice (of God) from the Father, or the Word (of God) = Jesus incarnate which is sent? That which sends is greater than that which proceeds from that which sends. The Father sends the Son. This divine procession in Trinity is what created creation, sustains creation, gives life and takes life, and is the cause for existence to exist both in the physical (material universe) and the invisible (spiritual) reality.

When we take ALL of what the Word of God incarnate = Jesus, who divinely reveals in space and time, makes revelation that Jesus is fully God and fully human, amen.

Now lets focus on the verse you mentioned above, “Before Abraham was, I AM”. Without doubt Jesus boldly claims he is the God of Abraham.

This is one of many versus which Jesus reveals His divine nature of who He is “Before Abraham was”, The IAM, which is the name God reveals to Moses from the burning bush. And the Jews in Jesus time tried to stone Him for blasphemy.

When we don’t tend to isolate the verses that describe the nature of Jesus according to the Gospels, you have a contradiction regardless. In one verse, Jesus is saying God is greater then him, and elsewhere he claims to be One with God.

When God’s Word is taken in Faith, there is never a contradiction to God’s Word. Secondly, When God is giving divine revelation to our humanity in procession from the Father in heaven through the Word of God incarnate. We can isolate each Word and take in each divine revelation when there is never a contradiction. When Jesus reveals His full human nature from when He speaks in space and time, in comparison to when Jesus reveals His divine nature and power, when He walks on water, raises a dead man after four days, speaks to Moses and Elijah at the Transfiguration to name a few examples.

How can I lack understanding in something that can not even be understood?

I can answer your question in keeping with the OP. The Short answer is Faith supersedes carnal understanding in divine revelation. To gain divine revelation in faith, is to enter the Kingdom of God through baptism. When one receives the sacrament of baptism, it is here, we begin the path into eternal Salvation and finding God, who is the ONE who teaches us.

Peace be with you

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

ZenFred;14861192]Gabriel of 12,

Wow! I think when you say the Eucharist is pinnacle of faith you really mean it and aren’t exaggerating. That’s a wonderful perspective that the sacraments are the focus of the faith and you’ve reminded me that’s how a catholic does see it.

For the record;
**CCC 1324 The Eucharist is “the source and summit of the Christian life.”**136 "The other sacraments, and indeed all ecclesiastical ministries and works of the apostolate, are bound up with the Eucharist and are oriented toward it. For in the blessed Eucharist is contained the whole spiritual good of the Church, namely Christ himself, our Pasch."137

1325 "The Eucharist is the efficacious sign and sublime cause of that communion in the divine life and that unity of the People of God by which the Church is kept in being. It is the culmination both of God’s action sanctifying the world in Christ and of the worship men offer to Christ and through him to the Father in the Holy Spirit."138

1326 Finally, by the Eucharistic celebration we already unite ourselves with the heavenly liturgy and anticipate eternal life, when God will be all in all.139

1327** In brief, the Eucharist is the sum and summary of our faith:** "Our way of thinking is attuned to the Eucharist, and the Eucharist in turn confirms our way of thinking."1

God is fully encountered in prayer and in sacraments or simmilar rituals* in a sufficient and saving** way.

*simmilar rituals would be like the Jewish Handwashing or Shabbat or wearing Tefflin or Muslim Wadhu (ritual purification).

I can grant you that each religion may have it’s own rituals or traditional way of prayer.
But I can never grant you the same comparison of the Sacraments (God divinely instituted for our humanity in order to be saved), to Jewish Handwashing, or a Muslim Wadhu ritual washing, which are never the same as a Sacrament in the Catholic Church.

I’m not sure how much God is encountered if you start just making stuff up,
**saving for me means not only eternal fate after death but also in an Eastern Orthodox sense of being freed from demonic forces and thoughts in the present. We saved each time we enter in prayer and we again become aware of God’s presence anew. It’s what you are referring to in the daily dying and rising with Christ.

Here is my response and summary to your respected above comment. All I know is that I cannot place my eternal salvation in man or men who can never save me into eternal life. Jesus is the only One in all of human history to promise me eternal life, before the foundation of the world and proved it; by dying and resurrecting His humanity and ascended His Human nature into eternal life.

Peace be with you

 

[Wannano]

All I know is that I cannot place my eternal salvation in man or men who can never save me into eternal life. Jesus is the only One in all of human history to promise me eternal life, before the foundation of the world and proved it; by dying and resurrecting His humanity and ascended His Human nature into eternal life.

Peace be with you

I have been following with interest. Your paragraph above is exactly how I feel. Is it possible for you to see how I as a non-Catholic might see it as an explanation as to why I am not drawn to Catholicism? I am not looking for arguement but just wondering if you might see the possibility of my perspective.

Peace.
.

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

I have been following with interest. Your paragraph above is exactly how I feel. Is it possible for you to see how I as a non-Catholic might see it as an explanation as to why I am not drawn to Catholicism? I am not looking for arguement but just wondering if you might see the possibility of my perspective.

Peace.
.

Greetings Wannano
Yes, I can see from a non-Catholic perspective as it is preached from non-Catholic pulpits, for one not to place one’s faith and salvation in man or men.

My first question to such a view is; Who started your faith religion? Was it Jesus Christ Himself or can you name your founder who implemented your Church or faith? I can almost guarantee, outside of the Catholic Church, no other Christian faith can trace it’s foundation of faith and practice directly to Jesus. If you trace your faith, you will find it’s founder to be from man or woman.

Back to your perspective of why you are not Catholic. I as a Catholic do not place my faith and salvation on man, but only on Jesus Christ teachings and commandments.

Jesus has NOT left us orphans. Jesus left us a Church, not a bible. Jesus left us a Shepherd and gave him the divine keys to bind and loose upon the whole earth, and promised to be with us until the end of the ages. Here I place my faith in Jesus not man because I follow Jesus today in His presence, which Jesus gave the power and authority to forgive sin and not only to bind and loose upon the whole earth, but to teach His divine teachings and revelations to His body the Church on earth. Jesus also commanded and sent His apostles to baptize ALL nations, Tribes, and tongues, until Jesus returns for His bride. Here again, I do not follow men, I follow Jesus.

My Catholic faith and practices have not changed since the resurrection of Jesus Christ. My Catholic faith is founded by Jesus Christ. A Catholic Christian since the resurrection professes that the Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you

 

[Wannano]

Greetings Wannano
Yes, I can see from a non-Catholic perspective as it is preached from non-Catholic pulpits, for one not to place one’s faith and salvation in man or men.

My first question to such a view is; Who started your faith religion? Was it Jesus Christ Himself or can you name your founder who implemented your Church or faith? I can almost guarantee, outside of the Catholic Church, no other Christian faith can trace it’s foundation of faith and practice directly to Jesus. If you trace your faith, you will find it’s founder to be from man or woman.

Back to your perspective of why you are not Catholic. I as a Catholic do not place my faith and salvation on man, but only on Jesus Christ teachings and commandments.

Jesus has NOT left us orphans. Jesus left us a Church, not a bible. Jesus left us a Shepherd and gave him the divine keys to bind and loose upon the whole earth, and promised to be with us until the end of the ages. Here I place my faith in Jesus not man because I follow Jesus today in His presence, which Jesus gave the power and authority to forgive sin and not only to bind and loose upon the whole earth, but to teach His divine teachings and revelations to His body the Church on earth. Jesus also commanded and sent His apostles to baptize ALL nations, Tribes, and tongues, until Jesus returns for His bride. Here again, I do not follow men, I follow Jesus.

My Catholic faith and practices have not changed since the resurrection of Jesus Christ. My Catholic faith is founded by Jesus Christ. A Catholic Christian since the resurrection professes that the Catholic Church is founded by Jesus Christ.

Peace be with you

Thanks. I notice you refer to your faith in your answer only as Catholic not Roman Catholic. Is there a difference in any way in your mind?

 

[Gabriel_of_12]

Thanks. I notice you refer to your faith in your answer only as Catholic not Roman Catholic. Is there a difference in any way in your mind?

Catholic includes all ancient rites since apostolic times which means universal, to which I include in my worship all those Catholics both in heaven and on earth and under the earth (Purgatory). In fact many of the Epistles in the bible are addressed to the Church Catholikos “universal” which includes all or the many as Jesus phrased it.

I practice my One Holy Catholic and Apostolic faith in the ancient Roman Rite handed down to us from Peter and his apostolic successors.

There are other ancient Liturgical apostolic rites practiced within the body of Christ the Catholic Church.

The Roman Rite is what I practice. My faith is Catholic which includes all those in heaven and on earth who witnessed the True and substantial real Presence of Jesus Christ in our Liturgical Apostolic Rites.

Peace be with you

 

[Autumn_Smoke]

Jesus was speaking to the Jewish leaders, as recorded in John chapter 5. He said many things to them, but the one that stands out to me is John 5:38-40: ‘‘You study the Scriptures diligently because you think that in them you have eternal life. These are the very Scriptures that testify about me.’’

We can look for mysticism in various Hebrew Scriptures, and we can diligently search out hidden meaning, in for example, the Hebrew Alef-Bet, but all of this still points to the one the scripture foretold: our Messiah Y’shua Jesus. And Jesus said that eternal life is found in Him, the Promised One.