First Jehovah's witnesses to knock at my door

[LaughingBoy1503]

I found the post!

OK. Now what about these failed predictions and dates?

Sure the JW’s are preaching the system will soon end and the Kingdom will take over, but haven’t they pointed at particular years in the past and been proved wrong?
My answer: “Sort of.”

First may I say that JW’s are not “inspired” by God. They have repeatedly said this.

So Charles Taze Russell was not visited by an Angel. No one received a divine vision. No one came out of a trance and said: “Wow, I understand the entire Bible all of a sudden.”

The early name of JW’s (until the 1930’s) was simply: “The Bible students.” The name says it all.
They studied the Bible passionately and wrote about what they learned.

And in the late 19th and early 20th century they learned heaps! Each time they discovered something new they made changes to what they believed.
(The ridiculous alternative would be to keep believing something they had come to realise was false )

Even the apostles had wrong expectations at times. Acts 1:6 shows they thought the Kingdom was about to be established in 33 AD, and still had this idea it was on earth!
That didn’t mean they were the wrong religion or that Jesus wasn’t using them.

1914 was something the JW’s spotted.

Daniel foretold a time period (connected to God’s kingdom) that would end. The JW’s calculations showed this period would end in 1914.
(Here is a link to the explanation of where that date comes from.) jw.org/en/publications/books/bible-teach/1914-a-significant-year-in-bible-prophecy/

Of course 1914 was one of the turning points of world history.

1914 was the beginning of the last days, not the end!

Imagine if, in the years leading up to the 9/11 terror attacks, a group had been proclaiming that “a bomb is going to destroy the Empire state building in late 2001!”

• Would we now dismiss them as “false prophets” because of the details they got wrong? Or would we seriously consider what else they think is going to happen in the future?

1914 was the beginning of the last days. Everything that has happened since proves that.

The JW’s were right, they just didn’t have all the details or the correct understanding of its significance .

I would have never though that it is a JW belief that the JW religion is not “God inspired” But simply a group of “Bible students” Well that even further kind of reinforces my question about “Why The JW religion interpretations of scripture and not one of the other restoration movements”? And you kind of answered another one of my questions indirectly about authority. It sounds like you yourself are saying “The JW religion has no God given authority.” Also if it started out just as a group of 'Bible students" then it cannot trace itself back to any of the movements that were opposed The Catholic Church throughout the ages. And if the JW religion is not “God inspired” Then cant some of its Bible interpretations be incorrect? Remember, you also told me that you are not so arrogant to say that only the JW religion teaches scripture correctly?

About everything that has happened since 1914 proving that that was the beginning of the last days… the only real unique thing I can think of is the restoration of Israel as a nation. There have been wars and natural disasters and disease that have wiped out millions of people, since the beginning. The last 100 years is not unique in those ways. I would be most interested to hear your thoughts on these things. But, if you care to answer some of the other posts first, I will be patient. Take care and God bless

 

[DelsonJacobs]

One difference that the mainstream churches almost never mention is “the last days.”…

Another Bible teaching that most religions don’t mention is this: The world is currently ruled by Satan.

In apologetics we call these statements “using the straw-man approach.”

How do you demonstrate your strength? By performing some feat of strength, like lifting a heavy weight. Some might do it by showing how well they can knock a big and strong man down.

Though this might look impressive, what happens when you find out that the heavy weight wasn’t heavy at all or that the big, strong man took a purposeful dive to make it look like he was toppled over. Not very impressive. Not very strong. Quite dishonest, wouldn’t you say?

A “straw man fallacy” or “straw man argument” is one where someone tries to proves how knowledgeable they are by arguing over an issue that is a misrepresentation to begin with.

For example, the argument that “mainstream churches almost never mention…the last days.” Is this true? No evidence is presented to prove this claim. Does Logically know this by experience? Can he cite examples where he has collected data from churches to make this claim in the first place?

Of course not. The argument begins with a misrepresentation of what other religions teach. I don’t recall my own Church neglecting to keep this subject very much alive and in front of me. In fact we just finished the season of Advent–and one of its main themes is the coming of Christ and the Last Days. I’m sure people of other Christian religions can also cite their own examples.

The other point he argues is both a presumption and one that many don’t agree is valid in the first place: “Most religions don’t mention…[t]he world is currently ruled by Satan.”

Really? Again where’s the proof that other churches don’t mention this? What if the other church doesn’t believe this? What then? Where is the evidence showing that mentioning this subject is a requisite of true religion? None of that necessary foundation is presented.

Some religions, like the Catholic Church, believe that only that part of society that rejects God is ruled by Satan. And even that rulership is superficial since Jesus announced: “All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.”–Matthew 28:18.

It’s easy to argue points that are fabricated, have no evidence or support to them. They are like scarecrows, filled with straw, easy to knock over. The use of this technique is nothing but dishonest theatrics, like someone who makes claims to strength but only lifts empty objects and knocks over big men who are paid off to take a tumble.

Sure it looks like you can prove your points, but when your points aren’t established as true in the first place it’s easy to say anything about them.

If I made a man out of straw I could knock him over too. But that wouldn’t prove I could knock over a real man, does it?

 

[Porknpie]

Thank you for your answers. They are very interesting indeed but I have a few comments on a few things your wrote. Remember, the point of my questions being why I should take The JW religion seriously, and why are they different from the other Restoration movements.

I do not know how much interaction you have had with people of other denominations in the protestant world, but a belief and constant talking about “The end of days” and us being in “The last days” and “A end to it all and a new kingdom coming” is nowhere near only a JW thing or even close to being something that other denominations “hardly talk about”, as you have said. Nor is talk about Satan. What gives you that impression? No disrespect at all… You know I appreciate your kindness here so I do not at all intend to offend you but In my experience with Protestant tradition, I saw a big obsession with “The end of time” In fact, I can remember my Grandmother telling me, when I was a little boy, that “We are living in the last days” and she even went as far as to be more specific about how soon into the last days we were. She told me that she heard a minister say that “He could feel that it would be less than 20 years away” Now, this was probably in the early 90s. But I grew up thinking that I would most likely not live to see adulthood because Jesus was coming back soon.

I read a Seventh Day Adventist book (before I became Catholic) about the last days. They also believe we are in “The last days” and the book outlined how “The last days of the last days” would be. At least from the seventh day Adventist point of view. Like I said before, they have various “theories” about the end of days. A sect called “The house of YHWH” Is extremely obsessed with the last days and preach how it is all going to end soon in a nuclear holocaust. Even “The westboro Baptist Church” seems to believe that theirs is the last generation. I saw a documentary about them and the young girls, when asked why they don’t ever want to get married, answered that These are the last days so marriage is not important. In other words… They were implying that Jesus was going to come back sometime in their lifetime. And I know, from my own experience, this is not unique to only the JW religion. So, in my view and experience, a lot of newer movement “Tick all those boxes”

Now… on to your other post. I will re-read it again first.

For Logically’s benefit, as Catholic’s we believe that we ARE living in the “last days”, but the “Last Day’s” refer to the era of The Church for the last 2,000 years. Scripture also clearly says that no one knows the day or hour. I think we can reasonably say that know one knows the year either. That the JW’s have gotten this wrong over, and over and over shows that they have created a “new gospel”, which we are warned of in Galatians 1:8.

Below from CatholicEducation.org

Are we, as many Christians believe, living in the last days? In fact, the “last days” refers not only to the “end of time,” but to the last two thousand years. Scripture teaches that the Incarnation ushered in “the last days.” According to Hebrews 1:1-2, “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”

At Pentecost, Peter preached that “the last days” had arrived, in fulfillment of the words of the prophet Joel: “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, that I will pour forth my spirit on all mankind . . .” (Acts 2:15-17; cf. Joel 2:28-32).

“The last days” or “the end times,” properly understood, refers to the time of the New Covenant, the gathering together of God’s people in the Church, which is “on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom” (CCC 567, 669; Lumen Gentium) . The Holy Spirit, the “soul of the Church,” has been — and is being — poured out, because of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ:

The Holy Spirit is at work with the Father and the Son from the beginning to the completion of the plan for our salvation. But in these “end times,” ushered in by the Son’s redeeming Incarnation, the Spirit is revealed and given, recognized and welcomed as a person. Now can this divine plan, accomplished in Christ, the firstborn and head of the new creation, be embodied in mankind by the outpouring of the Spirit: as the Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting (CCC 686).

This understanding of the “last days” differs from that of those who believe in the Rapture. Catholics agree that there will definitely be an “end of time” and that history as we know it will one day be complete. But we also recognize that each of us will face the end of our time on earth, and that this should, in many ways, concern us more than the end of the world (see CCC 1007).​

PnP

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

For Logically’s benefit, as Catholic’s we believe that we ARE living in the “last days”, but the “Last Day’s” refer to the era of The Church for the last 2,000 years. Scripture also clearly says that no one knows the day or hour. I think we can reasonably say that know one knows the year either. That the JW’s have gotten this wrong over, and over and over shows that they have created a “new gospel”, which we are warned of in Galatians 1:8.

Below from CatholicEducation.org

Are we, as many Christians believe, living in the last days? In fact, the “last days” refers not only to the “end of time,” but to the last two thousand years. Scripture teaches that the Incarnation ushered in “the last days.” According to Hebrews 1:1-2, “God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.”

At Pentecost, Peter preached that “the last days” had arrived, in fulfillment of the words of the prophet Joel: “For these men are not drunk, as you suppose, for it is only the third hour of the day; but this is what was spoken of through the prophet Joel: ‘And it shall be in the last days,’ God says, that I will pour forth my spirit on all mankind . . .” (Acts 2:15-17; cf. Joel 2:28-32).

“The last days” or “the end times,” properly understood, refers to the time of the New Covenant, the gathering together of God’s people in the Church, which is “on earth, the seed and the beginning of the kingdom” (CCC 567, 669; Lumen Gentium) . The Holy Spirit, the “soul of the Church,” has been — and is being — poured out, because of the redemptive work of Jesus Christ:

The Holy Spirit is at work with the Father and the Son from the beginning to the completion of the plan for our salvation. But in these “end times,” ushered in by the Son’s redeeming Incarnation, the Spirit is revealed and given, recognized and welcomed as a person. Now can this divine plan, accomplished in Christ, the firstborn and head of the new creation, be embodied in mankind by the outpouring of the Spirit: as the Church, the communion of saints, the forgiveness of sins, the resurrection of the body, and the life everlasting (CCC 686).

This understanding of the “last days” differs from that of those who believe in the Rapture. Catholics agree that there will definitely be an “end of time” and that history as we know it will one day be complete. But we also recognize that each of us will face the end of our time on earth, and that this should, in many ways, concern us more than the end of the world (see CCC 1007).​

PnP

Thank you. Yes, I forgot to mention that indeed we, as Catholics, believe it is the last days. Also that Satan is in the world and working hard to destroy Gods Church and all in it. I think the Catholic approach to it all is more a long the lines of “If you stay ready, you do not have to get ready.” We know the end is coming and we do not know when, so we stay prepared. The homilies I have heard, that I can remember, regarding the last days have always been something a long the lines of “No need to obsess over the last days. Nobody knows when they will come. Just stay ready”

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

Ahhh Logically,
Where do I Begin?
I can think of a couple of things that make the Witnesses unique. However we will get to that later.

1. The main stream church’s almost never mention the last days?

The following is from the Didache (meaning rule or standard):
16:1 Watch over your life, that your lamps are never quenched, and that your loins are never unloosed. Be ready, for you do not know on what day your Lord is coming.
16:2 Come together often, seeking the things that are good for your souls. A life of faith will not profit you if you are not made perfect at the end of time.
16:3 For in the last days false prophets and corrupters will be plenty, and the sheep will be turned into wolves, and love will be turned into hate.
16:4 When lawlessness increases, they will hate and persecute and betray one another, and then the world-deceiver will appear claiming to be the Son of God, and he will do signs and wonders, and the earth will be delivered into his hands, and he will do iniquitous things that have not been seen since the beginning of the world.
16:5 Then humankind will enter into the fire of trial, and many will be made to stumble and many will perish; but those who endure in their faith will be saved from under the curse itself.
16:6 And then the signs of the truth will appear: the first sign, an opening of the heavens; the second sign, the sounding of the trumpet; and the third sign, the resurrection of the dead—
16:7 not of every one, but as it is said: “Then the Lord my God will come, and all the holy ones with him.”
16:8 Finally, “Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven’ with power and great glory.”

Although the exact date of this text is unkown there is strong evidence to suggest it was written in the first generation of the church, we know it was widely circulated (Eusubias) and was quoted by people such as Polycarp.

Apostles Creed (excerpt)-" He is seated at the right hand of the Father from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead". We know that this confession of faith was being recited in the Church from the early 2nd century.

Nicene Creed (excerpt)- “He will come in glory to judge the living and the dead and his Kingdom will have no end”…“We look for the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come”. This has been recited in the Church since the mid 4th century.

The Church has been “mentioning” the last days since it’s inception. The Nicene Creed has been said in the Church every Sunday for around about 1700 years, I grew up reciting the Nicene Creed every Sunday, and yes we were taught what it meant. Previously to this the Apostles Creed was recited, and Previously to that the Didache was read.
The teaching and preaching of the last days is hardly something the Witnesses can claim is unique to them, and to do so, is either sheer ignorance or blatant, arrogant dishonesty. I mean I haven’t even mentioned what seems like the endless string of Protestant sect’s that have been practically obsessed with this since the reformation, in every generation their has been those who predict the end and the second coming and conveniently it always seems to be in their own time period, and guess what? they all use the same text’s mainly Daniel and Revelation to arrive at what could only be described as wild, undisciplined, unscriptural speculation.
St Paul warned us not to be taken in by those who go around with the intention of instilling fear and anxiety by harping on and on, with non-biblical conjecture of Christ’s Second coming and the end of the world :

2 Thess 2: 1-3.
1 And we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and of our gathering together unto him:
2 That you be not easily moved from your sense, nor be terrified, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by epistle, as sent from us, as if the day of the Lord were at hand.
3 *Let no man deceive you by any means:

 And yet people keep getting taken in by this? in 1844, some 20,000 people followed William Miller into a field, some even had wings strapped to their backs to assist with flight for when Jesus came. And lets not go into, Jones Town, Waco, etc, etc the list just goes on and on.
 The Catholic Church has taught and preached about the "last days" from the beginning and still does so today, however the Church as always has taught from the mouths of the Apostles and lips of Christ and on this particular subject the Bible is very clear. When is the second coming and the end of the world? Know one Knows, not the angels nor the Son only the Farther. Mt 24:36. We are not meant to know and it goes against the teaching of Christ and the Bible to indulge in pride filled, delusional fantasy. It is destructive and sinful.
  And Logically, as for your comment about millions of people not knowing what they are praying about when they say the words "Thy Kingdom Come" in the Lords prayer? well I am just going to have to let that one slide or I may run the risk of being kicked off the site for being uncharitable. However as Catholics we pray for the Kingdom that Christ taught, is this the same Kingdom taught by the Jehovah's Witnesses? We can get into that one latter.

 

[LaughingBoy1503]

So, in my view and experience, a lot of newer movement “Tick all those boxes”

Wanted to also add that that all the newer restoration movements also have their own unique beliefs that make then say they are different from the rest and then say “Only we do (enter why they think they are unique here)” Or “Only we teach (insert teaching here)” And most (not all but most) are “Sola Scriptura” and coming out with way different interpretations of scripture to come up with their “Unique beliefs” But, cannot even provide a good argument, without using a lot of mental gymnastics, to prove that “Sola Scriptura” was always the rule, instead of a later invention. There is just no way to sugar coat it.

 

[Matt_Guitar_Man]

I found the post!

OK. Now what about these failed predictions and dates?

Sure the JW’s are preaching the system will soon end and the Kingdom will take over, but haven’t they pointed at particular years in the past and been proved wrong?
My answer: “Sort of.”

First may I say that JW’s are not “inspired” by God. They have repeatedly said this.

A quote from Awake:
Jehovah’s Witnesses, in their eagerness for Jesus’ second coming, have suggested dates that turned out to be incorrect. … Never in these instances, however, did they presume to originate predictions ‘in the name of Jehovah.’ Never did they say, ‘These are the words of Jehovah.’
…The Watchtower, the official journal of Jehovah’s Witnesses, has said: “We have not the gift of prophecy.” (January 1883, page 425)
… the fact that some have Jehovah’s spirit “does not mean those now serving as Jehovah’s witnesses are inspired. It does not mean that the writings in this magazine The Watchtower are inspired and infallible and without mistakes.” (May 15, 1947, page 157)
… “The brothers preparing these publications are not infallible. Their writings are not inspired as are those of Paul and the other Bible writers. (2 Tim. 3:16) And so, at times, it has been necessary, as understanding became clearer, to correct views. (Prov. 4:18)”—February 15, 1981, page 19.
End of quote.

So Charles Taze Russell was not visited by an Angel. No one received a divine vision. No one came out of a trance and said: “Wow, I understand the entire Bible all of a sudden.”

The early name of JW’s (until the 1930’s) was simply: “The Bible students.” The name says it all.
They studied the Bible passionately and wrote about what they learned.

And in the late 19th and early 20th century they learned heaps! Each time they discovered something new they made changes to what they believed.
(The ridiculous alternative would be to keep believing something they had come to realise was false )

Also the Bible tells us that the last days will also be plagued by false prophets.