First Ever - Tridentine Mass in Phoenix, AZ -- Packed Standing Room Only

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deogratias:
Sometimes what is meant to unite ends up dividing. I think I read somewhere that the Bishop of Colorado Springs said, in regard to what the Church teaches about voting for Catholics who support abortion that “the truth is somewhat divisive”.

This may be a little off topic but I think we all, at some time, may not like hearing the truth if it steps on our comfort zone. Mea Culpa.
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Well, even Jesus said:
Mt.10:34 “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Lk.12:51 "Suppose ye that I am come to give peace on earth? I tell you, Nay; but rather division.

I must admit that I am now facing a good bit of discouragment whether to convert to Catholicism or not, based on what I’ve seen, heard and read of late.

Quite frankly I’m half-way tempted (tempted or being guided by the Holy Spirit?) to seek out and join a TLM parish, even if it is in schism… even (gulp) if it is SSPV or SSPX. I’m 30 miles from an indult TLM parish (only celebrated on Sunday at 11:00), 80 miles from a SSPV, and 150 miles from a SSPX. I’d rather drive the long distances than tolerate an NO parish where transubstantiation is not taking place.

I started going to a local parish a few months ago. I sorta liked it at first, it seemed not too far from Protestantism, but now after I’ve really started to study the faith, Im starting to notice things that the more I read tells me that something is really seriously wrong within the Catholic church.

After reading the book “Goodbye, Good Men” (which, by the way, is NOT written by a schismatic) I’m really discouraged by a lot of things, espcially the subculture of homosexuallity and heterodoxy that has infected the priesthood. I think I’d rather be in schism with Rome than in schism with Christ.

Still Roamin’… looking for the truth.
 
Roamin_Catholic,

I know how you feel and sympathize. The problem with SSPX is they are a contradicion: you can’t be so catholic that you break communion with the See of Peter. There are parallel groups in the orthodox as well. hocna.org/. We’re going through a purification. It’s going to take time for the church to fix itself. Have hope that the church will not fall away.

It’s lasted over 2000 years in spite of all the horrible bishops who have tried to destroy it. Just be thankful that the Latin Mass is back and don’t worry about all the goofy things the people in the church do. “Be a disciple and not a churchman” -Fr. Groshel
 
Roamin Catholic

Since there is a Tridentine Mass once a week that is closer than any Schismatic or Sedevac groups, wouldn’t that be the better choice just as a matter of logistics.

Then there are many other things to consider. Where will you be baptized Catholic - where will you go to a valid confession? (questions for you to ask yourself, not to answer me)

Remember that SSPX priests are valid priests but that their Masses while valid, are not licit Catholic Masses.

“I’d rather drive the long distances than tolerate an NO parish where transubstantiation is not taking place.”

Despite much of the SSPX rhetoric, the Odo Missae is a valid Mass and the consecration is valid and transubstation does take place.

Do be guided by the Holy Spirit but if you have so many doubts, I would not move too quickly in any direction.

If I may, I’d like to refer you to one of the better explainations of the SSPX issue written by a RC Priest.

forum.catholic.org/viewtopic.php?t=16201

I commesurate with those who go to SSPX Mass because no Tridentine Mass is available in their Diocese and had been tempted (but resisted) doing that myself at one time when I was in a Diocese that did not offer the Traditional Mass.

RIP Paul Johnson
 
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Flower_Charity:
Roamin_Catholic,

I know how you feel and sympathize. The problem with SSPX is they are a contradicion: you can’t be so catholic that you break communion with the See of Peter. There are parallel groups in the orthodox as well. hocna.org/.
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As much as I might disagree with the SSPX, any comparison between it and HOCNA is absolutely untenable. HOCNA is an extremist, fundamentalist, fringe sect within Orthodoxy that has no present ready comparison within Catholicism.
 
Swampfox, I too remember my days as altar boy before vatican 2. The latin mass was a jumble of words spoken too fast, and we really had to be on our toes with the responses. During the prayers at the foot of the altar, the priest could whip out the lords’ prayer in 20 seconds or less. My wife is a convert, and I’ve tried to explain how it was back in the latin days, and she said that if it was that way now, she probably wouldn’t have joined the church. We had a latin mass about 8 years ago, but there were so many negative comments, we never had another one. The modern mass can be just a beautiful as the latin mass.
 
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davy39:
Swampfox, I too remember my days as altar boy before vatican 2. The latin mass was a jumble of words spoken too fast, and we really had to be on our toes with the responses. During the prayers at the foot of the altar, the priest could whip out the lords’ prayer in 20 seconds or less. My wife is a convert, and I’ve tried to explain how it was back in the latin days, and she said that if it was that way now, she probably wouldn’t have joined the church. We had a latin mass about 8 years ago, but there were so many negative comments, we never had another one. The modern mass can be just a beautiful as the latin mass.
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I wonder why then there were so many more converts to the Catholic faith prior to the introduction of the New Mass? I am reminded of a quote in the book “A Crisis of Saints” by Fr. George Rutler (Ignatius Press). He states that we have lost countless potential converts because of the changes to the liturgy. Further, he was a priest at the time when people had to be reminded not to convert to Catholicism merely because of the beauty of the liturgy. He states those days are long gone now.

As far as beauty goes, I personally have never run into a beautiful novus ordo liturgy, particularly in the vernacular. Adequate? Yes. Beautiful? No. Many, many times merely mediocre.

Of course no one wants Priests racing through the Tridentine Mass. Fortunately, the indult Masses I have assisted at the Priest does not do that. And groups like the Fraternal Society of Saint Peter certainly are taught to celebrate the Tridentine Mass reverently.

God bless.
 
The Tridentine Mass celebrated in my area is always packed out with people standing on the steps and listening over a loudspeaker.

At one of the parishes we attend (N.O.M.), the children’s Mass is celebrated in the old chapel with an altar rail. I am so glad that my children have the opportunity to participate in this. (Me too!)
 
As much as I might disagree with the SSPX, any comparison between it and HOCNA is absolutely untenable. HOCNA is an extremist, fundamentalist, fringe sect within Orthodoxy that has no present ready comparison within Catholicism.
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I think the comparison is appropirate. Both broke away because of ecumenism and changes in the liturgy.

HOCNA: "This Synod follows the Julian Calendar and opposes all changes which are undertaken in the name of Ecumenism or Modernism"

Besides the Julian Calendar, they sound pretty much the same. Both reject modernism and ecumenism. Both are ultra-traditionalist who reject everything new. If you don’t see the similarities, I would like to see how your brain works.
 
Catholic_Girl 9:
I think the comparison is appropirate. Both broke away because of ecumenism and changes in the liturgy.

HOCNA: "This Synod follows the Julian Calendar and opposes all changes which are undertaken in the name of Ecumenism or Modernism"

Besides the Julian Calendar, they sound pretty much the same. Both reject modernism and ecumenism. Both are ultra-traditionalist who reject everything new. If you don’t see the similarities, I would like to see how your brain works.
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There is nothing wrong with rejecting both modernism and ecumenism. Infact, the SSPX are right to reject both modernism and ecumenism.

Read Pascendi Dominici Gregis
 
I am a Catholic, one who accepts the teachings of the Church and one who considers herself a traditionalist and attends a LICIT TLM Mass.

There is a part of me that commisurates with the delima that many SSPX people face, especially in areas where there is no licit TLM Mass BUT AND THIS IS A BIG BUT what I don’t understand are posts like the one above. This aggressive anti NOM attitude will only drive people further away from the TLM that the SSPX say is the only true Mass and that all should attend. Additionally it makes it very difficult for those of us who are traditionalists but want to be in full union with Rome.

If you really believe the TLM is the only Mass and that souls could not be saved without it, why would you want to alienate those same souls you could save - it’s just not a logical way to win friends and influence Catholics:rolleyes:

Besides it is pretty rude to just join, pop in here long enough to advertise a site and a book and then leave.
 
deogratias, I wonder if you have seen this article I happened to find today:thewandererpress.com/a5-27-2004.htm

Very disappointing (that even a licit TLM is insufficient for some people), but probably not surprising. It puts the entire TLM movement (is that the right term? I don’t know) in a poor light, and unfortunately there’s nothing you well-intentioned folks can really do about it.
 
Condsidering the source, The Remnant, I am not at all surprised. This paper is very extreme as are most of its devotees.

There has been a recent ongoing “battle” between the Wanderer and the Remnant. Interesting in that the so called “liberal” Catholics consider the Wanderer too Conservative and Orthodox for them while the Schismatics (who do not consider themselves to be schismatic by the way) and the Sedevacs - think the Wanderer too liberal because it supports valid NO Masses.

Both the Remnant article and the Wanderer article you sent were prior to the first Mass being celebrated.

Actually the Phoenix SSPX folks have been very supportive and noncritical even though the priest who said the Latin Mass last week took the opportunity to criticize them instead of giving a homily. Strange isn’t it that each considers the other a threat when unity is to be our goal and it is for the sake of unity, not division that JP II urged Bishops to allow the Tridentine Mass.

It is late in coming to the Phoenix Diocese and there will be much criticism from the extreme liberal Catholics and the extreme Traditionalists before all the dust clears. I for one praise Olmsted’s quick action in bringing this Mass to the Diocese as well as his already evident actions to set things straight regarding church teaching, correcting lilturgical error and strong pro-life stance.

The faithful sometimes grow impatient forgetting that change comes slowly to the Church and that it has still survived much worse than the recent sex scandals and liturgical abuse, and Christ has promised us it will be around for a long time. On the other hand, in God’s time, 2000 years is but a blink of the eye and with prayer and patience, we may be “one” again.

.
 
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deogratias:
It is late in coming to the Phoenix Diocese
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When I first “discovered” the existence of the TLM and did some reading about indults and so forth (about a year ago) I called the Phoenix Diocesan offices, to see if it was offered anywhere. I spoke directly to the head of the Office of Worship, who claimed to have no idea what I was even talking about. It was hard to believe then, and even harder now. Still, I wonder how much real (expressed) demand there was for it. I understand the crowd for it on Sunday has fallen off dramatically.
 
I am a Traditionalist, but I think the SSPX and Archbishop Lefebvre have done the Church a disfavor. The FSSP is offering the Traditional Sacrifice of the Mass in full union with Rome. They are loyal to the Holy Father, even as they recognize the problems in the Church.

The SSPX could do much good, but first they must seek to reconcile with the Pope. Otherwise, we are like Protestants. We must RESPECT and OBSERVE the authority, even when we disagree with it, as long as we are not directed to do something evil. That is why Archbishop Lefebvre was wrong to consecrate the Bishops. The Holy Father has shown that usually he will come around to accomodating people’s needs, even if sometimes the response seems slow. Probably, he would have approved the consecration of at least one Bishop. It had already been discussed. The Archbishop made a mistake.

Robert Sungenis has done an excellent series of articles, and answered many questions concerning why he believes that the actions of the Archbishop were schismatic and that the mentality of the SSPX is schismatic.

Traditionalists aren’t going to accomplish anything on the fringes of the Church. Everything must be done within the Church and under the rightful authorities.
Peace,
Ryan
 
Melman, why do you keep on attacking the TLM? You didnt grow up with it? Neither did I. I discovered it on my own, and I still attend the NO as well as the TLM. The fact that the Pheonix chancery offices were and still are dominated by liberals is one reason why many there have no idea what the TLM indult is.

As for attendence at the indult, while it fell off dramatically the next week, talking to people who attend there, it seems to have stablised at 400 or so people, a good base to work with. Also Melmen, 4 other “independent” parishes in the Pheonix area have 1,000-1,500 who attend these masses. It was the presence of these “independent” parishes being the reason why the indult was granted.
 
JNB - it was the attendance and support of so many of the “renegade” Traditionalists who broke the record. A few are still going to both the SSPX and the licit TLM, I guess they want to be sure it “takes”. I sure hope it does though it is bound to have its growing pains as priests either have to learn it for the first time or remember it from nearly 40 years ago when they last celebrated it (the one we had last week has been a priest for 50 years, celebrated the TLM 10 years) -

I am hoping one of these Sundays Melman will choose to join us at the TLM so he can experience it for himself. I have met some very nice people there already and lookin forward to TLM #5 in Phoenix this coming Sunday.
 
“Traditionalists aren’t going to accomplish anything on the fringes of the Church. Everything must be done within the Church and under the rightful authorities”

Servus Christi - you are both right and wrong. This is the right way to do it BUT in the atmosphere of this Diocese under the previous Bishop no amount of begging, coaxing and obvious desire on the part of people in this community could induce him to allow the TLM. The new Bishop, in less than 6 months, instituted it here and openly also said he hoped it would bring back some of the faithful who were attending the 3 ilicit Parishes regularly celebrating the TLM here in Phoenix.

I never went to one of those but was often tempted because they do provide more spirituality, (for me personally) than the NOM. I am happy we, (the Catholic Community of the Diocese of Phoenix) have the right to choose which Mass provides this for us.
 
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