First Jehovah's witnesses to knock at my door

[kimg901]

I agree about false doctrines. But my point was if it’s just to spark that inner self to learn of God more, then this is good. It’s a start of a new journey. I wasn’t Catholic when I started either, but God led me. I’d rather see Catholics (House Volunteer Team) go door to door so the correct doctrine is shared though with joy, not because of assigned work to be in good standing.

We’re generally - though not all the time - a growing sedentary church, at least in the US culture, but we can change that, or the Holy Spirit can get us going again like on Pentecost.

Now that I can agree on. It does spark an interest in ones own church when hearing someone else.

 

[Logically]

Yes. If you click on the link on my previous post it will take you to the thread in which we were discussing. I didn’t see the answer. Let me know if you did answer.

Thanks.

Well since you insist, but I hope I don’t offend.
I think the question you mean is this: From our previous discussion:

So why is it that JWs consider me to be worshiping the crucifix when I bow down to it or worshiping the flag when I salute it even when the contexts has been clarified by myself and continually refused by all JWs?

The Bible says:

*“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

Surely crucifixes and flags would be included in these. And notice it doesn’t even use the word “worship.” Just “bow down to them”
What did Jesus and his disciples think of this? Did they bow or salute symbols or icons? Here is a quote form a scholar named McClintock:

“Images were unknown in the worship of the primitive Christians . . . The admission of images into the church in the 4th and 5th centuries was justified on the theory that the ignorant people could learn the facts of Christianity from them better than from sermons or books.”— Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong, Volume 4, pages 503 and 504.

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t think it right.

 

[PRmerger]

Well since you insist, but I hope I don’t offend.
I think the question you mean is this: From our previous discussion:

So why is it that JWs consider me to be worshiping the crucifix when I bow down to it or worshiping the flag when I salute it even when the contexts has been clarified by myself and continually refused by all JWs?

The Bible says:

*“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

Surely crucifixes and flags would be included in these. And notice it doesn’t even use the word “worship.” Just “bow down to them”
.

Do you think that what Jesus is doing here is wrong–is he not bowing before a rock?

http://www.holyspiritinteractive.net/interactive/prayer.jpg

Also, are you aware the God commanded statues to be carved, just 5 chapters after the verse in Exodus you cited?

[BIBLEDRB]Exodus 25:18-20[/BIBLEDRB]

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

J W’s are after the ignorant, vulnerable and naïve. If you want them to move on from your doorstep all one has to do is display even a pedestrian knowledge of the subject matter being discussed and they will be off lickety split.
As the original poster stated this can be quite disappointing however it does go to show how they are not exactly honest when they open the conversation by wanting to discuss the bible? The truth is they don’t really want to discuss the bible at all, what they really want to do is recruit another travelling sales person for head office back in Brooklyn.

2 Peter 2- 1 But there were also false prophets among the people, even as there shall be lying teachers among you, who shall bring in sects of perdition, and deny the Lord who bought them, bringing upon themselves swift destruction.

2 And many shall follow their luxuries, through whom the way of truth shall be blasphemed:

3 And through covetousness with feigned words they shall make merchandise of you:

I like verse 3 here from the DR. “Through their greed they will make merchandise out of you”. Something to ponder the next time you see a JW out there flogging those comic books which they have already purchased from head office and will then try and get a donation for and also turn this over to head office, and then be required to fill out a time sheet so head office can see weather or not that are " Of good standing " in the faith.
If that is not being made merchandise of I don’t know what is?

 

[adf417]

Well since you insist, but I hope I don’t offend.
I think the question you mean is this: From our previous discussion:

So why is it that JWs consider me to be worshiping the crucifix when I bow down to it or worshiping the flag when I salute it even when the contexts has been clarified by myself and continually refused by all JWs?

Yes it is and here again is where it comes from so you can get the context of “contexts”
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?p=11488283#post11488283
You mentioned in post #12 “the context must be considered” which we both agree. So within context, as I asked in post #11 & 15…

So which is it - bowing to the pope or crucifixes is not worship or those that bowed to Jesus was worship?

The Bible says:

*“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

Surely crucifixes and flags would be included in these. And notice it doesn’t even use the word “worship.” Just “bow down to them”

Sure, if the context is worship

What did Jesus and his disciples think of this? Did they bow or salute symbols or icons?

They did bow to Jesus in the few scriptures I quoted on the other thread which was the origin of this discussion so do you not see a double standard here?

Here is a quote form a scholar named McClintock:

*“**Images were unknown in the worship of the primitive Christians ***. . . The admission of images into the church in the 4th and 5th centuries was justified on the theory that the ignorant people could learn the facts of Christianity from them better than from sermons or books.”— Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong, Volume 4, pages 503 and 504.

Catholics like to use all of our senses to experience and worship God. If Images, art, architecture, incense, bells… brings someone closer to God how can that be bad? God understood our human senses enough to have things such as the tabernacle and the temple designed with such beauty and awe. Sure, if the people worshiped these things then that would obviously be idolatry but again, lets put it in context, right?

Peace!!!

 

[PRmerger]

So which is it - bowing to the pope or crucifixes is not worship or those that bowed to Jesus was worship?

Wow. Good question.

They did bow to Jesus in the few scriptures I quoted on the other thread which was the origin of this discussion so do you not see a double standard here?

This does seem to pose a dilemma to the JWs.

 

[adf417]

Wow. Good question.

accolades from the great PR! :bowdown:

I sure hope we get a good answer.

 

[PRmerger]

accolades from the great PR! :bowdown:

shaw:

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

Oh shame. Sorry you are disappointed.
You can ask me some questions if you like! I am one of Jehovah’s Wintess’. But so long as they are “not in a mean way.” (to quote your cool post) Ha!

Hello and thank you. I understand some differences in what JWs believe and what The Catholic Church Teaches. I have no interest in JW Bible interpretations. Obviously, Our two churches can look at The same Bible verse and come out with two different meanings.

What sets The JW organization apart from all of the many other "denominations’ that claims to be The True restoration of The early Church? Does it only come down to that The JW organization believes that only it interprets scripture correctly? Are there other reasons/examples that you can give me?

Also, does The Watch Tower teach that The JWS were still around after the church went apostate? For example… were they still around only in very small numbers? Does written history record any groups, who were separate from The Catholic Church throughout the last 2000 years, who The JWS consider to be closest to The JW religion? Or did the people who follow and believe the early Church teachings cease to exist until the 1800’s? I wont sugar coat it. I am going to disagree with your answer! But I think you know that LOL. But I am curious as to your point of view and just because we disagree does not mean we cannot agree to disagree and still be civil while talking to each other. I am sure we are both all about peace and love.

 

[Mike_Wright]

i wouldn’t worry about it too much. doen’st seem like she was trying that hard either. usually jws are pretty anticatholic and really difficult to talk to. it’s not the same as protestants because they consider them restored with a different prophet. same with lds and sda. you can’t just use the bible. i haven’t relaly figured out a good way to do it. they basically thik the church went apostate right after it started so history doesn’t really work so well either.

I witness to Catholics, JWs, LDS as well as the un-churched. The first thing you need to do is be born again. Then find a Bible preaching church, (the Catholic Church isn’t one of them according to their own Catechism) then read God’s Word. When you know God and what He wants from you telling others about Him using His Word will come easy to you.

Thanks
Mike

 

[PRmerger]

I witness to Catholics, JWs, LDS as well as the un-churched. The first thing you need to do is be born again.

All Catholics are born again, Mike.

Then find a Bible preaching church, (the Catholic Church isn’t one of them according to their own Catechism) then read God’s Word.

Any Bible preaching church?

I’m pretty sure JWs say that they preach from the Bible.

When you know God and what He wants from you telling others about Him using His Word will come easy to you.

Thanks
Mike

Amen! This is very Catholic!

 

[Porknpie]

Any Bible preaching church?:

I wonder if he knows that us Catholics have four readings from the bible at every
Mass on Sunday and three during days of the week? One will hear 25 different bible readings every week if you attend daily Mass.

We can see back in Acts 20, the connection between the Homily and the Breaking of the Bread, yet many Protestants have abandoned scripture and don’t meet for the breaking of the bread, and fewer still believe in the Real Presence, a departure from the apostolic faith.

7 When the new week began, we had met for the breaking of bread, and Paul was preaching to them; he meant to leave them next day, and he continued speaking till midnight.

 

[Pepband_Mom]

following from Fr Paul Newton UK podcast from iTunes Podcast Religious section.

First offer a beverage with a big smile & offer them to have a seat; then ask this as is a most critical issue with groups like this is re: Authority:

What happened prior to 1879 when Russell founded their organization: in 1812, 1517, 516? Did God abandon the Christian world for soooo long? (We’re hit with Americans ex. Smith, Russell, White arriving very late on the scene to bail out the world! Really? How could a loving God ignore so many souls for 1900 years?)

If 2 of you disagree on an issue, where do you go to resolve your dispute? If elders is 1st answer, well, elders can disagree so who then? If Governing Body next answer, can they make mistakes? (my words: I have many JW books if you go to different editions that say polar opposite meaning of same sentence; some cases have even tweaked it back & forth; the men of Sodom is an example). So if GB gives a teaching, do you believe it no matter what? Can GB make mistakes? (see their books & changes) So, in the end if one has to pray about whether to accept their teaching, then congrats, YOU have made yourself your own POPE & you have become what you DISLIKE! Do you know what you are saying?

1. if they answer at any point “well, we could be wrong!” That is the bottom line. They come & ask me to believe something based on doubt and could be "wrong". You have at this point offered your home, beverage, loving time & they offer DOUBT? Sorry, I trust in God and His Church and His Word which is Rock Solid! If they want to know more, come back next week!

(my thought here: for ex. I have 2 JW Bibles that say this about Jn 1:1…the Word was a god" (NWT) and “…the Word was God” (Byington edition published by WTBTS in the 80’s). I just have to point out a couple changes in the Book of John & there it is: DOUBT! So who resolves this doubt, it’s there in print & *again *I have many examples of what they have printed & changed. How could GB make such critical errors in the first place?- sounds confused to me & confusion is not of God. Discussing Mary, the Saints, hell, etc. Is MOOT; doesn’t matter at this point. Where did the basis for their existence, WHO established their Authority?).

Finally, offer to pray together with them & tell them you love them. Jesus Christ wished we should all be one didn’t He. Chances are they’ll pray just like us! Let them know that.

At the most fundamental level IF they see their concept of Authority is flawed (to my estimation it is indeed that), you’ve planted a seed; hard to make the 800 lb. gorilla in the room go away! We are called to be seed planters; the Holy Spirit will do as He will

 

[PRmerger]

following from Fr Paul Newton UK podcast from iTunes Podcast Religious section.

First offer a beverage with a big smile & offer them to have a seat; then ask this as is a most critical issue with groups like this is re: Authority:

What happened prior to 1879 when Russell founded their organization: in 1812, 1517, 516? Did God abandon the Christian world for soooo long? (We’re hit with Americans ex. Smith, Russell, White arriving very late on the scene to bail out the world! Really? How could a loving God ignore so many souls for 1900 years?)

If 2 of you disagree on an issue, where do you go to resolve your dispute? If elders is 1st answer, well, elders can disagree so who then? If Governing Body next answer, can they make mistakes? (my words: I have many JW books if you go to different editions that say polar opposite meaning of same sentence; some cases have even tweaked it back & forth; the men of Sodom is an example). So if GB gives a teaching, do you believe it no matter what? Can GB make mistakes? (see their books & changes) So, in the end if one has to pray about whether to accept their teaching, then congrats, YOU have made yourself your own POPE & you have become what you DISLIKE! Do you know what you are saying?

1. if they answer at any point “well, we could be wrong!” That is the bottom line. They come & ask me to believe something based on doubt and could be "wrong". You have at this point offered your home, beverage, loving time & they offer DOUBT? Sorry, I trust in God and His Church and His Word which is Rock Solid! If they want to know more, come back next week!
   (my thought here: for ex. I have 2 JW Bibles that say this about Jn 1:1…the Word was a god" (NWT) and “…the Word was God” (Byington edition published by WTBTS in the 80’s). I just have to point out a couple changes in the Book of John & there it is: DOUBT! So who resolves this doubt, it’s there in print & *again *I have many examples of what they have printed & changed. How could GB make such critical errors in the first place?- sounds confused to me & confusion is not of God. Discussing Mary, the Saints, hell, etc. Is MOOT; doesn’t matter at this point. Where did the basis for their existence, WHO established their Authority?).

Finally, offer to pray together with them & tell them you love them. Jesus Christ wished we should all be one didn’t He. Chances are they’ll pray just like us! Let them know that.

At the most fundamental level IF they see their concept of Authority is flawed (to my estimation it is indeed that), you’ve planted a seed; hard to make the 800 lb. gorilla in the room go away! We are called to be seed planters; the Holy Spirit will do as He will

:bowdown::clapping:

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Well since you insist, but I hope I don’t offend.
I think the question you mean is this: From our previous discussion:

So why is it that JWs consider me to be worshiping the crucifix when I bow down to it or worshiping the flag when I salute it even when the contexts has been clarified by myself and continually refused by all JWs?

The Bible says:

*“You must not make for yourself a carved image or a form like anything that is in the heavens above or that is on the earth underneath or that is in the waters under the earth. You must not bow down to them nor be induced to serve them, because I Jehovah your God am a God exacting exclusive devotion.” *(Exodus 20:4, 5)

Surely crucifixes and flags would be included in these. And notice it doesn’t even use the word “worship.” Just “bow down to them”
What did Jesus and his disciples think of this? Did they bow or salute symbols or icons? Here is a quote form a scholar named McClintock:

“Images were unknown in the worship of the primitive Christians . . . The admission of images into the church in the 4th and 5th centuries was justified on the theory that the ignorant people could learn the facts of Christianity from them better than from sermons or books.”— Cyclopedia of Biblical, Theological, and Ecclesiastical Literature, by McClintock and Strong, Volume 4, pages 503 and 504.

Jehovah’s Witnesses don’t think it right.

[8] And the Lord said to him: Make brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: whosoever being struck shall look on it, shall live. [9] Moses therefore made a brazen serpent, and set it up for a sign: which when they that were bitten looked upon, they were healed. numbers 21
So shortly after that commandment God then had them make an image. Hmmm Maybe the commandment was not so much about the statue? Also look at Exodus about the building of the Ark of the Covenant.

 

[oneGODoneCHURCH]

Logically, paintings images have been used since the very beginning of the faith. What I have heard called the Jesus Fish found from first century to going back into Pre Christian era as I have shown above. Please remove the blinders that the watchtower have placed upon you.

 

[SunriseMarian]

Read the following books:

sunrisemarian.com/product/Beginning-Apologetics-2-Answer-Jehovah-s-Witnesses-and-Mormons.html

and

www.sunrisemarian.com/product/Answering-Jehovah-s-Witnesses.html

They will help you out a lot.

God bless.

 

[Missian_Alyssa]

It is my experience that they are more likely to take an audio cd at the door then a book with the cover page on it. These they can listen to while driving to work and toss before someone in the Kingdom Hall reports them.

The other thing I do is ask for their own address and phone number — never email to avoid them from copying and pasting. If they are coming to your door when you are busy, why not visit them at their home on an agreed upon time.

 

[Theresaj]

For quite awhile we had a couple of Witnesses who came by our house regularly, as my husband is unfailingly polite. Eventually, one Saturday, I asked if they believed in the Trinity and was told they did not. I then explained that God must have sent them to our door in order to save their souls, not mine…and they never came back. I was much younger and meaner then, but it did solve the problem of my husband hiding in the back of the house and sending me out to tell them he wasn’t home.

 

[Logically]

…
Also, does The Watch Tower teach that The JWS were still around after the church went apostate? For example… were they still around only in very small numbers? Does written history record any groups, who were separate from The Catholic Church throughout the last 2000 years, who The JWS consider to be closest to The JW religion? Or did the people who follow and believe the early Church teachings cease to exist until the 1800’s?

…I am curious as to your point of view and just because we disagree does not mean we cannot agree to disagree and still be civil while talking to each other…

Hello.
First can i apologize for not answering a week ago (like when you asked the question) I am slack at logging on, and JW posts always attract a lot of comment, so when I do log on I find a dozen messages and am overwhelmed! Sorry.

Hey, i really like your question about:
“does The Watch Tower teach that The JWS were still around after the church went apostate?”

Can I quote a recent Watchtower magazine on that? :

In a parable, Jesus indicated that from the first century onward, there would always be some genuine anointed Christians on the earth. He compared them to “wheat” growing among “weeds.” (Matt. 13:30) Of course, we cannot say for certain which individuals or groups belonged to the anointed wheat class, but we can confirm that there have always been some who have courageously defended God’s Word and exposed the church’s unscriptural teachings. (WT 2012 1/15, pg 7.)

So Jesus said there would be “wheat and weeds” growing together. He was talking about his true followers and those who were counterfeit. Both at the same time!
Matthew 13:24-30 is where he gives the illustration. Then the disciples ask him to explain and he does from verses 36-43. It is a very interesting read!

So, Jehovah’s Witnesses strongly believe this prophecy came true. Certainly there have always been ones who have loved truth and tried their best to proclaim it. Often they have been fiercely persecuted for this.
Yet as the scriptures say, it wouldn’t be until the “conclusion of the system” that these would clearly be identifiable and separated from the false.

There you go! Disagree away my friend.