Finding Saint Francis

[iloveangels]

True. With the exception of the Olivetan Benedictines, who do indeed travel (extensively) outside the monastery

Actually I don’t know very much about the Benedictines. The only Benedictine monastery we have around here where I could spend any time is Episcopalian. LOL. Not much reason to go there on a weekend.

I did visit a few Benedictine monasteries in Spain a couple of years ago. But that’s all. I do know the Benedictine Rule is often read. Not sure how many groups use it or a derivative of it.

 

[iloveangels]

They are autonomous. The Franciscans of the Renewal are also still a Public Association of the Faithful.

These men are religious in every sense of the word, but their communities have not met all of the requirements to achieve a permanent status in the Church. They have to reach certain goals to move to the next step.

Some communities do not want to move to the next step. There are benefits to being an Association of the Faithful instead of a congregation. One of them is leaving. The local bishop can grant the dispensation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I had to think about that for a moment. You mean that in the case of a person who wants to leave the association, it would be easy. Not necessary to petition the universal Church and all that. Correct?

We have a small group in my diocese who are picking the whole thing up and moving to another diocese for some reason. That was the first thing I thought when I read “leaving.” I guess that’s what’s in the back of my head. LOL. And no, I don’t belong to that one either…

 

[iloveangels]

I had to think about that for a moment. You mean that in the case of a person who wants to leave the association, it would be easy. Not necessary to petition the universal Church and all that. Correct?

We have a small group in my diocese who are picking the whole thing up and moving to another diocese for some reason. That was the first thing I thought when I read “leaving.” I guess that’s what’s in the back of my head. LOL. And no, I don’t belong to that one either…

But they could be suppressed by the bishop too, right? Unlike the SFO or the OFMs etc. who are an order.

The SFO must have come into this diocese a long time ago. I wonder if the current bishop even knows we’re here…LOL. There aren’t very many members here. However, we’re listed in our region of the SFO since 1978, and so we must have our paperwork figured out. I’ve just never seen it.

 

[Luigi_Daniele]

They are autonomous. The Franciscans of the Renewal are also still a Public Association of the Faithful.

These men are religious in every sense of the word, but their communities have not met all of the requirements to achieve a permanent status in the Church. They have to reach certain goals to move to the next step.

Some communities do not want to move to the next step. There are benefits to being an Association of the Faithful instead of a congregation. One of them is leaving. The local bishop can grant the dispensation.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Grazie!

 

[iloveangels]

BR JR,

Thank you for your patience in answering our questions. I really appreciate it. You’ve helped me sort out a lot of things.

 

[JReducation]

But they could be suppressed by the bishop too, right? Unlike the SFO or the OFMs etc. who are an order.

The SFO must have come into this diocese a long time ago. I wonder if the current bishop even knows we’re here…LOL. There aren’t very many members here. However, we’re listed in our region of the SFO since 1978, and so we must have our paperwork figured out. I’ve just never seen it.

They can only be suppressed by the bishop who is the major superior.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[iloveangels]

The Church does not discourage people from founding new communities. She insists that the founders proceed very cautiously. That’s why she goes through these stages.

The SFO is not in the same league. It never went through these stages. I was approved as an Order of Pontifical Right from day one. The SFO had two advantages.

1. It was inspired by a revelation that Francis of Assisi had.
2. Pope Honorius was a personal friend of Francis. He had been Cardinal Hugolino, the Cardinal Protector of the order. If Francis said that Jesus told him to do this, Pope Honorius did not question it. He knew better.

Today, unless you have that kind of infused knowledge that people like Francis had and a pope who trusts that you’re the real thing, you have to go through the steps and you must do so very carefully so as not to lose your way. By you, I mean the founders.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Br JR,

I haven’t changed by mind about the SFO.

What you’re hearing is the aftermath of my having to find these things out the hard way because so little information was available to me at the time. I’ve got a better picture of what this is all about, ie what the order is about and what Franciscanism is now, and I’m still learning. It’s all good.

What I got early on was pretty vague, and I’m kind of analytical…LOL…I don’t “get” vague very well. So I had to beat my head on the wall a few times.

 

[JReducation]

Br JR,

I haven’t changed by mind about the SFO.

What you’re hearing is the aftermath of my having to find these things out the hard way because so little information was available to me at the time. I’ve got a better picture of what this is all about, ie what the order is about and what Franciscanism is now, and I’m still learning. It’s all good.

What I got early on was pretty vague, and I’m kind of analytical…LOL…I don’t “get” vague very well. So I had to beat my head on the wall a few times.

I’m a firm believer that part of finding Francis and living the Gospel as Francis lived it requires that one learn to live with uncertainty and ambiguity. Uncertainty and ambiguity require that one become poor. One has to let go and trust God and man.

I have always said that the greatest treasure to which we hang on to is not money. It’s our need for control. Uncertainty and ambiguity force us to live without controlling everything around us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

 

[Faithdancer]

Brother JR,

I gather that FSD is somewhere along the path to full approval, which you outlined in one of your other posts. The congregation is currently in that “public association of the faithful” category you have mentioned. I’m still learning the ropes (no pun intended) but I understand that FSD was founded by several brothers who were living in community, and decided collectively that they could be of more service “in the world.” FSD is comprised of men only; if a man is married and his wife passes away before he does, he must remain a celibate single man thereafter (just as in the Diaconate). Like any relatively new organization (very new, by Franciscan TOR standards!) FSD has gone through some fits and starts. But it seems to me that the congregation is on the right track. FSD was just approved for associate membership in IFC-TOR. This is a step toward full membership, and the application required support of the Bishop of the Albany Diocese. The Guardian, Father Vince Inghilterra, is on the staff at Franciscan University of Steubenville; I believe he is one of the assistant chaplains and also works with the priestly formation team. He is leading a group of Steubenville students on a winter break mission to Jamaica at the moment, I just watched their video which I found inspiring: youtube.com/watch?v=6GIOqs2uzKQ

I chose FSD because first, I’m over 50 and this is a barrier for most TOR groups, regardless of the facts that I hold one advanced degree (Exercise Science) and am working on a second (Theology), and hold advanced certifications in strength and conditioning coaching (CSCS) and personal training (PES and NSCA-CPT), which I think can be of benefit to brothers in any congregation, since many are collectively older (even if they have an age 40 cutoff) and prone to being sedentary. Personally, I also wanted to make the level of commitment that the Third Order Regular Rule entails, so that affected my decision. I was also attracted by the erudition I found among the brothers, many of whom hold advanced degrees and some of whom have taught at universities and colleges. Finally, my charism is dance and theater; pretty difficult to fulfill or find support for when one is living in community, particularly a contemplative community- should one even exist that accepts men over 50. I choreograph in Hollywood, California, which is ripe for evangelization, if anyplace on Earth is!

I looked at the OP path but I absolutely love everything Franciscan. I recently completed a distance learning course titled The Spirituality of St. Francis offered by the Paul VI Institute in St. Louis and taught by Father Damien Dougherty. I’m also considering taking the British Franciscans graduate course through Holy Apostles, if I can squeeze it in this coming term.

I don’t know that anyone living can truly know what our Blessed Seraphic Father might think of friars living in the world, staying connected in their daily prayer, sharing their work largely via the Internet, only coming into full community for semi-annual retreats. Things are vastly different now, it seems, then they were in 13th century Umbria. Personally, I like to think that St. Francis would wholeheartedly support the concept of “Friars of the New Millenium” if it furthers the apostolic work of the Church and evangelizes for Jesus Christ by maximizing the ability of the members to fulfill their God given charisms. But I’m just funny that way!

All that being said, perhaps it’s time for a new congregation, the Holy Order of Performing Artists! What better way to reach out to the millions of Catholics in Southern California and beyond, than through an apostolate of dance, theater, and music?

 

[JReducation]

Brother JR,

I gather that FSD is somewhere along the path to full approval, which you outlined in one of your other posts. The congregation is currently in that “public association of the faithful” category you have mentioned. I’m still learning the ropes (no pun intended) but I understand that FSD was founded by several brothers who were living in community, and decided collectively that they could be of more service “in the world.” FSD is comprised of men only; if a man is married and his wife passes away before he does, he must remain a celibate single man thereafter (just as in the Diaconate). Like any relatively new organization (very new, by Franciscan TOR standards!) FSD has gone through some fits and starts. But it seems to me that the congregation is on the right track. FSD was just approved for associate membership in IFC-TOR. This is a step toward full membership, and the application required support of the Bishop of the Albany Diocese. The Guardian, Father Vince Inghilterra, is on the staff at Franciscan University of Steubenville; I believe he is one of the assistant chaplains and also works with the priestly formation team. He is leading a group of Steubenville students on a winter break mission to Jamaica at the moment, I just watched their video which I found inspiring: youtube.com/watch?v=6GIOqs2uzKQ

I chose FSD because first, I’m over 50 and this is a barrier for most TOR groups, regardless of the facts that I hold one advanced degree (Exercise Science) and am working on a second (Theology), and hold advanced certifications in strength and conditioning coaching (CSCS) and personal training (PES and NSCA-CPT), which I think can be of benefit to brothers in any congregation, since many are collectively older (even if they have an age 40 cutoff) and prone to being sedentary. Personally, I also wanted to make the level of commitment that the Third Order Regular Rule entails, so that affected my decision. I was also attracted by the erudition I found among the brothers, many of whom hold advanced degrees and some of whom have taught at universities and colleges. Finally, my charism is dance and theater; pretty difficult to fulfill or find support for when one is living in community, particularly a contemplative community- should one even exist that accepts men over 50. I choreograph in Hollywood, California, which is ripe for evangelization, if anyplace on Earth is!

I looked at the OP path but I absolutely love everything Franciscan. I recently completed a distance learning course titled The Spirituality of St. Francis offered by the Paul VI Institute in St. Louis and taught by Father Damien Dougherty. I’m also considering taking the British Franciscans graduate course through Holy Apostles, if I can squeeze it in this coming term.

I don’t know that anyone living can truly know what our Blessed Seraphic Father might think of friars living in the world, staying connected in their daily prayer, sharing their work largely via the Internet, only coming into full community for semi-annual retreats. Things are vastly different now, it seems, then they were in 13th century Umbria. Personally, I like to think that St. Francis would wholeheartedly support the concept of “Friars of the New Millenium” if it furthers the apostolic work of the Church and evangelizes for Jesus Christ by maximizing the ability of the members to fulfill their God given charisms. But I’m just funny that way!

All that being said, perhaps it’s time for a new congregation, the Holy Order of Performing Artists! What better way to reach out to the millions of Catholics in Southern California and beyond, than through an apostolate of dance, theater, and music?

Interesting concept, but one thing concerns me. Where is the fraternal life? For Francis, fraternity came before ministry. He was not overly concerned with the friars apostolic endeavors. He was very concerned with their fraternal life. I can see living independently. The SFO has done that for 800 years. But they operate out of a fraternal model with meetings, activities and even common apostolic work.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Faithdancer]

I understand what you are saying Brother JR. For most of the FSD Brothers it isn’t a problem, as they live within the “Northeast Corridor,” if that’s the right term- the Eastern region, in other words. And they do get together more regularly. I’m the odd Brother out, being in the LA region. The closest other brother is in the SF Bay Area, which is 7 hours away by car! However, I think I can be the “point man” for new vocations in Southern California, and have offered myself as such, lowly Postulant that I am. I think that with the 7 million plus Catholics in this area, a community of brothers could certainly be developed, and if this is meant to be part of my contribution, I’ll do everything I can.

Back to the point- what would Francis think of the near-instantaneous communication made possible by the Internet? In 1200 AD, instantaneous communication was only possible face-to-face. Anything else was a snail mail by donkey or horse, if that. What is the definition of “fraternity” in the age of the Internet? Is there such a thing as “virtual fraternity,” and if so, is it necessarily inferior? Can a viable and effective fraternity be formed via a blend of face to face and virtual connection? I’m just asking the questions, for which I don’t pretend to have any particular “right or wrong” answers. I certainly can’t speak for St. Francis on these questions.

 

[JReducation]

I understand what you are saying Brother JR. For most of the FSD Brothers it isn’t a problem, as they live within the “Northeast Corridor,” if that’s the right term- the Eastern region, in other words. And they do get together more regularly. I’m the odd Brother out, being in the LA region. The closest other brother is in the SF Bay Area, which is 7 hours away by car! However, I think I can be the “point man” for new vocations in Southern California, and have offered myself as such, lowly Postulant that I am. I think that with the 7 million plus Catholics in this area, a community of brothers could certainly be developed, and if this is meant to be part of my contribution, I’ll do everything I can.

I’m not sure where my MA Theology program will take me, otherwise. I’ve been encouraged to strive for the priesthood, even by Diocesan employees, though there aren’t a lot of options for someone over 50. I know that I have this strong dance charism but where else God wants me remains to be seen, I guess.

Back to the point- what would Francis think of the near-instantaneous communication made possible by the Internet? In 1200 AD, instantaneous communication was only possible face-to-face. Anything else was a snail mail. So again, who can speak for St. Francis on this question? What is the definition of “fraternity” in the age of the Internet? Is there such a thing as “virtual fraternity,” and if so, is it necessarily inferior? I’m just asking the questions, for which I don’t think there are any particular “right or wrong” answers.

Actually, Canon Law defines fraternity as living in a common house, with a common life of prayer, work, study, apostolic activity and interaction, if you’re a religious community.

There is an expectation for religious. The only religious who are exempt from this are the Jesuits.

Secular orders are also exempt from common life, but not from live contact. For that reason they have monthly meetings, ongoing formation activities together, retreats by regions, and even common apostolates.

What you’re describing sounds more like a secular order than a religious congregation. Which is fine. There is certainly nothing wrong with secular orders. They’re awesome.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Faithdancer]

You certainly have far greater depth of knowledge than I, Brother JR, in canon law as it applies to the correct labeling of religious communities. However, since the greater Los Angeles area is rather underrepresented in the number of Franciscan congregations living in community, with respect to the East Coast and to Europe, perhaps my contribution to FSD will include working toward the establishment of such a communal living situation- a satellite congregation of FSD, if you will. I guess this would satisfy the canon law particulars of what is “regular” vs. what is “secular.” Not that, as you observed, secular congregations are any less virtuous or dedicated or esteemed than regular congregations whether first, second, or third order.

Anyway, if I am meant to help FSD become a recognized third order regular congregation, starting with the LA area, then that is what I’m meant to do. Deo gratias!

And what of my questions…is the definition of “fraternity” which seems to be based on medieval concepts, unchanged and unchangeable?

 

[EvelynEVF]

I’m a firm believer that part of finding Francis and living the Gospel as Francis lived it requires that one learn to live with uncertainty and ambiguity. Uncertainty and ambiguity require that one become poor. One has to let go and trust God and man.

I have always said that the greatest treasure to which we hang on to is not money. It’s our need for control. Uncertainty and ambiguity force us to live without controlling everything around us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

BWAH HA HA! That’s a belly laugh because it makes me think of a very specific situation wherein we must trust that the Holy Spirit is active even if we totally don’t get why what happened happened. I didn’t really “get it” as an SFO until I was more than a year into initial formation. And now I really understand why my local SFOs had so much trouble giving concise answers to my global questions about the charism.

iloveangels, there will always be uncertainty and ambiguity in the SFO, but the nice thing is that it’s okay and expected and we have the freedom to just go with it and see where God leads.

 

[joanofarc2008]

I’m a firm believer that part of finding Francis and living the Gospel as Francis lived it requires that one learn to live with uncertainty and ambiguity. Uncertainty and ambiguity require that one become poor. One has to let go and trust God and man.

I have always said that the greatest treasure to which we hang on to is not money. It’s our need for control. Uncertainty and ambiguity force us to live without controlling everything around us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

I love this. I think I am going to print it out later - colored little snow men and all and put it up on my bathroom mirror so I can be reminded. Good to see you on here Evelyn.

 

[iloveangels]

I’m a firm believer that part of finding Francis and living the Gospel as Francis lived it requires that one learn to live with uncertainty and ambiguity. Uncertainty and ambiguity require that one become poor. One has to let go and trust God and man.

I have always said that the greatest treasure to which we hang on to is not money. It’s our need for control. Uncertainty and ambiguity force us to live without controlling everything around us.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF :snowing:

Well, there’s still a lot of ambiguity in this. I’m a convert and my whole experience as a Catholic has been pretty open-ended. Still is. Scary at times, if you want to know the truth, but also very good. It’s not something I’d ever reconsider.

 

[joanofarc2008]

Well, there’s still a lot of ambiguity in this. LOL.

That is why there is a long formation period - for some of us that move a couple of times that formation period can be longer than others. Of course than again - do we ever really stop formation anyway even after profession.

 

[iloveangels]

That is why there is a long formation period - for some of us that move a couple of times that formation period can be longer than others. Of course than again - do we ever really stop formation anyway even after profession.

I don’t think formation ever ends, no. And I’m not sure it’s supposed to end. The two pillars of the third order, I’ve read, are constantly turning your life toward God (which is penance) and works of mercy.

Not sure that constantly turning your life towards God is always a “book” activity, doubt it. As Br JR here has said Franciscan life isn’t just doing; it’s being. So probably it should include a lot more, in addition to understanding what we’re about.

But understanding what we’re about is crucial, I think. Particularly for the secular branch of the third order, which has been where it’s been for so long.

Formation as it’s currently understood is one way of describing “turning your life toward God.” Not the only way, but one way, and a necessary way I think in addition to other ways.

 

[iloveangels]

BWAH HA HA! That’s a belly laugh because it makes me think of a very specific situation wherein we must trust that the Holy Spirit is active even if we totally don’t get why what happened happened. I didn’t really “get it” as an SFO until I was more than a year into initial formation. And now I really understand why my local SFOs had so much trouble giving concise answers to my global questions about the charism.

iloveangels, there will always be uncertainty and ambiguity in the SFO, but the nice thing is that it’s okay and expected and we have the freedom to just go with it and see where God leads.

Thanks, Evelyn. I get that part. That’s how I ended up Catholic. LOL

But I didn’t turn my brain off when I walked in the door. I don’t think that’s necessary and I don’t think God wants it either. God used it to get me here. A person is a composite. Not giving something one’s attention is not making yourself available in as real a way as not being physically present. It’s a sort of going through the motions, if you want to know the truth. A pretty common Catholic attitude in general, btw.

In my experience, being open to the Holy Spirit is a disposition, not necessarily an act of throwing your books out the window and shutting off your mind. People tend to forget the real history of the Franciscan order which includes a lot of ways of being Franciscan.

 

[iloveangels]

Br. JR,

Let me ask you about this:

There have been many Franciscan scholars and theologians. Bonaventure himself was one of them. They lived in community first, but understood their work to be the work of the mind. What of them?

It’s a little known thing that some of the ideas that paved the way for the modern scientific world came from Franciscan scholars. Roger Bacon was an OFM.