Finding Saint Francis

[Faithdancer]

Do they accept “long distance” “SFO’s” (as the Third Order used to)? Do you have a link to them, please?

Dear Luigi Daniele, You might check out this website for the Franciscans of San Damiano. A third order regular congregation of men, with living in community optional. I am in Postulancy. The home diocese is Albany, NY but the brothers live about the country (though most are in the eastern US). There are two active priest/ brothers, and several deacons who belong to this still small and relatively new congregation.
www.fsdbrothers.org Brother Giles and Brother Sean are in charge of Vocations.

You are in my prayers Brother, in your discernment!

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

Dear Luigi Daniele, You might check out this website for the Franciscans of San Damiano. A third order regular congregation of men, with living in community optional. I am in Postulancy. The home diocese is Albany, NY but the brothers live about the country (though most are in the eastern US). There are two active priest/ brothers, and several deacons who belong to this still small and relatively new congregation.
www.fsdbrothers.org Brother Giles and Brother Sean are in charge of Vocations.

You are in my prayers Brother, in your discernment!

I truly appreciate the prayers Brother
I have sorted out things with the SFO (with Br JReduction’s invaluable help)
I have prayed for you on your journey

 

[JReducation]

Dear Luigi Daniele, You might check out this website for the Franciscans of San Damiano. A third order regular congregation of men, with living in community optional. I am in Postulancy. The home diocese is Albany, NY but the brothers live about the country (though most are in the eastern US). There are two active priest/ brothers, and several deacons who belong to this still small and relatively new congregation.
www.fsdbrothers.org Brother Giles and Brother Sean are in charge of Vocations.

You are in my prayers Brother, in your discernment!

Are they approved yet? They sound very interesting.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[iloveangels]

Are they approved yet? They sound very interesting.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

A hybrid form of the 2 major branches of the third order. Are they regular or secular? Now that’s interesting.

 

[iloveangels]

A hybrid form of the 2 major branches of the third order. Are they regular or secular? Now that’s interesting.

On the one hand, the links point to sites that indicate third order regular aspirations and they wear a habit on the website at least; on the other hand the brothers don’t live in community, they are each self-supporting according to their website and they may be married. Interesting. I, too, wonder if they have been approved.

 

[iloveangels]

On the one hand, the links point to sites that indicate third order regular aspirations and they wear a habit on the website at least; on the other hand the brothers don’t live in community, they are each self-supporting according to their website and they may be married. Interesting. I, too, wonder if they have been approved.

Looking around the internet, it doesn’t look as though they have approval from their home diocese, which is Albany, as late as May, 2011. There’s also an offshoot of this group called the Penitent Brothers of St. Francis, but they’re not approved by the diocese either.
Both groups seem to be having a little trouble defining themselves.

 

[JReducation]

It takes time to get approved and it’s a long process.

You have to define your mission and charism very clearly.

You have to prove that you can sustain yourself.

You have to show that you bring something new to the local Church.

You have to prove that you’re in full communion with Vatican II, CCC, the Holy Father.

Your recruitment and formation policies and programs must pass the scrutiny of canon lawyers.

The local bishop must sent a report to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life and wait for them to give their blessing.

Then you go through the stages.

Public Association of the Faithful

Diocesan Congregation

Institute of Pontifical Right

Each stage can take decades or even centuries. The Sisters of St. Joseph are still Diocesan Congregations. Each is governed by a bishop.

The Franciscans of EWTN are still a Public Association of the Faithful, after 20 years.

In the meantime, you have to keep getting vocations or the local bishop can suppress you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[iloveangels]

It takes time to get approved and it’s a long process.

You have to define your mission and charism very clearly.

You have to prove that you can sustain yourself.

You have to show that you bring something new to the local Church.

You have to prove that you’re in full communion with Vatican II, CCC, the Holy Father.

Your recruitment and formation policies and programs must pass the scrutiny of canon lawyers.

The local bishop must sent a report to the Sacred Congregation for Institutes of Consecrated Life and Societies of Apostolic Life and wait for them to give their blessing.

Then you go through the stages.

Public Association of the Faithful

Diocesan Congregation

Institute of Pontifical Right

Each stage can take decades or even centuries. The Sisters of St. Joseph are still Diocesan Congregations. Each is governed by a bishop.

The Franciscans of EWTN are still a Public Association of the Faithful, after 20 years.

In the meantime, you have to keep getting vocations or the local bishop can suppress you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Yes, I know. I looked into all this once upon a time. This is what happened with the BSP/Confraternity of Penitents groups. I’ve seen it working with other groups too, like that group of Carmelites in Wyoming. It’s kind of interesting how these things work. And it’s also something that a lot of Catholics are not aware of in a juridical sense. Although, I’m pretty sure a lot of them are aware that there are new groups forming, being re-founded and dissolving occasionally, ie. Regnum Christi, Neocatechumenate and so on.

For a short period, I traveled and communicated with Miles Jesu, a group out of Arizona. They are being re-founded now because of some troubles they had. I believe that they had gotten pretty far up the ladder, because they attracted the attention of the Congregation in Rome and were ordered to re-found or disband.

Between Miles Jesu (who I traveled with), Regnum Christi (to which some of my friends belong) and the SFO (to which I belong) is how I became aware of all this. And somewhat cautious.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, I know. I looked into all this once upon a time. … And somewhat cautious.

We also had one member of the SFO here locally who got involved with the Lay Franciscans of Adoration in Pennsylvania, which now seems to be defunct. But this person left the SFO over it.

By the way, I really do mean just “cautious.” Not negative, but careful. Things are not always as they seem.

 

[iloveangels]

Yes, I know. I looked into all this once upon a time. This is what happened with the BSP/Confraternity of Penitents groups. I’ve seen it working with other groups too, like that group of Carmelites in Wyoming. It’s kind of interesting how these things work. And it’s also something that a lot of Catholics are not aware of in a juridical sense. Although, I’m pretty sure a lot of them are aware that there are new groups forming, being re-founded and dissolving occasionally, ie. Regnum Christi, Neocatechumenate and so on.

For a short period, I traveled and communicated with Miles Jesu, a group out of Arizona. They are being re-founded now because of some troubles they had. I believe that they had gotten pretty far up the ladder, because they attracted the attention of the Congregation in Rome and were ordered to re-found or disband. I never joined them or did formation with them. They were good traveling partners.

Between Miles Jesu (who I traveled with), Regnum Christi (to which some of my friends belong) and the SFO (to which I belong) is how I became aware of all this. And somewhat cautious.

 

[JReducation]

The Church does not discourage people from founding new communities. She insists that the founders proceed very cautiously. That’s why she goes through these stages.

The SFO is not in the same league. It never went through these stages. I was approved as an Order of Pontifical Right from day one. The SFO had two advantages.

1. It was inspired by a revelation that Francis of Assisi had.
2. Pope Honorius was a personal friend of Francis. He had been Cardinal Hugolino, the Cardinal Protector of the order. If Francis said that Jesus told him to do this, Pope Honorius did not question it. He knew better.

Today, unless you have that kind of infused knowledge that people like Francis had and a pope who trusts that you’re the real thing, you have to go through the steps and you must do so very carefully so as not to lose your way. By you, I mean the founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[iloveangels]

The Church does not discourage people from founding new communities. She insists that the founders proceed very cautiously. That’s why she goes through these stages.

The SFO is not in the same league. It never went through these stages. I was approved as an Order of Pontifical Right from day one. The SFO had two advantages.

1. It was inspired by a revelation that Francis of Assisi had.
2. Pope Honorius was a personal friend of Francis. He had been Cardinal Hugolino, the Cardinal Protector of the order. If Francis said that Jesus told him to do this, Pope Honorius did not question it. He knew better.

Today, unless you have that kind of infused knowledge that people like Francis had and a pope who trusts that you’re the real thing, you have to go through the steps and you must do so very carefully so as not to lose your way. By you, I mean the founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

I know. The history of St. Francis’s Brother and Sisters of Penance, now called the SFO, is impeccable. It’s rock solid. It’s had the highest level of canonical approval for centuries, even though at times it’s been eclipsed a bit by its offshoots, the regulars, no offense to the regulars. Laypeople haven’t been taken particularly seriously at times → an understatement. LOL. [This is probably why the SFO looks the way it does at the current time. Not an apology, but true. It needs work to bring it up to what it ought to be after many years of practical neglect. I think that’s what I’m seeing but it looks clumsy, to be honest.]

But there’s nothing wrong at all with founding new movements either. That’s how everything begins because human society keeps changing in form and appearance, if not in truths. I understand that, too. There’s a time and a place for all of the forms that further the Church’s ministry on earth. I’m sure you understand this because of your apostolate with pregnant women and families. What you see right now is a very modern need - technologies & attitudes exist that didn’t exist before, creating new capabilities but also new problems.

I’ve spent some time examining different groups, how their charisms come about, and understanding the approval process. This is how I came across some of these groups mentioned above. I’ve seen some more successful and some less successful ones. I’ve seen at least one group execute some interesting sideways maneuvers. LOL

I did wonder about the process of forming one at one time, and decided against it.

I’ve also spent some time reading to understand Franciscan history, particularly from the third order perspective. I’m still learning about that.

The tricky part for Catholics who don’t have much experience is trying to tell the difference between what might simply be a) a de facto type organization, which anyone can start in their living room for any reason whatever, from b) a public association of the faithful which has some kind of recognition if not formal approval from the bishop’s office and some stability…Which brings us back to the recent discussions in this thread…

 

[iloveangels]

I know. The history of St. Francis’s Brother and Sisters of Penance, now called the SFO, is impeccable. It’s rock solid. It’s had the highest level of canonical approval for centuries, even though at times it’s been eclipsed a bit by its offshoots, the regulars, no offense to the regulars. Laypeople haven’t been taken particularly seriously at times → an understatement. LOL. [This is probably why the SFO looks the way it does at the current time. Not an apology, but true. It needs work to bring it up to what it ought to be after many years of practical neglect. I think that’s what I’m seeing but it looks clumsy, to be honest.]

But there’s nothing wrong at all with founding new movements either. That’s how everything begins because human society keeps changing in form and appearance, if not in truths. I understand that, too. There’s a time and a place for all of the forms that further the Church’s ministry on earth. I’m sure you understand this because of your apostolate with pregnant women and families. What you see right now is a very modern need - technologies & attitudes exist that didn’t exist before, creating new capabilities but also new problems.

I’ve spent some time examining different groups, how their charisms come about, and understanding the approval process. This is how I came across some of these groups mentioned above. I’ve seen some more successful and some less successful ones. I’ve seen at least one group execute some interesting sideways maneuvers. LOL

I did wonder about the process of forming one at one time, and decided against it.

I’ve also spent some time reading to understand Franciscan history, particularly from the third order perspective. I’m still learning about that.

The tricky part for Catholics who don’t have much experience is trying to tell the difference between what might simply be a) a de facto type organization, which anyone can start in their living room for any reason whatever, from b) a public association of the faithful which has some kind of recognition if not formal approval from the bishop’s office and some stability…Which brings us back to the recent discussions in this thread…

There is a place open for a good self-less order to be founded around the Benedictine rule with a charism for working with a new development in modern society – the forgotten, and the left-behind that no-one wants to fool with, particularly those who can’t get out by themselves to go to church, and to whom the church must be brought. These are the long-term mentally ill, the aged, the bed-ridden, those with serious birth defects and disabling syndromes, those who have terminal cancer and are alone.

Solidly Catholic, and in complete union with parishes and diocese, they should work as an extension of the church to the degree they are able. Members would have to be catholic, but associates could be anybody because God loves everybody. The association would be “secular,” meaning composed of laypeople or secular priests or deacons of the diocese.

There are many people lonely in nursing homes, private houses and hospices who are forgotten. I remember the lady who lived next door to me with lupus, all alone years ago as a good example; the lady I know with a spinal defect who’s bed-ridden at home and to this day can’t get up. It needs to be done. There is nothing out there like this in this part of the country. It also does people a great deal of good to stop arguing and work together, arm in arm.

I’m just not the one to do this. Some else will have to do it. I’m too old and I don’t think I have the ability to do it.

 

[JReducation]

There is a place open for a good self-less order to be founded around the Benedictine rule with a charism for working with a new development in modern society – the forgotten, and the left-behind that no-one wants to fool with, particularly those who can’t get out by themselves to go to church, and to whom the church must be brought. These are the long-term mentally ill, the aged, the bed-ridden, those with serious birth defects and disabling syndromes, those who have terminal cancer and are alone.

Solidly Catholic, and in complete union with parishes and diocese, they should work as an extension of the church to the degree they are able. Members would have to be catholic, but associates could be anybody because God loves everybody. The association would be “secular,” meaning composed of laypeople or secular priests or deacons of the diocese.

There are many people lonely in nursing homes, private houses and hospices who are forgotten. I remember the lady who lived next door to me with lupus, all alone years ago as a good example; the lady I know with a spinal defect who’s bed-ridden at home and to this day can’t get up. It needs to be done. There is nothing out there like this in this part of the country. It also does people a great deal of good to stop arguing and work together, arm in arm.

I’m just not the one to do this. Some else will have to do it. I’m too old and I don’t think I have the ability to do it.

I’m not so sure that this description fits the Benedictine vision.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[iloveangels]

I’m not so sure that this description fits the Benedictine vision.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Maybe. But centuries ago, they did offer refuge for the long-term ill and infirm. And their charism is liturgical, but not only liturgical. Many of these people who would not only be the people the group helped but some of its members (!) who have long term permanence right where they are. In bed or near it. At home or in hospital or nursing home. Promise of stability and learning to live with it, right there. You know, this wouldn’t be for me, but for them. Members would be on both sides of the action, so to speak.

The Franciscan third order’s (both TOS & TOR) twin interests (for lack of a better word) are penance and works of mercy.

Penance meaning amending your life and turning to God (in the original meaning), and works of mercy, being something like these. So maybe they could be put into the SFO charism in a way.

The Benedictine rule is a bit like the Augustinian rule in that it gets used by several different groups too, if I’m not mistaken.

 

[JReducation]

Maybe. But centuries ago, they did offer refuge for the long-term ill and infirm. And their charism is liturgical, but not only liturgical. Many of these people who would not only be the people the group helped but some of its members (!) who have long term permanence right where they are. In bed or near it. At home or in hospital or nursing home. Promise of stability and learning to live with it, right there. You know, this wouldn’t be for me, but for them.

The Franciscan third order’s (both TOS & TOR) twin interests (for lack of a better word) are penance and works of mercy.

Penance meaning amending your life and turning to God (in the original meaning), and works of mercy, being something like these. So maybe they could be put into the SFO charism in a way.

The Benedictine rule is a bit like the Augustinian rule in that it gets used by several different groups too, if I’m not mistaken.

St. Benedict’s thing was that the monks did not go out to find those in need or to serve those in need. They came to the abbey. The abbey was a place where the poor were always welcome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[iloveangels]

St. Benedict’s thing was that the monks did not go out to find those in need or to serve those in need. They came to the abbey. The abbey was a place where the poor were always welcome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

You’re right. That’s true. The Benedictines, all of them, are bound to a monastery or religious house. Even the Oblates are bound to that house. Even though they travel back and forth from their homes, their attention is there.

Sorry for thinking out loud. I shouldn’t have. LOL.

This is more of a Franciscan thing, maybe. Works of mercy. Franciscans go where they are. (With the exception of Poor Clares, but they’re out of this conversation.)

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

The Franciscans of EWTN are still a Public Association of the Faithful, after 20 years.

In the meantime, you have to keep getting vocations or the local bishop can suppress you.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

1st: thank you for the explanation, fratello.

2nd: The EWTN Francicans (friars, I presume) then belong to their original communities (Capuchin, OFM, etc) right? As soon as they become approved, they will leave their forumer Franciscans (Capuchin, OFM, etc) and enter a new order (ala the Franciscan Frairs of the Renewal)? Or am I completely mixed up?

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

St. Benedict’s thing was that the monks did not go out to find those in need or to serve those in need. They came to the abbey. The abbey was a place where the poor were always welcome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

True. With the exception of the Olivetan Benedictines, who do indeed travel (extensively) outside the monastery

 

[JReducation]

1st: thank you for the explanation, fratello.

2nd: The EWTN Francicans (friars, I presume) then belong to their original communities (Capuchin, OFM, etc) right? As soon as they become approved, they will leave their forumer Franciscans (Capuchin, OFM, etc) and enter a new order (ala the Franciscan Frairs of the Renewal)? Or am I completely mixed up?

They are autonomous. The Franciscans of the Renewal are also still a Public Association of the Faithful.

These men are religious in every sense of the word, but their communities have not met all of the requirements to achieve a permanent status in the Church. They have to reach certain goals to move to the next step.

Some communities do not want to move to the next step. There are benefits to being an Association of the Faithful instead of a congregation. One of them is leaving. The local bishop can grant the dispensation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF