Finding Saint Francis

[Marauder]

Certainly taking a walk in the cold, postponing purchases or doing without that last cookie or extra serving are in the same category. I would say that surrepticiously giving away things that you don’t need, as long as they don’t take away from the rest of your family, would fit into that same category.

Those don’t really fit in the area of mortification. They are more penances then mortification. Mortification usually involves something physical that usually involve the skin directly.

Whips and chains and all that stuff are used by a wide variety of people for a wide variety of purposes. You realize this, I hope.

Yes I know of the secular uses of whips and chains, but there are religious versions of these items that have been used by very spiritual people in the past. The chain thing I am talking about is called something like a chapuce or something like that. It basically resembles chain mail and is worn around the leg. It is only supposed to cause discomfort. Similar but more discomfort then that caused by a hair shirt or something like that. The typical whip used by saints in the past doesn’t look anything like those used by secular for other reasons.

Mortification itself is address in the Catholic Encyclopedia, here
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Catholic_Encyclopedia_(1913)/Mortification

and WP does a pretty good job of explaining it here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_in_Roman_Catholic_teaching

Added, just found the name of the metal thing. It is called a cilice. Picture of one is here:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Cilice3.jpg

 

[TrueLight]

Those don’t really fit in the area of mortification. They are more penances then mortification. Mortification usually involves something physical that usually involve the skin directly.

Actually I have read books written by the Saints where they have done “small mortifications”. It doesn’t have to be something painful.

Let me see if I can find a reference.

 

[Marauder]

Actually I have read books written by the Saints where they have done “small mortifications”. It doesn’t have to be something painful.

Let me see if I can find a reference.

I never said it had to be painful. Most of them just are discomfort or even just “fleshly” reminders. It is usually only the people that require the more severe ones where they become painful.

The term mortification actually means death of the flesh. Of course it doesn’t literally mean “death” but if it doesn’t involve the flesh in some way it is more a penance, then a mortification.

 

[TrueLight]

St Therese regarding her small mortifications

“Far from being like to those great souls who from their childhood practice all sorts of macerations, I made my mortification consist solely in the breaking of my will, restraining a hasty word, rendering little services to those around me without making anything of it, and a thousand other things of this kind.”

Here is St John of the Cross referring to interior mortification. Even though I haven’t read all of the page I’m linking to, this seems like good material on penance versus mortification.

Penance and Mortification

Saint John of the Cross: “The ignorance of some is extremely lamentable; they burden themselves with extraordinary penances and many other exercises, thinking these are sufficient to attain union with divine Wisdom. But such practices are insufficient if these souls do not diligently strive to deny their appetites.** If they would attempt to devote only half of that energy to the renunciation of their desires, they would profit more in a month, than in years with all these other exercises… I venture to say that without this mortification, all that is done for the sake of advancement in perfection and in knowledge of God and of oneself is no more profitable than seed sown on uncultivated ground (that is, only producing weeds).** Accordingly, darkness and coarseness will always be with a soul until its appetites are extinguished.”

 

[TrueLight]

I never said it had to be painful. Most of them just are discomfort or even just “fleshly” reminders. It is usually only the people that require the more severe ones where they become painful.

The term mortification actually means death of the flesh. Of course it doesn’t literally mean “death” but if it doesn’t involve the flesh in some way it is more a penance, then a mortification.

There is such a thing as interior mortification as well. Like when someone accuses you of something, especially if it is related to the Lord’s work, and you choose to accept the humiliation rather than defend yourself.

 

[Marauder]

Here is St John of the Cross referring to interior mortification. Even though I haven’t read all of the page I’m linking to, this seems like good material on penance versus mortification.

Like you said, those are “interior” mortifications. Those are quite different from exterior ones. Similar to someone saying they are washing their soul vs. washing their body. They mean different things. One is literal, the other is figurative.

You can have literal “death of the flesh” and you can have the same thing in a figurative form.

Mortification without qualifiers usually refers to something that affects the flesh in some way. Whether it be pain, discomfort, or just a constant reminder (i.e. a cloth scapular worn against the skin.)

The difference between interior mortification and penance is pretty minor.

 

[TrueLight]

True.

But would you agree that stepping into an ice cold shower can be used as a mortification? Unless you like cold showers of course.

 

[Marauder]

But would you agree that stepping into an ice cold shower can be used as a mortification? Unless you like cold showers of course.

It would all depend on the intent. If you are just stepping in the cold shower to get “things” to cool down so you don’t act on an urge, I don’t think that would qualify as a mortification at the time. If you do it later in reperation to God for the urges you felt (or continue to feel) it may be a moritification. It all depends on intent.

 

[TrueLight]

It would all depend on the intent. If you are just stepping in the cold shower to get “things” to cool down so you don’t act on an urge, I don’t think that would qualify as a mortification at the time. If you do it later in reperation to God for the urges you felt (or continue to feel) it may be a moritification. It all depends on intent.

Right. I meant the latter. Thanks.

 

[iloveangels]

Like you said, those are “interior” mortifications. Those are quite different from exterior ones. Similar to someone saying they are washing their soul vs. washing their body. They mean different things. One is literal, the other is figurative.

You can have literal “death of the flesh” and you can have the same thing in a figurative form.

Mortification without qualifiers usually refers to something that affects the flesh in some way. Whether it be pain, discomfort, or just a constant reminder (i.e. a cloth scapular worn against the skin.)

The difference between interior mortification and penance is pretty minor.

Not in the historical sense. Penance, as the word was used by St. Francis, means “turning towards God,” not something specific like taking an insult without rebuke or something like that, although taking an insult without rebuke can be an act in the general turn towards God, especially if it’s been a problem in the past.

There’s a tendency for people to zero in on the sensational stuff, and forget the acts of goodness and faithfulness that can be just as effective, if not more so.

 

[Marauder]

Not in the historical sense. Penance, as the word was used by St. Francis, means “turning towards God,” not something specific like taking an insult without rebuke or something like that, although taking an insult without rebuke can be an act in the general turn towards God, especially if it’s been a problem in the past.

St. Francis used the term in many ways, not just “turning towards God” Actually accepting insults was a form of penance and humility that St. Francis used all the time. He wanted people to call him names. He took rebuke against himself all the time. As long as you were rebuking him personally he would take it. He would not taking rebuking God, Jesus, Lady Poverty or the Church.

As I said the difference between interior mortification and penance can be pretty small. They both can entail the same thing. Early on I said that the Franciscan idea of penance was turning towards God and patterning yourself on the life of Jesus.

 

[TrueLight]

Penance Thread.

 

[iloveangels]

Penance Thread.

Thanks, TrueLight. I’m trying to say what Br JR said in post #34 there.

I’m also remarking that the bizarre and strange is what gets the attention of people so many times, ie. cups of pus and all that. The science fiction school of mystical theology…LOL.

 

[iloveangels]

St. Francis used the term in many ways, not just “turning towards God” Actually accepting insults was a form of penance and humility that St. Francis used all the time. He wanted people to call him names. He took rebuke against himself all the time. As long as you were rebuking him personally he would take it. He would not taking rebuking God, Jesus, Lady Poverty or the Church.

As I said the difference between interior mortification and penance can be pretty small. They both can entail the same thing. Early on I said that the Franciscan idea of penance was turning towards God and patterning yourself on the life of Jesus.

Okay, bad example. We should always turn the other cheek, and St. Francis was an example of this, par excellence. What I mean is that life is full of opportunities to practice our faith.

Somewhere on these boards is a thread about how the weird penances, cups of pus and chains and all that, were used only in the early stages of the sanctification of some saints. Later on, they typically buckle down and get to the real stuff, which is obedience, tolerance and patience in union with the Church, and in a big way.

The interesting thing is that it’s easily possible to get it backwards. It’s not that “turning towards God” is smaller or more insignificant than some particular practice. Rather, it’s the other way around. Think of a Venn diagram. If “turning towards God” is the biggest circle, all the specific practices are little spots inside that biggest circle. Not only that, but you might think of “turning towards God” as a big goal on the way toward loving him, whilst the little spots inside are tools; not the same kind of thing.

 

[iloveangels]

Okay, bad example. We should always turn the other cheek, and St. Francis was an example of this, par excellence. What I mean is that life is full of opportunities to practice our faith.

Somewhere on these boards is a thread about how the weird penances, cups of pus and chains and all that, were used only in the early stages of the sanctification of some saints. Later on, they typically buckle down and get to the real stuff, which is obedience, tolerance and patience in union with the Church, and in a big way.

The interesting thing is that it’s easily possible to get it backwards. It’s not that “turning towards God” is smaller or more insignificant than some particular practice. Rather, it’s the other way around. Think of a Venn diagram. If “turning towards God” is the biggest circle, all the specific practices are little spots inside that biggest circle. Not only that, but you might think of “turning towards God” as a big goal on the way toward loving him, whilst the little spots inside are tools; not the same kind of thing.

The difficulty is that the word “penance” has several common meanings in the Catholic vocabulary, and the one we think of most is the one we get in Confession which usually is something we have to do to atone for something. But that’s not the historical meaning of the word “penance.” The historical meaning is something much larger than that and it’s somewhat abstract–something else we don’t like.

 

[Julia_Mae]

However, wearing a rough hair shirt on bare skin is probably something you should talk over with a spiritual advisor who knows you,

Absolutely. Saint Faustina asked for permission to wear one and was instantly and emphatically denied. That’s not a simple thing that’s bloody and can lead to infection and… do they even make them now? ew

There was a question ITT about what to wear to an SFO meeting and if people would think badly of you if you dressed for it. Then there’s me and my stupid purse. I was thinking of penance in terms of detachment - from opinions as well as things.

The trick is to pray in the closet. To fast with a smiling face. I don’t think the SFO meeting matters as much, but how about for the other parts of life, a woman going around in simple non-fashionable clothing (but not so dumpy it attracts attention) with no make-up and giving up jewelry and hair dye?

I’m not saying anyone a should, I’m saying that even thinking about doing this for some would be a huge sacrifice and darned scary. Yet, there seems to be something a bit dissonant about wearing a fancier Tau to go with formal clothes. OTOH, do you go without? Or wear a wooden Tau with an evening dress that is sure to attract lots of attention?

 

[Julia_Mae]

There is such a thing as interior mortification as well. Like when someone accuses you of something, especially if it is related to the Lord’s work, and you choose to accept the humiliation rather than defend yourself.

Yes, this seems very Franciscan to me.

But I keep thinking that when we have the committed prayer practice, these things become something we long for. To simplify, to avoid conflict, to be inspired to peace by not insisting on being acknowledged as right just because we are. To be so connected spiritually that what’s happening around us seems just kind of, almost irrelevant.

 

[EvelynEVF]

Yet, there seems to be something a bit dissonant about wearing a fancier Tau to go with formal clothes. OTOH, do you go without? Or wear a wooden Tau with an evening dress that is sure to attract lots of attention?

For the record, my enamel Tau is still quite plain But wearing a wooden Tau with my nice Christmas dress would indeed attract attention, because my wooden one has been been through quite a bit of real life and no longer has a nice finish, shows some bite marks from a small child, etc. (Little kids really like to hold on to it) Maybe if I sanded and refinished it, then it would work with nicer clothes, but I would be obliterating its history. Plus then it would look like a fancy Tau and not look right with everyday clothes.

Seriously, though, I think we each need to decide what is most appropriate/congruent given our secular lives.

 

[iloveangels]

I don’t think the SFO meeting matters as much, but how about for the other parts of life, a woman going around in simple non-fashionable clothing (but not so dumpy it attracts attention) with no make-up and giving up jewelry and hair dye?

I’m not saying anyone a should, I’m saying that even thinking about doing this for some would be a huge sacrifice and darned scary. Yet, there seems to be something a bit dissonant about wearing a fancier Tau to go with formal clothes. OTOH, do you go without? Or wear a wooden Tau with an evening dress that is sure to attract lots of attention?

That’s a good question for someone thinking of going to their first SFO meeting. SFOs come with all kinds of clothes, . It all depends on what’s going on, who they are, and what’s going on in their lives. There really is no law about that, except that clothes shouldn’t be running a person’s life or anything near it. Obviously, if a person is an SFO, right?

Clothes are stuff to put on, for privacy, modesty and health’s sake, and certain kinds are necessary for certain jobs you might have to do. I work in science, ergo khakis/jeans, short sleeved blouses and shoes with solid toes. The SFO has members who do everything from emergency room medicine to housework to sales and service occupations for a living and there are a lot of retired people and some mommies with babies & diaper bags in tow, so they all dress a bit different, which doesn’t really matter much. They come to enjoy the meeting with other members.

PS: You will tend not to see a lot of expensive jewelry–diamond boulders, etc, barring wedding rings and ordinary everyday stuff.

PS, if you saw us in any other kind of diocesan weeknight gathering, like a class on a film etc, you probably wouldn’t notice anything different except the occasional Taus if you knew to look for them.

 

[iloveangels]

For the record, my enamel Tau is still quite plain But wearing a wooden Tau with my nice Christmas dress would indeed attract attention, because my wooden one has been been through quite a bit of real life and no longer has a nice finish, shows some bite marks from a small child, etc. (Little kids really like to hold on to it) Maybe if I sanded and refinished it, then it would work with nicer clothes, but I would be obliterating its history. Plus then it would look like a fancy Tau and not look right with everyday clothes.

Seriously, though, I think we each need to decide what is most appropriate/congruent given our secular lives.

Good explanation, EvelynEVF. (Maybe the shape makes a good handle for a little hand. ) It’s fine to have several Taus to go different places, I would think. I do too. Like anything else, they do wear out and get lost on occasion.

Actually when you wear it everywhere, it often doesn’t get noticed but sometimes it does. One’s behavior is more likely to be noticed. In a Catholic crowd, where there are other Franciscans, it makes it easier for them to spot you.

When I used to teach school and wear my Tau in the classroom, my students were convinced that the Tau stood for Teacher, even when I told them otherwise. They wanted it to be about them. It was funny and a bit touching. So it was T for Teacher.