First Ever - Tridentine Mass in Phoenix, AZ -- Packed Standing Room Only

[T_Stanek]

Refreshing to see your point of view.

 

[lily628]

I am converting from Evangelical, so I don’t know much about the Tridentine rite mass. Can someone tell me how much of it is in English and how much is in Latin? I am sincerely inquiring here, not seeking to attack anyone’s mode of worship.

My first inclination is to think, “How do you understand what is going on or what’s being said?” I am converting after going to a liturgical Episcopalian church for two years, and I still have trouble following the mass in English. (I’ve been attending mass since February at two different parishes due to moving home from college.) How do visitors hear the gospel and know what’s going on? How does anyone know what’s going on without knowing Latin?

Thanks and God bless!

 

[system]

lily628:

I am converting from Evangelical, so I don’t know much about the Tridentine rite mass. Can someone tell me how much of it is in English and how much is in Latin? My first inclination is to think, “How do you understand what is going on or what’s being said?”

The reason the old Mass was revised during the 1960’s is due to concerns just like yours. No one knew Latin, therefore they didn’t really know what was going on since the entire Mass was in it. I suppose after awhile the ritual becomes familiar, but unless one is willing to study Latin one can’t really understand. Therefore you had a lot of people saying their own private prayers until Communion time, and priests mumbling the prayers at breakneck speed.

Good luck to you.

 

[Iohannes]

I don’t speak Latin, but I understand what’s going on a Traditional Latin Mass. Your assertion that people did not know what was going on during Mass before 1965 is rubbish.

If Latin was the problem why could they not just simply translate the 1962 Mass into English?

 

[swampfox]

:clapping: I am SOOOOOOO happy the Tridentine Latin Mass (of the indult) is spreading in popularity in this country!!:dancing: I hope the Bishops continue to realize that for the MOST part, this is not because people are nostalgic about the past, but because they are tired of all the liturgical abuses: Clown Masses, liturgical dancers, ballons and party supplies in many Masses, priest telling jolks literally from the pulpit, 10 or more (usually ultra-feminists) extra-ordinary ministers of the Eucharist, who distribute while the pries/priests sit down and lead the pe ople in the pew in singing on Eagle’s Wings, or other 1970’s “hymns.” :nope:
:

For me, the Tridentine Mass of my youth just seems more spiritual and reverential–I read and contemplate the meaning of the liturgy instead of watching a show or engaging in feelgood histrionics and behaviour. Moreover, the Tridentine Mass makes it easier to see the connections to the Book of Revelations that Scott Hahn talks about so insightfully.

It’s true that in comparison to the N.O. the Tridentine Mass calls for little participation by the laity, but the Tridentine Mass seems to compensate for this “shortcoming” by forcing one to contemplate and focus on the meaning of Christ’s Holy Sacrifice in a way that the N.O. doesn’t.

 

[swampfox]

lily628:

My first inclination is to think, “How do you understand what is going on or what’s being said?” I am converting after going to a liturgical Episcopalian church for two years, and I still have trouble following the mass in English. (I’ve been attending mass since February at two different parishes due to moving home from college.) How do visitors hear the gospel and know what’s going on? How does anyone know what’s going on without knowing Latin?

Thanks and God bless!

Missals are in Latin and English and the readings and sermon are done in English–It’s easy to follow along and know what’s going on

 

[swampfox]

Melman:

I suppose after awhile the ritual becomes familiar, but unless one is willing to study Latin one can’t really understand. Therefore you had a lot of people saying their own private prayers until Communion time, and priests mumbling the prayers at breakneck speed.

Regarding your first sentence, it is easy to read and follow along with the liturgy in a Missal. Your second sentence brought back my memories as an altar boy when I observed some priests who did indeed mumble and rush through the liturgy at breakneck speed, so having the Tridentine Mass doesn’t guarantee that each priest will not abuse the liturgy. Nevertheless, these abuses were miniscule in comparison to what many priests are doing to the N.O.

 

[Brennan_Doherty]

Melman:

The reason the old Mass was revised during the 1960’s is due to concerns just like yours. No one knew Latin, therefore they didn’t really know what was going on since the entire Mass was in it. I suppose after awhile the ritual becomes familiar, but unless one is willing to study Latin one can’t really understand. Therefore you had a lot of people saying their own private prayers until Communion time, and priests mumbling the prayers at breakneck speed.

Good luck to you.

Back then, it was much more common, particularly at Catholic schools, to receive instruction in Latin.

Further, and I believe this is documented in “The Rhine Flows in to the Tiber” by Father Wittgen which reported on the Second Vatican Council, the Fathers of the Council literally laughed out loud when one of them said during the deliberations on the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy that they “had better watch it, or we’ll end up having the entire liturgy in the vernacular.”

Further, the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy from Vatican II says:

1. 1. Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites.
2. …Nevertheless steps should be taken so that the faithful may also be able to say or to sing together in Latin those parts of the Ordinary of the Mass which pertain to them.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/hist_...const_19631204_sacrosanctum-concilium_en.html

Most, if not all, of the Council Fathers never envisioned a Mass celebrated entirely in the vernacular.

Also, if one looks at statistics concerning things like belief in the Real Presence and Mass attendance one finds a significant drop after the introduction of the New Liturgy. This indicates that it is today, rather than before with the old liturgy, that quite a number of Catholics do not really understand what is going on at the Mass.

 

[JCPhoenix]

:clapping: I am SOOOOOOO happy the Tridentine Latin Mass (of the indult) is spreading in popularity in this country!!:dancing: I hope the Bishops continue to realize that for the MOST part, this is not because people are nostalgic about the past, but because they are tired of all the liturgical abuses: Clown Masses, liturgical dancers, ballons and party supplies in many Masses, priest telling jolks literally from the pulpit, 10 or more (usually ultra-feminists) extra-ordinary ministers of the Eucharist, who distribute while the pries/priests sit down and lead the pe ople in the pew in singing on Eagle’s Wings, or other 1970’s “hymns.” :nope:
Yes!! lets continue praying that God through Mary may bless the Catholic Church in the United States with EXCELLENT:clapping: Bishops such as His Excellency Charles Chaput of Denver, Colorado.:dancing: :bounce: :bowdown:

OK…I’m just going to put it out there. I have NO IDEA what you’re talking about, and maybe that’s a good thing. You tell me.

First of all, I understand the Latin Mass was done prior to Vatican II. I am a cradle Catholic and to my knowledge, I have never attended one, although my mother did and said they are beautiful.

Secondly…what’s up with these “clown masses” and “liturgical dancers”? I’ve never seen either, and although I’m grateful for that I would like to be in on the joke. (Sorry if I offended anyone, it just seems like a joke to me.)

Thirdly…what’s wrong with “On Eagles’ Wings?” I love that song, along with “We Have Been Told”, “For the Beauty of the Earth”, etc. Is it too secular? Your reference is to the 70’s and maybe I can help with my lack of understanding by telling you that I will soon be 30.

I’m really sorry, I’m just completely at a loss here because I’m entirely clueless. What is going on in this country that I haven’t seen in the several churches I have attended in the last several years???

VERY Confused*

 

[catholiclady]

Dear J.C. - if you go to St. Agnes you sure don’t have to worry about liturgical abuses but I don’t know about the rest of the Churches in your dioceses. There have been reported (and there are pictures on the net) of Masses with priests wearing clown noses or distributing baloons but this is an exception. That said, there are other liturgical abuses which are not as obvious but do occur and you only need read through any of the threads in this forum to see what they are.

I am sure, however, that there are some N.O. Masses without liturgical abuses and more in keeping with what was intended by Vatican II but I have only had the opportunity to attend a few of them myself. It all depends upon where you live or what parish you attend, I guess.

If you have ever watched a Mass on EWTN and your parish Mass is a lot like that, you don’t have to worry about abuses

 

[cristero]

Hi! I am new here, but wanted to ask a question. I heard from a friend of mine in Phoenix, who attended the first Latin Mass, that the Bishop was meeting with the Fraternity of St. Peter. It there any truth to that?

 

[deogratias]

To: Cistero

I have not heard that but it would not be unusual. Most of the priests who know how to celebrate the Traditional Latin Mass are now at an age of near or at retirement.
Although Canon Law requires Seminarians be well versed in Latin, many seminaries only offer one semester of Latin and that as an elective (in the U.S.) and even should a seminary teach Latin, they don’t teach the Tridentine Rite. So who will say these Masses. Aha.

The FFSP preists who have seminaries that teach the Tridentine Mass. So it is quite the norm when a Diocese has a regular approved Tridentine Mass to invite the FFSP priest to come and celebrate it on a regular basis.

It would seem to me that Phoenix being so new at having this Mass, it might be premature for these negotiations to be going on, however with such as turn out as posted here, that may not be the case as there may a waiting period of available FFSP priests.

Please keep us posted if your “friend in Phoenix” gets any more concrete information on this.

 

[aByzantineCatho]

Melman,

I have been reading your post for sometime now. I must ***** * **** *** **** ***********. Perhaps I just don’t know you and are taking what you say too literally. For a fellow Catholic you come across ****** *********. The Church is big enough to support a wide variety of Liturgical practices. Whether it is the Ethiopian Ge’ez rite or the Novus Ordo. Certainly those who wish to go to the Traditional Latin Mass have ever RIGHT to do so.

You stated, “I still don’t understand how they can deny communion-in-the-hand in the Tridentine mass - the church has said that it is a valid option, and it seems that the rite of mass shouldn’t matter”

Just for clarification communion in the hand was not approve in the United States until 1977. Many Bishops started the practice illicitly (remember a Bishop does not have the right to Add/Take Away anything from the Liturgy). Eventually, Rome gave in on the issue and decided to allow the practice. To this day many Bishops around the world forbid the practice (Spain I think is one of them). For the Eastern Rite, besides not be practical, the practice is unheard of.

For the indult the Traditional Mass is frozen in time. That means Altar girls are not allowed, etc…

You also said, “Pastor should be educating his flock about what the norms are, not secretly encouraging “the TLM fold” to do otherwise.” That is your opinion and you are entitled to it. However, might I add that many Post-Vatican II people are joining the TLM even teenagers! You might be interested in reading a new book:

THE NEW FAITHFUL: Why Young Adults are Embracing Christian Orthodoxy**
by Colleen Carroll**

---

Or you might read: Latin Mass attracting a younger generation of parishioners

home.hamptonroads.com/stories/story.cfm?story=63859&ran=142712

It is a weird phenomena happening in the Church today. Back to the Future!

God Bless!

 

[deogratias]

To: Byzantine Catholic

It is interesting that the very same people who support Communion in the Hand which is not the norm but an INDULT, object to the Indult Mass.
Some people do not have an understanding of canon law, of church history, etc. etc. but for this reason, they should reserve making judgments and assumptions until they have read and found the reasons. Forums can be real learning tools but only if one is willing to read and to listen and not be so anxious to jump in and offer opinions and make statements which are not valid.

I doubt very much if Mr. Melman realizes that communion in the Byzantine Church is by intinction and that levened bread may be used. What’s right for one rite, may not be for another and that is
what many fail to see.

 

[Iohannes]

At the TRaditional Latin Mass, Communion in the Hand is not allowed, that indult for that only applies to the Novus Ordo Missae.

 

[deogratias]

To whom was your post addressed Johannes?

I don’t see that anyone said that?

 

[system]

deogratias:

I doubt very much if Mr. Melman realizes that communion in the Byzantine Church is by intinction and that levened bread may be used. What’s right for one rite, may not be for another and that is
what many fail to see.

If you’re going to make comments about me, please address them to me. I am fully aware of intinction in the Byzantine rite, thank you.

And despite popular opinion, I don’t think you will find anyone who is objecting to the Indult Mass.

 

[deogratias]

Mr. Melman - my remarks to the Byzantine Catholic were actually in your defense, explaining that you might not be aware that what applies to one rite does not apply to another. I regret that you took offense by them rather than what I had intended to convey.

 

[Iohannes]

deogratias:

To whom was your post addressed Johannes?

I don’t see that anyone said that?

I was responding to this quote:

“I still don’t understand how they can deny communion-in-the-hand in the Tridentine mass - the church has said that it is a valid option, and it seems that the rite of mass shouldn’t matter”

 

[deogratias]

Ah yes as I was an as was Byzantine Catholic - but I seemed to have said something that upset the person who posted that.

Sometimes what is meant to unite ends up dividing. I think I read somewhere that the Bishop of Colorado Springs said, in regard to what the Church teaches about voting for Catholics who support abortion that “the truth is somewhat divisive”.

This may be a little off topic but I think we all, at some time, may not like hearing the truth if it steps on our comfort zone. Mea Culpa.