First Cause

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Your criticism is both justified and a tad harsh. It’s hard to do detailed work in 20 minutes.
Agreed, on all three points.
But I can understand your frustration. The analogical approach of Thomistic theology sometimes seems like a desperate attempt to shore up fragments against an eventual ruination.
It seems to me that one of the reasons these discussions go on somewhat is that we are all taking different subsets of the properties of material causation and applying them to divine causation. Since we are using different subsets of properties we can use those different subsets to justify different conclusions.
And, speaking of causes, what about quantum foam?
Don’t mention quantum foam! I mentioned it once but I think I got away with it. 🙂

rossum
 
An infinite regress of causes is generally considered as unsatisfactory because it merely postpones the question of the ultimate question!
The end is not unchanging. It has to be changing for there to be any hope of enlightenment. Nirvana has to be able to change from nirnana-without-rossum to nirvana-with-rossum. How can an end be changing? Unless it changes to nothing!
At one time the Blessed One was staying at Kosambi in Simsapa Grove. Then the Blessed One, taking a few Simsapa leaves in his hand, said to the monks: “What do you think, monks? Which are the more numerous, the few leaves I have here in my hand, or those up in the trees of the grove?”
“Lord, the Blessed One is holding only a few leaves: those up in the trees are far more numerous.”
"In the same way, monks, there are many more things that I have found out, but not revealed to you. What I have revealed to you is only a little.
  • Simsapa sutta, Samyutta Nikaya, 56.31
How do you know all this is true?
[/QUOTE]
 
The analogical approach of Thomistic theology sometimes seems like a desperate attempt to shore up fragments against an eventual ruination.
For my Dominican friends:

Please note that I said “seems” – not “is”. I know - this sounds Clintonian.

So let’s not jettison “analogy” - at least just yet.

Nor should we scuttle Aristotle.

“Shipwreck” can be avoided.
 
…I did make an argument.
  1. *]The First Cause has potentiality before it causes any effect.

  1. This sentence says Actus Purus is not pure act.
    *]Actus Purus is pure actuality with no potentiality.
    This sentence says that Actus Purus is pure act
    *]Therefore the First Cause cannot be Actus Purus.
    This sentence doesn’t mean anything because the premise’s contradict each other. Its a non-sequitir. All you have created is a string of words that don’t make any sense. Strings of words that don’t make sense are not arguments no matter how badly you want them to be. There are not two different things to differentiate here. There is only one. Actus Purus. First Cause is not a thing separate from Actus Purus, it is Actus Purus. When you say the words First Cause, you refer to Actus Purus, no differently than the word rossum refers to you.
 
Then Buddhism is just serving an assertion with out question.

Since you have shown no evidence that you have really addressed my last post and acknowledged the logical contradictions that you face in supporting your position, i don’t think that i can consider your choice of Buddhism a surprise.

I am no-longer interested in answering your posts, but for the sake of other people who honestly want to learn, i will give one more attempt at an explanation.

First of all; Necessity does not need an explanation and neither does it require your understanding, and we cannot expect to fully understand it because we do not experience it directly in the same way that we experience immediate physical objects. This is not a cop-out, since on the other hand, we know that potential reality needs an explanation because we understand it and thats because we experience it directly; and because of that we can also understand that potentiality cannot exist by itself and therefore it would be dishonest of us to leave it unexplained. The only possible explanation is a “reality” that is not synonymous with potential beings or events. The existence of such a reality is a necessary existential prerequisite of potentiality and so does not need an explanation in-order to be accepted as real, since it must be accepted in-order to preserve objective logic. Its not just that potentiality needs an explanation, but also rationality and logical truth itself needs an existential foundation that is not potentially real or a product of potentiality; and this is because logical truth is eternal, it does not change. The first cause is absolutely necessary for the existence of these things, we cannot question its existence without destroying logical discourse.

Thus in-order to preserve objective logic we must admit that therefore the idea of a unchanging first cause is only apparently contradictory because of our epistemological limitations, and not ontologically contradictory.

The first cause is still an intellectual problem, but not because of a flaw in the idea of a first cause. Rather it exists because of our finite capacity to understand. However, we can still grasp some understanding of how it is possible.

It begins in the understanding that the first cause is absolutely perfect in its existence and nature. We must also accept that the first cause cannot be something that is non-intelligent. We must also understand that because the first cause is perfect that therefore its intelligence and will is also perfect in its expression of that existence. We must also understand that a perfect will as a perfect expression somethings nature has no beginning because it is one with its nature. Because it is one with its nature, it does not change and does need to because its will is to express its nature perfectly. We must also understand that God does not create for any imperfect reason, since this would cause a change in its nature, and since the first cause is already a perfect being, to seek perfection is contradictory. Thus we must understand that the will to create is the will to share its perfection, and that this will is a perfect expression of its nature, and because its will is a perfect expression of its nature, the will to create does not have a beginning, and thus never changes, because it has always existed with God. The act of sharing ones perfections is act of love, and thus love is an intrinsic and timeless expression of the first cause in respect of its nature. To love is intrinsic to the nature of perfection. To love is to share ones perfections. One of those perfections is to “exist”. Thus we can understand why things other than God exist, because they are all to varying degrees sharing in Gods perfection. Because love does not discriminate, all things that are logically possible could exist, but whether or not they come to exist will not be determine directly via fiat by God, but rather God timelessly creates a seed of potentiality which contains principles and laws which is left to freely evolve.

God is not non-activity (stasis), but rather God is pure activity. Pure activity is not made up of many things or potential events, but rather is one and simple. This kind of activity cannot be imperfect, and this is to say that it does not take on more existence. His “perfect will” is eternally present in his “perfect being” and is a perfect expression of his nature. Since the will of such a being is to express its nature perfectly, its will never changes because its nature has always existed. The world in a sense is eternally created; and this would be to say that “creation” for God is not an “event”, but rather it is something that has forever existed, since it is a timeless expression of Gods timeless will. Time itself sits on the eternal will of God. Gods creativity has never not existed.

Not true.

An imperfect nature with an imperfect will cannot cause an effect without changing. Also an imperfect cause does not have in its nature alone the power to bring about the reality of the effect because it not itself the source of reality, but rather it is a mere medium to reality. The universe cannot exist without perfection.
blue is nice!

i give thanks to Actus Purus this philosophy forum evolved and that every poster exists.

onto another mind-tickling thread… 🍿
 
This sentence says Actus Purus is not pure act.
No. The sentence says that the First Cause is not pure act. You are assuming that First Cause = Actus Purus. I reject that assumption for reasons I have stated. I do not accept an actual cause that has not produced any effect.

rossum
 
Is Actus Pursus an actual cause or a potential cause? If it is an actual cause then it has either caused something in the past or it is currently causing something. If it is never potential then there is never a time when it is not either causing or has caused in the past.

rossum
Yes, but you didn’t address the second part of the issue, which is the potentiality aspect in the creation of the Universe. It cannot be eternal if it was created. Actus Pursus precedes the creation of the Universe and if something was at one point potential (not actual), it cannot be eternal.
 
It’s very interesting reading through the various posts. Everyone appears to have their own positions and most don’t want to deviate too much. Here is my take which I’ll summarize to avoid length and too much vagueness.
  1. First Cause makes no sense. Something did not come from nothing. Period!
  2. Nothing is infinite except ENERGY and MATTER! Energy and matter has no beginning or end. If you want to call energy and matter “God” then knock yourself out.
  3. Without energy and matter nothing can exist.
  4. Everything in the cosmos is part and parcel to the cosmos. NOTHING in existence is seperate.
  5. We and everything in existence are nothing more than recycled matter and energy.
  6. Empty space, where existence is not needed for the sustainability of the cosmos, borders the cosmos…
  7. The cosmos can be viewed as one living organism with an instinct to survive. Period!
  8. Everything is eternal within the confines of the cosmos because everything is made of matter and energy.
    Have a good day everyone!
 
…You are assuming that First Cause = Actus Purus.
As you already know, it is not an assumption it is a logical necessity. As has been demonstrated for you many times Actus Purus, the act of existing is logically necessary because the act of not existing is a logical contradiction.
I reject that assumption for reasons I have stated…
None of your proffered reasons have anything to do with the logical necessity of Actus Purus. As I keep trying to tell you, you are not making the statements you think you are. You were not disputing the premise as you thought. You do not have a logical refutation to the proof that First Cause is logically necessary and thus not contingent as you had claimed. Are you ready to accept the proof, or do you have yet another objection?
 
Yes, but you didn’t address the second part of the issue, which is the potentiality aspect in the creation of the Universe. It cannot be eternal if it was created. Actus Pursus precedes the creation of the Universe and if something was at one point potential (not actual), it cannot be eternal.
Which is precisely my point about the First Cause. If the ‘first effect’ is not eternal then there was a time when the ‘first effect’ was not in existence. During that time the First Cause was not an actual cause but merely a potential cause. Hence in this case the First Cause cannot be Actus Purus.

If the First Cause is Actus Purus then the ‘first effect’ must also be eternal in order that the First Cause is always actual and never potential.

rossum
 
As you already know, it is not an assumption it is a logical necessity.
I know no such thing. You are asserting it repeatedly, but are offering no support.
As has been demonstrated for you many times Actus Purus, the act of existing is logically necessary because the act of not existing is a logical contradiction. None of your proffered reasons have anything to do with the logical necessity of Actus Purus.
That is because I am not currently debating the existence of Actus Purus. I am debating the nature of the First Cause.

If the First Cause is Actus Purus as you say, then the First Cause is eternal and whatever it causes is also eternal. There can be no time when it is not causing. Your assertion leads to a paradox so it is reasonable to say that your assertion is incorrect.

rossum
 
Here is my take which I’ll summarize to avoid length and too much vagueness.
If this is your position, then i fail to understand why you call yourself Catholic
  1. First Cause makes no sense.
That depends on what you mean by a first cause.
Something did not come from nothing. Period!
I agree. You should apply the same reasoning to physical reality, since that is the object we begin with in our immediate knowledge…
  1. Nothing is infinite except ENERGY
Scientific statements are not metaphysical statements. To say that there is no known physical means of creating or destroying energy does not amount to saying that it is logically impossible for energy to be created and destroyed.
and MATTER! Energy and matter has no beginning or end.
You have not come to this conclusion based on scientific evidence. An infinite quantity is meaningless. All real quantities are finite.
  1. Without energy and matter nothing can exist.
Without energy matter and space nothing “physical” can exist. Thats about as far as the existential limitations go.
  1. Everything in the cosmos is part and parcel to the cosmos. NOTHING in existence is separate.
In a sense, no “physical thing” in existence is separate, but there are clearly distinctions. Space, time, and energy, are not synonymous terms.
  1. We and everything in existence are nothing more than recycled matter and energy.
This is a reductionist assertion. Its clearly evident that somethings are more than the sum of their parts. In some effects it is clear that there was more than what was essentially in the cause; otherwise we could not have an evolving universe that gives rise to new qualities, and thus new potential realties. We live in a holistic universe, not a reductionist universe. Since out of nothing comes nothing, there is evidently more to reality then simply “recycled energy”.
  1. The cosmos can be viewed as one living organism with an instinct to survive. Period!
This is not science or metaphysics. This is standard new age mumbo jumbo.
  1. Everything is eternal within the confines of the cosmos because everything is made of matter and energy.
Its impossible to have an infinite regress of potentiality. Out of nothing comes nothing. Therefore there has to be a first cause.
 
I know no such thing. You are asserting it repeatedly, but are offering no support.
You absolutely do know it is logically necessary, you quoted the demonstration in this post and you have responded to many posts containing the demonstration. So you know it is not an assertion, or an assumption. It is an unalterable fact of logic. First Cause=Actus Purus.
That is because I am not currently debating the existence of Actus Purus. I am debating the nature of the First Cause.
That’s the problem, if you are debating First Cause, you are debating the nature of Actus Purus. The words First Cause refer to Actus Purus. I
If the First Cause is Actus Purus as you say, then the First Cause is eternal and whatever it causes is also eternal. There can be no time when it is not causing. Your assertion leads to a paradox so it is reasonable to say that your assertion is incorrect.
P1. First Cause is eternal.
C1. whatever it causes is also eternal.
Your conclusion is nonsequitir. There is no way to deduce C1 from P1. No paradox
 
You absolutely do know it is logically necessary
Your attempt to read my mind failed.
P1. First Cause is eternal.
C1. whatever it causes is also eternal.
Your conclusion is nonsequitir. There is no way to deduce C1 from P1. No paradox
You have overly abbreviated my argument.

P1 The First Cause is eternal.
P2 The First Cause is eternally actual and never potential.
P3 A cause which has never actually caused any effect is a potential cause, not an actual cause.
C1 The First Cause has eternally caused something because it is an actual, not potential, cause.
C2 There is at least one eternal effect of the eternally actual First Cause.

The paradox remains. An actual cause must have an actual effect. An eternal actual cause must have an eternal actual effect.

rossum
 
That is not the same as a physical end.
The Buddha was physically alive. Nirvana is not ‘somewhere else’ like the heavens, it is here and now.Samsara does not have the slightest distinction from Nirvana.
Nirvana does not have the slightest distinction from Samsara.

Whatever is the end of Nirvana, that is the end of Samsara.
There is not even a very subtle slight distinction between the two.
  • Nagarjuna, Mulamadhyamakakarika 25:19-20
Is it a secret?
Hardly. I quoted the Assu sutta. I find the Buddha to be a trustworthy source.

rossum
 
Your attempt to read my mind failed.
You stated that I was merely asserting Actus Purus was logically necessary, in the very post that you quoted one of the great many demonstrations that it is a bare logical fact. Changing the subject is an admission that the proof demonstrates that you were wrong, First Cause is not contingent as you claimed.
You have overly abbreviated my argument.
The strings of words that you refer to as “arguments” continues to amaze me. Nonsensical strings of misused terms do not make an argument. They just don’t make sense. Look at the “argument” you pose below.
P1 The First Cause is eternal.
P2 The First Cause is eternally actual and never potential.
P3 A cause which has never actually caused any effect is a potential cause, not an actual cause.
C1 The First Cause has eternally caused something because it is an actual, not potential, cause.
C2 There is at least one eternal effect of the eternally actual First Cause.
P1 Actus Purus
P2 Actus Purus
P3 Nonsensical statement concerning the rules of grammar for the English word “cause” instead of the object of the previous two premise’ Actus Purus.
C1 Nonsensical statement about Actus Purus causing something because it is Actus Purus.
C2 Non sequitir conclusion “therefore Actus Purus caused something”
…An actual cause must have an actual effect. An eternal actual cause must have an eternal actual effect.
An actual cause, is just a cause. I don’t know what you think adding the word "actual’ means here. If you are claiming that a cause needs an effect to exist it is obvious that this is not true. Your parents exist whether you do or not. It doesn’t matter what you call them, they still exist. But what do you think any of this has to do with Actus Purus?
 
You stated that I was merely asserting Actus Purus was logically necessary, in the very post that you quoted one of the great many demonstrations that it is a bare logical fact. Changing the subject is an admission that the proof demonstrates that you were wrong, First Cause is not contingent as you claimed.
The strings of words that you refer to as “arguments” continues to amaze me. Nonsensical strings of misused terms do not make an argument. They just don’t make sense. Look at the “argument” you pose below.

P1 Actus Purus
P2 Actus Purus
P3 Nonsensical statement concerning the rules of grammar for the English word “cause” instead of the object of the previous two premise’ Actus Purus.
C1 Nonsensical statement about Actus Purus causing something because it is Actus Purus.
C2 Non sequitir conclusion “therefore Actus Purus caused something”

An actual cause, is just a cause. I don’t know what you think adding the word "actual’ means here. If you are claiming that a cause needs an effect to exist it is obvious that this is not true. Your parents exist whether you do or not. It doesn’t matter what you call them, they still exist. But what do you think any of this has to do with Actus Purus?
How do your parents exist whether you do or not?

You baffle me and amaze at once.
 
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