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pacloc
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Edit, double post. It was a compliment by the way. Good night.
First Jehovah's witnesses to knock at my door
- Thread starter LaughingBoy1503
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Matt_Guitar_Man
Guest
Hi Logically,
A quick thought.
JW’s pride themselves on following the Bible exclusively right? And I have quite often heard the claim that they believe they follow the Bible more closely than any other denomination etc.
Could you please point out to me where in the Bible it states that the majority of Christ’s followers should participate in a ceremony where they actively and concisely reject Christ’s body and blood, which we call the Eucharist (The Bread & Wine). For the life of me I can not find where this is a written command for the faithful to follow in scripture?
Also I know of one other Church that also preforms this ceremony in a very similar way to the JW"s, I wonder if you can guess which one?
A quick thought.
JW’s pride themselves on following the Bible exclusively right? And I have quite often heard the claim that they believe they follow the Bible more closely than any other denomination etc.
Could you please point out to me where in the Bible it states that the majority of Christ’s followers should participate in a ceremony where they actively and concisely reject Christ’s body and blood, which we call the Eucharist (The Bread & Wine). For the life of me I can not find where this is a written command for the faithful to follow in scripture?
Also I know of one other Church that also preforms this ceremony in a very similar way to the JW"s, I wonder if you can guess which one?
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dronald
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I really wouldn’t jump to conclusions in what I believe. I would rather you explain what the official JW belief is.Ooh heck.
I can see this is going to be a knotty one.
Well, Revelation 4:11 says God (Jehovah) created all things. Genesis 1:1 of course says “God created the heavens and the earth.”
But you will no doubt immediately point out Jesus is described in Col. 1:16 as creating “all things in heaven and earth”. (except himself of course since he is called the firstborn of all creation. In the verse before.)
JW’s therefore conclude Jesus was used as a master worker by God to do this.
How do you understand those verses? That Jesus is therefore the same person as God? or his cheif agent in carrying out his purpose?
The First and the Last?
Both uses of this term are in Revelation I think. (correct me if there are other references.)
First, in Rev 1:17 , one who is obviously the resurrected Jesus says: “I am the first and the last, and the living one.”
Also in Rev 22:13, after again referring to himself as the Alpha and the Omega (First and last letters in Greek) Jehovah God adds the expression “The first and the last”.
So do you conclude that both Jehovah and Jesus using the same expression makes them the same person?
So did God create the Heavens and Earth through Jesus or did He do it alone? Also, who is the First and the Last?
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Hortenzie
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I’m pretty sure you mean Satanists. When I was JW and found out about it, it freaked me out. I did research on the subject and John 6:53 really settled the issue.
But to be fair I have to say that, even though the ceremonies might look similar outwardly, JW do not reject the bread and wine, they respect Jesus’s sacrifice, they just have a very different understanding as to who can partake.
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Hortenzie
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That might be difficult since JWs had been changing their beliefs quite often. A proccess that have been accelerating rapidly in last few years. And it must be hard to keep up with it. (Sarcasm intended)
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Matt_Guitar_Man
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if that is so? Then why do they all attend have the bread and wine passed to them then publicly reject it and then pass it on for the next person to do the same? Why not just watch those deemed fit to participate? Why go through the show of receiving it then passing it on?
One can explain it however they may like. The fact is all present are participating/partaking in this ceremony with most rejecting Christs body and blood.
no matter how one tries to wriggle out of this to the objective viewer it is a fairly obvious rittual that reinforcers their rejection of Christ.
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Logically
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Matt_Guitar_Man
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Hell at its most basic understanding is eternal separation from God. And last time I checked all and any separation from from God is torment. For me anyway.
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Porknpie
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Yes there is no greater torment than being separated from God and realizing that one did so to themselves. From the Catechism of the Catholic Church (on hell)
1033 We cannot be united with God unless we freely choose to love him. But we cannot love God if we sin gravely against him, against our neighbor or against ourselves: "He who does not love remains in death. Anyone who hates his brother is a murderer, and you know that no murderer has eternal life abiding in him."612 Our Lord warns us that we shall be separated from him if we fail to meet the serious needs of the poor and the little ones who are his brethren.613 To die in mortal sin without repenting and accepting God’s merciful love means remaining separated from him for ever by our own free choice. This state of definitive self-exclusion from communion with God and the blessed is called “hell.”
1034 Jesus often speaks of “Gehenna” of “the unquenchable fire” reserved for those who to the end of their lives refuse to believe and be converted, where both soul and body can be lost.614 Jesus solemnly proclaims that he "will send his angels, and they will gather . . . all evil doers, and throw them into the furnace of fire,"615 and that he will pronounce the condemnation: "Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire!"616
1035 The teaching of the Church affirms the existence of hell and its eternity. Immediately after death the souls of those who die in a state of mortal sin descend into hell, where they suffer the punishments of hell, "eternal fire."617 The chief punishment of hell is eternal separation from God, in whom alone man can possess the life and happiness for which he was created and for which he longs.
1036 The affirmations of Sacred Scripture and the teachings of the Church on the subject of hell are a call to the responsibility incumbent upon man to make use of his freedom in view of his eternal destiny. They are at the same time an urgent call to conversion: "Enter by the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is easy, that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. For the gate is narrow and the way is hard, that leads to life, and those who find it are few."618
Since we know neither the day nor the hour, we should follow the advice of the Lord and watch constantly so that, when the single course of our earthly life is completed, we may merit to enter with him into the marriage feast and be numbered among the blessed, and not, like the wicked and slothful servants, be ordered to depart into the eternal fire, into the outer darkness where "men will weep and gnash their teeth."619
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
1037 God predestines no one to go to hell;620 for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want “any to perish, but all to come to repentance”:621
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PRmerger
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Well, to be fair, you didn’t answer my question(s) either.
Hell is a place where God’s love shines eternally upon those who find it odious. As such, it is a place of torment for those who despise Love.
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dronald
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Let’s not beat around the bush here.
Taken from your Bible:
Rev 20:10**And the Devil who was misleading them was hurled into the lake of fire and sulfur, where both the wild beast+ and the false prophet already were;+ and they will be tormented* day and night forever and ever…
15**Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life+ was hurled into the lake of fire.
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Hortenzie
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You are wrong and you are judging (harshly) something you don’t understand and you are putting wrong motive in their hearts. But I really don’t care. I’m no longer JW and I’m not here to defend them but to tearn about the Catholic faith…
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Hortenzie
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Do you really take the whole book of Revelation literally?
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wcknight
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I don’t understand the hesitation here. Hell is a place of eternal damnation. Someone who rejects God to the very end, hates God and embraces evil will be cast into Hell. They do so with their own free will. They do not want to be with God in Heaven and they blame God for their own misdeeds.
Good people do not go to Hell plain and simple, and wicked folks do not go to Heaven. AS to what Hell is, who torments whom, who knows. Some say Satan created Hell and demons do the tormenting. The point is, it is a not a nice place to end up in. You may say God is too nice and loving to send anyone there, and some will agree with you that there really is no one in Hell, BUT are you willing to take that chance ?
We know God is love and pure good, BUT God is also infinitely just AND He allows everyone to choose freely where they end up. IF you hate God and do not want to be with HIm. He has to let you choose that no matter how insane or stupid that may be.
One of my favorite sayings is that God’s punishment for our sins, is to love us unconditionally. BUT we have free will to reject his mercy.
Although no one knows for certain who is in Hell if anyone, there have been several saints who have had visions of Hell, and according to them it is NOT empty AND it is a place or torment. Wishing it does not exists, does not make it go away.
Good people do not go to Hell plain and simple, and wicked folks do not go to Heaven. AS to what Hell is, who torments whom, who knows. Some say Satan created Hell and demons do the tormenting. The point is, it is a not a nice place to end up in. You may say God is too nice and loving to send anyone there, and some will agree with you that there really is no one in Hell, BUT are you willing to take that chance ?
We know God is love and pure good, BUT God is also infinitely just AND He allows everyone to choose freely where they end up. IF you hate God and do not want to be with HIm. He has to let you choose that no matter how insane or stupid that may be.
One of my favorite sayings is that God’s punishment for our sins, is to love us unconditionally. BUT we have free will to reject his mercy.
Although no one knows for certain who is in Hell if anyone, there have been several saints who have had visions of Hell, and according to them it is NOT empty AND it is a place or torment. Wishing it does not exists, does not make it go away.
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DelsonJacobs
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While it may be that Logically has not caught up to some of the other posts (unless he is ignoring them), but as I’ve brought out here just a few posts ago, the arguments Logically is using to defend his position no longer work–not according to the revised 2013 New World Translation.
Their teaching of the condition of the dead is now in question since the Governing Body has totally removed renderings Logically has been using to support his arguments.
Maybe if we give Logically a moment to catch up and consider these changes and the questions I’ve raised–and give him a chance to use his new Bible that now reads like ours–maybe there will be less hesitation, less debate, and more action.
For the first time this new JW Bible admits to activity coming from the common Grave of all humankind at Jonah 2:2. This opens a floodgate powerful enough to wash away all denial regarding the validity of the Catholic teaching on the afterlife.
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Matt_Guitar_Man
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Hortenzie I too have loved ones embroiled and deceived by the destructive teachings of the Watch Tower, it breaks my heart to see these decent and sincere people being so obviously coned. And yes they believe that they are participating in the last upper the way Jesus intended. However this does not make my observations wrong, and no I am not judging harshly, I am only describing what I see.
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Hortenzie
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Ok. I now understand why you’re saying what you’re saying. I certainly hope that your loved ones’s eyes will be opened. There are many who are leaving now because of all the changes the new Governing Body is making. And others will leave when 2014 is over and nothing happened…
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dronald
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Can you expand on what you mean by this please?
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Hortenzie
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I really can’t as there is no OFFICIAL teaching from the WT society on that and I do not want to state something that might be repeated incorrectly and thus be aiding in spreading rumors.
I was just trying to encourage Matt Guitar Man since many JW PRIVATELY put special emphasis on this year (there are reasons for it). And when nothing happens we may see quite a few leave that organization in the next few years.
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Matt_Guitar_Man
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Watch Tower literature is completely flooded with the reinterpretation of the founders (CT Russell) prophecy that Christ returned invisibly in 1875 or there about and that the world would end in 1914. After Russell’s death and the planet still being here this was reinterpreted by the second president (Judge Rutherford) That the generation that witnessed the events of 1914 would not pass away before the end of this system of things. As this generation grew older and older with no end of the world in sight in 1995 a fairly lame attempt to change the definition of the word “Generation” was undertaken by the governing body to include future generations into the mix.
I don’t know how this knew interpretation is going with the rank and file however if one picks up nearly any literature from the WT printed over the last 50 or 60 years this prophecy is plainly and clearly there to see, the most damming one for the WT is in the pioneers hand book “Reasoning from the Scriptures” under the heading Dates. It is clear and easy for all to see in unambiguous plain English.
Some die hard Witnesses have there for placed an undue importance on 2014 as a cut off point for this prophecy to be fulfilled which puzzle’s me because how could you witness the events of 1914 if you were only 6 month’s old?
However it would seem that with what I have been reading about the release of the revised New World Translation it would appear that the Watch Tower is actually reinterpreting a lot of their teachings to conform with more Orthodox views which to me appears to be an attempt at damage control over yet another failed prophecy in an effort to stem the potential loss of income from the cash cow they have built up over the last 100 years.
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