First Cause

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This is the exact reason that your statements are nonsensical. There are not two things here to dispute. There is only one thing. Actus Purus.
If there is only Actus Purus and Actus Purus caused the world then the world is eternal and had no beginning. How could Actus Purus not be causing the world if it is never potential? The world and Actus Purus must be co-eternal and Genesis 1:1 must be wrong.

rossum
 
If there…
I take this unrelated and non sequitir comment as a tacit admission that you are ready to publicly acknowledge the validity of the proof that First Cause is not contingent as you had claimed?
 
I take this unrelated and non sequitir comment as a tacit admission that you are ready to publicly acknowledge the validity of the proof that First Cause is not contingent as you had claimed?
If you cannot accept one of my arguments then rather than repeat it ad nauseam I shall switch to a different argument, as I have done here. Your definition of First Cause = Actus Purus requires an eternal creation…

The First Cause still must contain potentiality before the existence of anything it has caused. I am merely pointing out that if you insist on the absence of potentiality in the First Cause then there can be no time before the origin of what is caused. Hence the world must be eternal.

It is another way of looking at the same problem.

rossum
 
If there is only Actus Purus and Actus Purus caused the world then the world is eternal and had no beginning. How could Actus Purus not be causing the world if it is never potential? The world and Actus Purus must be co-eternal and Genesis 1:1 must be wrong.

rossum
Are you suggesting that Actus Pursus must be in the act of creating as there is no potentiality within Actus Pursus? As Actus Purus is existence without potentiality in any form, Actus Purus must precede the potentiality of any creation. The act of creation involves an exercise of will, not an act of exigency. Furthermore, in everything that is created, it must have had potentiality as created potentiality precedes that of actuality. Therefore, if there was any potentiality in creation, it could have not been eternal.
 
Then it is misleading to call it “causality” since it is not the same as worldly causality. Let us call it ‘candya’ instead, so as to avoid confusion. What are the properties of candya? Please provide examples of candya to support your statements. Remember that statements about causation may not necessarily apply to candya.
Is “candya” close to “candy”?

You seem to be uncomfortable with “analogy”. But meanings are not always univocal. A word may have more than one meaning but the plurality of meanings are in some way related. Think of Wittgenstein’s family resemblances.

Or better yet, think of Cantor’s transfinite numbers. These are indeed numbers. But they don’t behave like finite numbers. If you add alephs, you don’t get alephs greater than the highest aleph added. In a way, this feature of Cantor’s transfinite numbers is analogous to God plus world not being greater than God without world – except that God is the greatest aleph (contrary to Cantor’s proof that there is no greatest aleph).

You could say that, with Cantor, there was a “breakdown” of previous concepts of numbers, analogous to the instability introduced into Aristotelian metaphysics by the Christian Creator God. But does that mean we have to scuttle Aristotle?
 
The Buddhist approach differs from the usual Western approach to the nature of the world. In Buddhist philosophy change needs no explanation as to its origin since the world is change.
Then Buddhism is just serving an assertion with out question.

Since you have shown no evidence that you have really addressed my last post and acknowledged the logical contradictions that you face in supporting your position, i don’t think that i can consider your choice of Buddhism a surprise.
It is stasis, non-change, that needs the explanation.
I am no-longer interested in answering your posts, but for the sake of other people who honestly want to learn, i will give one more attempt at an explanation.

First of all; Necessity does not need an explanation and neither does it require your understanding, and we cannot expect to fully understand it because we do not experience it directly in the same way that we experience immediate physical objects. This is not a cop-out, since on the other hand, we know that potential reality needs an explanation because we understand it and thats because we experience it directly; and because of that we can also understand that potentiality cannot exist by itself and therefore it would be dishonest of us to leave it unexplained. The only possible explanation is a “reality” that is not synonymous with potential beings or events. The existence of such a reality is a necessary existential prerequisite of potentiality and so does not need an explanation in-order to be accepted as real, since it must be accepted in-order to preserve objective logic. Its not just that potentiality needs an explanation, but also rationality and logical truth itself needs an existential foundation that is not potentially real or a product of potentiality; and this is because logical truth is eternal, it does not change. The first cause is absolutely necessary for the existence of these things, we cannot question its existence without destroying logical discourse.

Thus in-order to preserve objective logic we must admit that therefore the idea of a unchanging first cause is only apparently contradictory because of our epistemological limitations, and not ontologically contradictory.

The first cause is still an intellectual problem, but not because of a flaw in the idea of a first cause. Rather it exists because of our finite capacity to understand. However, we can still grasp some understanding of how it is possible.

It begins in the understanding that the first cause is absolutely perfect in its existence and nature. We must also accept that the first cause cannot be something that is non-intelligent. We must also understand that because the first cause is perfect that therefore its intelligence and will is also perfect in its expression of that existence. We must also understand that a perfect will as a perfect expression somethings nature has no beginning because it is one with its nature. Because it is one with its nature, it does not change and does need to because its will is to express its nature perfectly. We must also understand that God does not create for any imperfect reason, since this would cause a change in its nature, and since the first cause is already a perfect being, to seek perfection is contradictory. Thus we must understand that the will to create is the will to share its perfection, and that this will is a perfect expression of its nature, and because its will is a perfect expression of its nature, the will to create does not have a beginning, and thus never changes, because it has always existed with God. The act of sharing ones perfections is act of love, and thus love is an intrinsic and timeless expression of the first cause in respect of its nature. To love is intrinsic to the nature of perfection. To love is to share ones perfections. One of those perfections is to “exist”. Thus we can understand why things other than God exist, because they are all to varying degrees sharing in Gods perfection. Because love does not discriminate, all things that are logically possible could exist, but whether or not they come to exist will not be determine directly via fiat by God, but rather God timelessly creates a seed of potentiality which contains principles and laws which is left to freely evolve.

God is not non-activity (stasis), but rather God is pure activity. Pure activity is not made up of many things or potential events, but rather is one and simple. This kind of activity cannot be imperfect, and this is to say that it does not take on more existence. His “perfect will” is eternally present in his “perfect being” and is a perfect expression of his nature. Since the will of such a being is to express its nature perfectly, its will never changes because its nature has always existed. The world in a sense is eternally created; and this would be to say that “creation” for God is not an “event”, but rather it is something that has forever existed, since it is a timeless expression of Gods timeless will. Time itself sits on the eternal will of God. Gods creativity has never not existed.
An unchanging cause cannot cause a changing effect.
Not true.

An imperfect nature with an imperfect will cannot cause an effect without changing. Also an imperfect cause does not have in its nature alone the power to bring about the reality of the effect because it not itself the source of reality, but rather it is a mere medium to reality. The universe cannot exist without perfection.
 
It is very important because it is the main objection made by monists (usually materialists) to dualism.
I know. That’s why it’s important to refute materialism and monism.
This implies an infinite regress of lives…
Certainly.

An infinite regress of causes is generally considered as unsatisfactory because it merely postpones the question of the ultimate question! 🙂
So there is no beginning but there is an end? Or at least an unchanging end?
The end is not unchanging. It has to be changing for there to be any hope of enlightenment. Nirvana has to be able to change from nirnana-without-rossum to nirvana-with-rossum.

Does it keep changing to include rossum?
Is the entire process of being born and becoming an inexplicable brute fact?
The process exists and we are caught up in it. The important task is to escape from it, and we know how to perform that task. Looking beyond that may be interesting but is not currently useful. Maybe after enlightenment we can devote time to that.

I should have thought that is a part of enlightenment. 🙂
 
Due to missing words, i have posted this section again, because i ran out of editing time.

It begins in the understanding that the first cause is absolutely perfect in its existence and nature. We must also accept that the first cause cannot be something that is non-intelligent. We must also understand that because the first cause is perfect that therefore its intelligence and will is also perfect in expressing its existence. We must also understand that a perfect will as a perfect expression of somethings nature has no beginning or change because it is one with its nature. Because it is one with its nature, it does not change and does need to because its will is to express its nature perfectly. We must also understand that God does not create for any imperfect reason, since this would cause a change in its nature, and since the first cause is already a perfect being, to seek perfection is contradictory. Thus we must understand that the will to create is the will to share its perfection, and that this will is a perfect expression of its nature, and because its will is a perfect expression of its nature, the will to create does not have a beginning, and thus never changes, because it has always existed with God. The act of sharing ones perfections is an act of love, and thus love is an intrinsic and timeless expression of the first cause in respect of its nature. To love is intrinsic to the nature of perfection. To love is to share ones perfections. One of those perfections is to “exist”. Thus we can understand why things other than God exists, because they are all to varying degrees sharing in Gods perfection. Because love does not discriminate, all things that are logically possible have the potentiality to exist, but whether or not they will exist will not be determine directly via fiat by God, but rather God timelessly creates a seed of potentiality which contains principles and laws which is left to freely evolve.
 
Are you suggesting that Actus Pursus must be in the act of creating as there is no potentiality within Actus Pursus?
Is Actus Pursus an actual cause or a potential cause? If it is an actual cause then it has either caused something in the past or it is currently causing something. If it is never potential then there is never a time when it is not either causing or has caused in the past.

rossum
 
Does it keep changing to include rossum?
Yes.
I should have thought that is a part of enlightenment. 🙂
At one time the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in Simsapa Grove. Then the Blessed One, taking a few Simsapa leaves in his hand, said to the monks: “What do you think, monks? Which are the more numerous, the few leaves I have here in my hand, or those up in the trees of the grove?”

“Lord, the Blessed One is holding only a few leaves: those up in the trees are far more numerous.”

"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little.
  • Simsapa sutta, Samyutta Nikaya, 56.31
rossum
 
Is “candya” close to “candy”?
I used a random word generator I had constructed for other purposes.
Or better yet, think of Cantor’s transfinite numbers.
An excellent analogy. Some properties carry across while other properties don’t. In order to know whether or not a property will carry across it is necessary to do some detailed analytical work. It seems to me that, at least here in these discussion groups, that detailed work is not done. Properties are assumed to carry over from cause to candya, or not to carry over, as convenient. “God is a cause except when God is not a cause like ordinary causes.”

Buddhist analysis does not make exceptions for God. Such exceptions have to be justified.

rossum
 
If you cannot accept one of my arguments then rather than repeat it ad nauseam
As I pointed out, you were making nonsensical statements because you thought that Actus Purus and First Cause were two different things. No argument was actually made for me to accept or reject.
I shall switch to a different argument, as I have done here. Your definition of First Cause = Actus Purus requires an eternal creation. The First Cause still must contain potentiality before the existence of anything it has caused.
You still don’t really understand. Since you have already admitted that Actus Purus is Pure Act and Actus Purus is First Cause, you must agree that First Cause cannot contain any potentiality.
I am merely pointing out that if you insist on the absence of potentiality in the First Cause then there can be no time before the origin of what is caused. Hence the world must be eternal.
Does this mean that you are ready to accept that the proof is valid and First Cause is not contingent as you had claimed? If you are merely pointing out some other idea then I assume the question of the proof is settled.
 
– except that God is the greatest aleph (contrary to Cantor’s proof that there is no greatest aleph).
Of course, God is not the greatest aleph because God is not a number, even a transfinite number. I was being a bit playful.

It should be noted that Cantor himself waxed theological at times and, indeed, may have
made a connection between transfinite numbers and God.
 
It seems to me that, at least here in these discussion groups, that detailed work is not done. Properties are assumed to carry over from cause to candya, or not to carry over, as convenient. “God is a cause except when God is not a cause like ordinary causes.”
/QUOTE]

Your criticism is both justified and a tad harsh. It’s hard to do detailed work in 20 minutes.

But I can understand your frustration. The analogical approach of Thomistic theology sometimes seems like a desperate attempt to shore up fragments against an eventual ruination.

However, the stresses and strains associated with analogy have shown up in other areas beside theology, e.g., physics. When is a particle not a particle? When it’s a wave.

And, speaking of causes, what about quantum foam?

Everything has become quite “shaky” as of late.
 
As I pointed out, you were making nonsensical statements because you thought that Actus Purus and First Cause were two different things.
I showed that they were two different things.
No argument was actually made for me to accept or reject.
I did make an argument.
  1. *]The First Cause has potentiality before it causes any effect.
    *]Actus Purus is pure actuality with no potentiality.
    *]Therefore the First Cause cannot be Actus Purus.
    Since you have already admitted that Actus Purus is Pure Act
    Yes, I have agreed that.
    and Actus Purus is First Cause,
    No. That is what I am disputing. See my argument above.
    Does this mean that you are ready to accept that the proof is valid and First Cause is not contingent as you had claimed?
    No. I am taking your assertion as true merely for the sake of argument, and showing that it logically leads to a paradox. If your assertion leads to a paradox then it shows that your initial assertion was wrong. It was a proof by contradiction. Your assertion leads to an eternal universe and the falsity of Genesis 1:1.

    rossum
 
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