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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
As do I
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iloveangels
Guest
No. They worked to get their new rules passed but they did not defy the authority of the Holy See. In fact, Italy in that time period was loaded with penitential groups teaching all kinds of rebellious things, saying bad things about the clergy, saying things about end-times and doing as they pleased. The reason the Franciscan orders ended up getting recognized and most of the others didnāt was because of both their complete faithfulness and their authenticity.
Francisā idea about what the emphasis of total fidelity should be was very different from the status quo but he was not disobedient, nor did he teach anything that isnāt in Scripture. In fact, much of what you see that he wrote is quite nearly paraphrased or quoted from Scripture.
Franciscans still are supposed to refrain from criticizing clergy and the Holy See. Itās part of the rule, I believe and certainly part of the charism. Franciscans, in addition, are expected to drop practices not approved of by the Church. That is part of the discernment at initial formation and also part of ongoing formation. [This last is also quite true of the other third orders, like the Carmelites and the Dominicans.]
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iloveangels
Guest
True.
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JReducation
Guest
Whoah!!!
Letās slow down here.
They neither argued with the popes nor defied them ever. In fact, Francisā Testament and that of St. Clare are the only statements made by any religious founder that command absolute and unquestioning obedience to popes and bishops. This is true to this day.
Francis and Clare expressed their concerns to the popes concerning their rules in the form of petitions. However, when they were told what to do and what not to do, they did as they were told.
For that reason, Francis wrote the Rule of the Friars Minor three times, until the pope was satisfied. Clare rewrote her rule, after Francis had written it for her and followed it with letters of petition, but she lived under the Benedictine Rule all of her life, because the pope did not approve the rule of the Poor Clares until two days before her death.
Francis and Clare not only dismissed people from their orders for arguing with popes and bishops, but Francis went as far as asking that they be excommunicated, even those who disagree with him.
For Francis and Clare, obedience to authority in all things was an absolute, even when authority was wrong. You are to obey even if you know that authority is mistaken. There is only one situation under which you may disobey, when authority commands you to sin.
However, you may never appeal to your conscience. Thatās not allowed in Franciscan tradition. Your conscience must conform to the mind of the Church. If your conscience says one thing and the Church or your superior say another, the fault lays with your conscience and you have a moral obligation to bring it into harmony with the Church. In other words, a rightly formed conscience is one that always agrees with the Church.
Francis and Clare did not tolerate anyone arguing with or defying authority.
The Lord says in the Gospel: he āthat doth not renounce all that he possesseth cannot beā a "disciple " 3 and āhe that will save his life, shall lose it.ā 4 That man leaves all he possesses and loses his body and his soul who abandons himself wholly to obedience in the hands of his superior, and whatever he does and saysāprovided he himself knows that what he does is good and not contrary to his [the superiorās] willāis true obedience. And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God, let him strive to fulfil the work enjoined by the superior. This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to oneās neighbor.
As you can see, there is nothing in Francisā mind and writings that suggests tolerance for argument or defiance.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Possibly it depends on what you mean by ādefy authority.ā I have no idea about the Holy See, but they definitely resisted the Popes will of what they should be. You left this link a while back:
Part of what he talks about is Francis saying ādonāt speak to me of other rulesā¦ā to the Pope in front of a large group of his brothers. And Clare writing to Agnes about resisting the Pope:
*Now concerning this, so that you may walk more tranquilly along the way of the Lordās commands, follow the advice of our venerable father, our Brother Elias, minister general. Prefer his advice to the advice of others and consider it more precious to you than any gift. Indeed, if someone tells you something else or suggests anything to you that may hinder your perfection and that seems contrary to your divine vocation, even though you must respect him, still, do not follow his advice; instead, poor virgin, embrace the Poor Christ.
*
According to Br Bill, she is being instructed to resist the Pope who wants to make these women like other cloistered religious, to settle lands and property on them to assure them an income. Just as they wanted to do to Francis. Both refused.
People who have nothing are hard to manipulate and control People who are alive and famous and much beloved are difficult to subvert or depose. I donāt perceive either one of them as having any particular loyalty to the Church as they knew it, but instead a great devotion to Jesus Christ. They wrote in code. Francis said it in his admonitions:* render unto Ceaser that which is Ceaserās*. The Church was Ceaser.
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iloveangels
Guest
No, thatās not what being a Franciscan is all about. This is not political in any way.
Francis simply had a different way to tell the same completely faithful and orthodox message of the Church and thatās why it was recognized at the highest levels as soon as it was understood. Til then Francis worked to make his message known, but never defied authority in the meantime. He was never defiant or refusing of papal authority. If he had been, he would have been wrong. Br. JR is 100% correct in what he says. I think you misunderstood the storytelling of Br. Bill Short.
This is not about the poor vs. the Church. Itās about Christ being present in all, even the poor, who as Christ himself said, āwe shall always have with us.ā
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iloveangels
Guest
Julia Mae,
You might find it helpful to read about the Waldensians by way of contrast. This was another group of mendicants, but they were excommunicated even though they were also proponents of the poor, but not in the way St. Francis was. They did defy the Church.
You might find it helpful to read about the Waldensians by way of contrast. This was another group of mendicants, but they were excommunicated even though they were also proponents of the poor, but not in the way St. Francis was. They did defy the Church.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Sure. If you didnāt you died.
Are you under the impression they had a choice? The second they died the Popes moved and their Rules were nullified as to the only thing they wanted: Holy Poverty.
Francis didnāt write a Rule for Clare as a far as I have ever read. He wrote this:
and he wrote this:
I imagine she took a lot of from things he did write and incorporated them, but Iād love a reference to any Rule Francis wrote for the women because Br Bill, as well as the other things Iāve read, says he didnāt.
There is very little that is an autograph type copy of something Francis wrote. Even the Regula Bullata isnāt in the original form. Most of these writings have chapter and verse citations in them which, as far as I can see, Francis couldnāt have included.
Obviously Francis loved the Eucharist and the all the churches and altars of the world places of worship and he venerated the persons of those who brought Christ to the people because they had been in this intimate contact with Christ. But he labored under no illusions about the evil men in high places did.
For Francis and Clare disobedience was death. Which is not to say they did not resist the will of Popes and encourage others to do so in whatever ways they could.
I see that you believe that. I read him and disagree.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
And by being very smart, Francis and Clare survived by avoiding open defiance. They still both spent their lives resisting the will of Popes and telling others to do so and trying to maintain the integrity of their calling against the interference of those Popes.
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iloveangels
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Julia Mae,
Iām not going to argue with you about things this important, and certainly not in an internet forum at that. But you really need to read and understand more about Franciscans before you start trying to tell some of them who they are and what they are about.
Iām not going to argue with you about things this important, and certainly not in an internet forum at that. But you really need to read and understand more about Franciscans before you start trying to tell some of them who they are and what they are about.
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Iām sorry you think I am doing that. This thread isnāt about Franciscans. And I would never tell anyone else what they are about, I donāt know why you thought I was, because that was certainly not my intent. I am interested in Francis. Maybe someday I will be interested in Franciscans, but right now Iām just about āFinding Saint Francis.ā All we have are his writings and the writings of those who knew him or have researched his life. And Clare, of course.
I donāt have a clue what modern Franciscans are about. I have a feeling they vary. The calling I have is to follow Francis. Iām just here trying to figure out who he is and how to do that.
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JReducation
Guest
Letās see if I can help a little here.
- The statement that you cite is what we call the Rule of St. Clare given to her by Francis. It was very short. The rule that Clare would later write is much more like that of the Friars Minor.
- Iām not sure how you get the idea that there are biblical citations in the rule that Francis did not put there. The first rule is nothing but biblical citations. The second and third rules are rescripts. Many of the citations were just carried over. The chapters were created by him. The only thing that Bonaventure added were the numbers to chapters and articles.
- I believe that youāre hearing Brotherās statements in his very colloquial 21st century American English. What he says and what he means are not the same thing. When he speaks about resisting, heās not speaking about being oppositional. A better word for it would be perseverance. They (Francis and Clare) persevered in asking the pope to hear them out. They never refused to do as they were told.
- You keep using the term ādeathā as if the pope were some kind of maniac who was out to kill anyone who disagreed with him. This was not the case at all. Francis and Clare had very warm relations with Popes Honorius and Gregory IX. Both were personal friends of theirs. This was also part of the freedom that they felt in expressing their concerns over and over again. Had the pope told them to shut up, they would have done so. Would they have liked it? Probably not. But that is the difference between the person who perseveres and the person who resists. The person who resists is manipulative and at time belligerent. That was not Francis and Clare. These folks were straight shooters. The relationship with Pope Innocent is a very short one, because he died early in the history of the order. Even he had a warm regard for Francis. He never met Clare.
- The letter to Agnes does not mention the pope, nor does it encourage her to rebel against the pope. In fact, shortly after that letter was written, Br. Elias was excommunicated and he died in disgrace. He did die within the Church again, but not in the order. He was excommunicated for disagreeing with Francis. Clare was part of that group who called for his excommunication. She held him in esteem as long as he complied with what Francis commanded.
- In his Testament, Francis speaks loudly and clearly about his obedience to the pope and that of the brothers, which also included the nuns and the seculars. Fratelli, in Italilan means both genders.
- The relationship that Francis and Clare had with the popes was a very loving relationship, not a conflictive one. Clare did obey him until her death. Her rule was approved two days before she died. She lived under the Rule of Benedict, which was imposed by Pope Gregory IX. She did not undermine him or try to sabotage him. She simply kept bugging him and finally Pope Alexander IV approved her rule.
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Yes, I think we might assume she got copies of Rules he did write and certainly was influenced by them. She seems to have had and used his Office of the Passion, so why wouldnāt she have other writings, also?
They are quotes or paraphrases from the Vulgate. Almost everything he wrote is full of passages from Scripture.
Iām talking about the citations, like (Matt 22:4) or such. He couldnāt have written them. Langton didnāt divide the Bible by chapters until 1227, and there wasnāt a printed Bible with those chapters until the 1230s. Francis has passed by then. It was even later that Stephanus put into it standard numbered verses like a couple centuries later.
Whoever inserted the standard citations was a long after he dies. So, unless there is something someplace Iām not finding, but would love to, there are few autographs and or even reliable copies of autographs of his more major work. What there may be that I have not yet found are the āGospels of Saint Francisā so to speak, the accounts of his life, words and so forth from eyewitnesses other than Thomas of Celano. I probably just havenāt found then yet because I donāt have access to a decent library.
Whatās really interesting to me, is when you go through the Fragments, you get those without any Scripture citations at all, even though they contain obvious Scripture references and you get others that have them. This is indicative of later editing of an earlier Rule that was, itself, actually post-Francisā lifetime.
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JReducation
Guest
I think I know what youāre saying. Let me see if I have this right. Youāre talking about the numerical references, not the actual quotes.
The actual quotes from the bible were put in by Francis. The numerical references were put in by Bonaventure. Francis actually inserted the quotes into his own sentences. For example, he would write something like, āThe Lord told me to ātake up my cross and follow himā.ā It was not even that well punctuated.
The biblical citation is written by Francis. The numerical reference was added by Bonaventure, for the sake of clarify.
There is one copy of the third rule, but lay people are not allowed to see it. It is actually signed by Francis. Itās the only copy of his signature available. Itās in the archives in Assisi. Only scholars are allowed to work with it, because of itās delicate state. Friars are show when they pass through there.
We can tell that he did not write it, because the Latin is impeccable and the penmanship between the text and the signature are different. It is assumed that Francis dictated it to Leo and then he signed it. It is the rule that has the Bull of Honorius. Francis wrote impeccable French and Italian, but not Latin.
There is a wonderful book that contains his writings called The Complete Works of Francis and Clare by Armstrong.
There is another book by St. Bonaventure called Such Is The Power of Love, in which Bonaventure writes based on the testimonies of the eye witnesses who were still alive when he was General Minister. There is another book written by Bonaventure on the anatomy of the soul of St. Francis called the Itinerarium, which he also uses eye witnesses as his sources.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
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Julia_Mae
Guest
Right right, thatās what I meant. I know that he extensively quoted from Scripture in his writing and I imagine in his preaching.
Right, and sometimes he was too sick to write. But he still read Latin fluently enough that I think if he signed something, we can consider it an āautographā since that really means the original.
Iām going to look for that one, it would be nice to just have all the works and know they are all the works in one place. Iāll have to check around, thanks for the reference.
Yes, Bonaventure is next, after which is Anthony, I believe. Bonaventure might be online someplace. I also need a good, not sanitized, history of the Franciscans in the first 3-4 centuries, if you can recommend one. Right now Iām trying to confirm that Caesar of Speyer was killed by another friar and Bernard de Quintavalle was hunted down by Order members in the March of Ancona. I need better sources.
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Marauder
Guest
I created the Franciscan Spirituality social group a long time ago. At first I created it as a SFO group, but by the end of the day I figured limiting it to SFO only was a mistake and opened it up to all our brothers and sisters interested in the Franciscan charism. Feel free to post, ask questions or answer questions in that group. Sometimes it is very active other times it can be pretty quiet.
Someone else later created the SFO specific group but it hasnāt been very active. The creator of that group hasnāt been active since 2009 so in effect it doesnāt have a moderator anymore (except for Catholic Answers own moderators.)
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Luigi_Daniele
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Perfect explanation:thumbsup:
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
Perfect, sir. (Although sometimes forgotten by their spiritual sons and daughters, unfortunatelyāreferring to the part that I bolded in your post)
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Luigi_Daniele
Guest
A tiny correction: fratelli means brothers. Sorelle is sisters. In Francisās time, a group of men and woman would almost certainly have been addressed āfratelliā, though. Nowadays, it would almost certainly be āfratelli e sorelleā
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JReducation
Guest
I know that, but in the Latin languages, we used the masculine when we wanted to include both. In Latin we used Fratres (Brothers).A tiny correction: fratelli means brothers. Sorelle is sisters. In Francisās time, a group of men and woman would almost certainly have been addressed āfratelliā, though. Nowadays, it would almost certainly be āfratelli e sorelleā
Today, we use bros and sis.
Fraternally,
Br. JR, OSF :christmastree1:
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