First lesbian bishop to be consecrated by Anglican church in America

[larkin31]

By that logic we should close “the human race”, as these sorts of crimes are more widespread in the average family home (just not reported on by the press).

I agree.

I don’t ever blame the catholic church for the problems of abuse. Mothers and fathers in homes are far worse, and frequently get away with it.

 

[gmcbroom]

larkin31, I agree with you the abuse is regrettably wide spread. However, in a way what you earlier suggested wouldn’t have been possible anyway. Not because of any litigation or temporal power however. The reason it wouldn’t work is because the church is made up of all those baptized with the Trinitarian formula. The people make up the church. Thats why it was able to spread in the days of the early church. Oh, they preached in synagogues (sorry If I butchered that word) but broke bread and talked at the homes of the faithful. Thats why even though some countries may outlaw or persecute Christians they can’t truly destroy the church. I think in places where churches are destroyed the Catholic should adopt the old practices. Or option b which is to shake the dust from our sandals and leave. We can’t abandon those that want to stay though. Just my opinion.

 

[nickybr38]

I was actually on a cross roads to either go to the Anglican church or the Catholic Church. The very morning I was going to attend the Anglican church (there services were at 8:30am which suited me perfectly) I heard about an ‘open lesbian being ordained in the church’. Of course this information wasn’t entirely correct but it made me sit down and do some research. In the end I decided to abandon the idea of attending the Anglican church and the Catholic Church is where I turned because of its staunch refusal to change just to be politically correct. It seems to me if you have the Truth you won’t be changing fundamental traditions.

For me churches that are politically correct are churches that are frightening because they are shaping to “fit in” with the secular world instead of to ‘change’ the secular world.

And I say this coming from the United Church - one of the most politically correct and frightening churches out there!

 

[larkin31]

larkin31, I agree with you the abuse is regrettably wide spread. However, in a way what you earlier suggested wouldn’t have been possible anyway. Not because of any litigation or temporal power however. The reason it wouldn’t work is because the church is made up of all those baptized with the Trinitarian formula. The people make up the church. Thats why it was able to spread in the days of the early church. Oh, they preached in synagogues (sorry If I butchered that word) but broke bread and talked at the homes of the faithful. Thats why even though some countries may outlaw or persecute Christians they can’t truly destroy the church. I think in places where churches are destroyed the Catholic should adopt the old practices. Or option b which is to shake the dust from our sandals and leave. We can’t abandon those that want to stay though. Just my opinion.

I wasn’t really serious. My point was that simply to exclude a group of people because of the actions of a few is not all that reasonable of a response. I don’t blame the Catholic church as a whole and I don’t blame gays as a group for the actions of these priests. It is much more complicated than that, and priest abuse is small (statistically) compared to domestic abuse (enormous, multifaceted). Vigilance, in all areas, is the best approach, not exclusion.

 

[Padrej]

Has the conservative group been recognized by the Archbishop of Canterbury and the rest of the communion?

Does the Archbishop of Canterbury have any (name removed by moderator)ut on who becomes a Bishop?

At the present time the conservative groups are seeking recognition (or some of them are) but right now are being recognized by other Anglican bishops who ARE in communion with Canterbury. Now as to the second question. The Archbishop really has not (name removed by moderator)ut now, but within the conservatives who are under the leadership of those in the southern cone no ordination goes forth without their say so. This does not happen in The Episcopal Church.

 

[Padrej]

I trust that you let your superiors know, since this is, I imagine, a form of heresy alive in your church. Have you pointed out the individuals you are concerned about to your superiors that you trust? Have you written public letters? Do you think any of those persons actually worships the devil instead of God?

Let me be clear, I do not believe that they worship the devil, but what they follow is not the God revealed in the Bible. I have spoken my mind to superiors but as with many conservatives it tends to fall on a deaf ear. Funny, they say those that leave are leaving over not being inclusive, but yet the conservative churches feel that a homosexual is no less worthy of salvation and do welcome them in. The major difference is that we allow the radical love of God to transform them, rather then them to say, God created me this way so like it or leave it. Let me also put it this way, I would welcome a child molester or a murderer as well because they are worthy of salvation as well, but I do not want to see them stay that way. It is true God loves the sinner the way they are but God also loves them too much to want them to stay that way. The Bible tells us to “put off the old man and put on the new.”

I hope that explains it.

 

[Padrej]

The huge scandal in the catholic church relating to child sex offense was mostly perpetrated by homosexual pedophiles. Which supports the vaticans advise not to admit homosexuals into the priesthood.

With all due respect that statement is grossly misinformed and inflammatory. If all of the pedophiles were homosexual why were there just as many girls coming forth who were molested? The way your post reads it makes it sound like every homosexual is also a pedophile my nature.

 

[Aquinas62]

you are wrong. over 80% of victims were adolescent males. the way your post reads makes it sound like all male priests are child molesters…

 

[FrJohnB]

The gracious Katherine overturned the election on a technicality, related to how the episcopal consents were reported, and required a re-vote, of the consents, IIRC.

But the situation was as you described it; politics were at the bottom.

GKC

Thank you for the polite correction. You are correct, it was turned over on a technicality but as I have read, it was a technicality that could have been overlooked. As you say politics were at the bottom.

 

[FrJohnB]

you are wrong. over 80% of victims were adolescent males. the way your post reads makes it sound like all male priests are child molesters…

The statistics vary from location to location. Where Padrej is it is almost 50/50. I am not trying to justify the priest’s actions, but may I also point out that there are just as many Protestant ministers of both sexes who have been convicted and accused of the same crime. I think what Padrej was trying to say was that being a pedophile has nothing to do with being a homosexual but rather not being able to control one’s sinful desires no matter how sick they are.

 

[Aquinas62]

With all due respect that statement is grossly misinformed and inflammatory. If all of the pedophiles were homosexual why were there just as many girls coming forth who were molested? The way your post reads it makes it sound like every homosexual is also a pedophile my nature.

you are wrong, over 80% of victims were adolescent males. The previous poster was actaully more accurate than you are. It seems to me that the use of the phrase, “Pedophile Priest” is a misnomer as the large majority of victims were post pubescent males. the more accurate phrase should have been “Pederast Priest”

 

[FrJohnB]

By that logic we should close “the human race”, as these sorts of crimes are more widespread in the average family home (just not reported on by the press).

At the risk of sounding sarcastic lets bring in the thought police and anybody who does not think the way we think they should should be eradicated from the face of the earth; after all this is following in the same vein of logic. Where do we stop?

We are not all going to agree on this homosexual bishop thing I can see, it seems that we should then in some areas agree to disagree. Maybe if the Episcopal Church needs splitting God has His hand in it by pulling the conservatives out sifting the wheat from the chaff. It looks to me the way most protestant denominations are going that we are going to have a pro-homosexual group and one who is pro-scripture and church tradition.

 

[FrJohnB]

you are wrong, over 80% of victims were adolescent males. The previous poster was actaully more accurate than you are. It seems to me that the use of the phrase, “Pedophile Priest” is a misnomer as the large majority of victims were post pubescent males. the more accurate phrase should have been “Pederast Priest”

Once again I am going to stick to my previous post.

The statistics vary from location to location. Where Padrej is it is almost 50/50. I am not trying to justify the priest’s actions, but may I also point out that there are just as many Protestant ministers of both sexes who have been convicted and accused of the same crime. I think what Padrej was trying to say was that being a pedophile has nothing to do with being a homosexual but rather not being able to control one’s sinful desires no matter how sick they are.

May one inquire where you are getting this statistical information? Is it from an anti Catholic site? Being this is a thread on the Anglican church and is homosexual clergy, I do not think this is the place to air our dirty laundry.

 

[Padrej]

you are wrong, over 80% of victims were adolescent males. The previous poster was actaully more accurate than you are. It seems to me that the use of the phrase, “Pedophile Priest” is a misnomer as the large majority of victims were post pubescent males. the more accurate phrase should have been “Pederast Priest”

Nationwide you are correct on the statistics and it is actually 81-19% ratio of boys to girls. in my area where I serve it is almost a 50/50 dispersion however.
May I also suggest this link on the myths about this subject so that hopefully we can move on to the real subject at hand. It states nowhere that it has anything to do with being homosexual which is my real point.
catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0011.html

 

[Contarini]

1. They feel that homosexual relationships are holy in the same way heterosexual ones are.
2. They feel the main, and maybe only, purpose of marriage is companionship, with remedy for sin a far second. Procreation is optional.
3. They use a Biblical argument using Paul and the position of Gentiles in the early Church. They equate the gentiles to homosexuals in our situation, though there is no real argument that this is an appropriate comparison.

So, number one really is barely an argument, let alone a theological one.

Number two is a statement about marriage, but not an argument. As a statement, it is out of line with a classic Anglican understanding, though it is probably what most people in society really think.

Number three is supposed to be an argument from scripture, but as I noted does not really manage to argue convincingly that gentiles and homosexuals are equivalent. The one effort to do this is to say that in the past people did not realize that homosexuality had a biological component, which is not the case and really rather naive.

There is no real attempt to address Tradition.

There is no attempt at all to address the problem of ordaining people who are sexually active outside of marriage, and it seems to be implied that is what is expected.

There is no proper theological argument that discusses the basics - what are men and women? What is sex? What is marriage? One that does more than work from scripture without addressing the metaphysical foundations for their thoughts.

And it actually argues that we cannot expect gay people to be celibate since we don’t expect heterosexual people to.

It is hard to take this document seriously as more than an example of shallow and inadaquate theological method, and ****-poor, jargon heavy writing.

I disagree with the arguments too. But it was earlier claimed that there simply is no theological argument here. And obviously there is. Fine, it’s a poor one. But your attempt to say “it’s not really theological” actually boils down to “it doesn’t use what I consider proper criteria for theology.” Again, I would agree. But it’s misuse of language to confuse “bad theology” with “no theology.”

Liberal theology puts high value on experience. I agree that this leads to some flawed theological conclusions, but it is certainly a theological method.

Edwin

 

[Aquinas62]

Nationwide you are correct on the statistics and it is actually 81-19% ratio of boys to girls. in my area where I serve it is almost a 50/50 dispersion however.
May I also suggest this link on the myths about this subject so that hopefully we can move on to the real subject at hand. It states nowhere that it has anything to do with being homosexual which is my real point.
catholiceducation.org/articles/facts/fm0011.html

I understand that the main idea is to preclude any “purge” or outright hostility to persons of same sex orientation. That said, my point still stands… you have to willfully be blinded to not see there is a problem there, and it needs to be HONESTLY addressed, as painful as it may be.

 

[Terry_McCann]

Apologies if I caused confusion. I was only referring to Catholic priests. And I am not trying to insinuate that Catholic priests are pedophiles. I do stand behind the fact that the majority of these crimes were adult male on underage male (often not pedophilia - although distorted by the media as such), but still horrible abuses of trust with young and vulnerable minds.

 

[Padrej]

I understand that the main idea is to preclude any “purge” or outright hostility to persons of same sex orientation. That said, my point still stands… you have to willfully be blinded to not see there is a problem there, and it needs to be HONESTLY addressed, as painful as it may be.

Please understand that I am NOT in any way “outright hostile” towards those who are of same sex orientation. My brother in law is of that orientation and I have a couple in my church who are. I do not treat them any differently than I would any other person. I do not agree with their lifestyle any more than I would a murderer or a gossip or a thief. My calling is to show them the love of Christ. The issue should be addressed as painful as it is I agree, but this link is on the homosexual clergy of the Anglican church and not on that of the Roman Catholic church. In my mind they are apples and oranges. One take a vow to be celibate and the others in the Episcopal church do not. The Catholic church welcomes those who holds traditional values and the Episcopal church does not.

 

[Anna_Scott]

Evil or the devil or whatever you want to call it depending on your persuasion has always been at work to try and destroy the church. We have the promise that it will not prevail. As to the Episcopal Church I look at it this way, The Bible always speaks that there will always be a faithful remnant, and I Pray that there will be. I would love to see a conservative like Padrej come to Rome but right now the Anglicans need him as much as we do. God will always provide.

FrJohnB,

I have been following this Thread, and I’m glad to see you and Padrej in the discussion. I do agree-Anglicans need Padrej. I will also pray a faithful remnant will remain in TEC. If all the conservatives leave, TEC may lose its spiritual conscience, altogether.

yes I have a parish and I am an auxiliary Anglican bishop and have several parishes and ministries under my cure. Thank you for your prayers, I am being asked to take on a much larger church right now than the one that I am currently serving and it is has some “issues” that I have been made aware of before going in. I have actually been in ministry now 22 years, 7 of those as a bishop.

I pray God’s peace and blessings upon your ministry.

At the present time the conservative groups are seeking recognition (or some of them are) but right now are being recognized by other Anglican bishops who ARE in communion with Canterbury. Now as to the second question. The Archbishop really has not (name removed by moderator)ut now, but within the conservatives who are under the leadership of those in the southern cone no ordination goes forth without their say so. This does not happen in The Episcopal Church.

Padrej,

Would you say Anglicans have more “checks” in place, than TEC?

There is an Anglican Church in my area, that broke away from TEC, just 2 years ago, due to the liberal views and decisions of TEC. This Anglican Church is now aligned with AMiA – Anglican Mission in the Americas – a North American missionary movement in North America under the Province of Rwanda.

Anglican Mission in the Americas
Link: theamia.org/identity/our-story/more-anglican-mission-history/

Protocol Governing the Relationship between The Anglican Mission in the Americas and
The Anglican Church in North America (ACNA)
Link: theamia.org/am_cms_media/anglicanmissionprotocolforacnar1.pdf

I was actually on a cross roads to either go to the Anglican church or the Catholic Church. The very morning I was going to attend the Anglican church (there services were at 8:30am which suited me perfectly) I heard about an ‘open lesbian being ordained in the church’. Of course this information wasn’t entirely correct but it made me sit down and do some research. In the end I decided to abandon the idea of attending the Anglican church and the Catholic Church is where I turned because of its staunch refusal to change just to be politically correct. It seems to me if you have the Truth you won’t be changing fundamental traditions.

For me churches that are politically correct are churches that are frightening because they are shaping to “fit in” with the secular world instead of to ‘change’ the secular world.

And I say this coming from the United Church - one of the most politically correct and frightening churches out there!

nickybr38,

I appreciate your post. I think many, who are at a crossroads, will move away from TEC, in particular. I would not lump TEC and the Anglican Church in the same category. TEC is carving a liberal path contrary to Anglican tradition and historical orthodox Christianity.

When I visited the conservative Anglican Church (that broke away from TEC); I told staff, I have been attending _________ Episcopal Church. They said they have members who left my Episcopal Church to join their Anglican congregation.

So, TEC may experience a decline in converts; and may, also, lose some current members. I’m still on the fence.

These are very difficult times, especially for conservative Priests and Bishops in TEC. Liberals may be too busy celebrating to notice their Church is in crisis.

Anna

 

[larkin31]

Let me be clear, I do not believe that they worship the devil, but what they follow is not the God revealed in the Bible. I have spoken my mind to superiors but as with many conservatives it tends to fall on a deaf ear. Funny, they say those that leave are leaving over not being inclusive, but yet the conservative churches feel that a homosexual is no less worthy of salvation and do welcome them in. The major difference is that we allow the radical love of God to transform them, rather then them to say, God created me this way so like it or leave it. Let me also put it this way, I would welcome a child molester or a murderer as well because they are worthy of salvation as well, but I do not want to see them stay that way. It is true God loves the sinner the way they are but God also loves them too much to want them to stay that way. The Bible tells us to “put off the old man and put on the new.”

I hope that explains it.

Well, the problem seems to be with your moral equivalence between adult gay love and child molestation or murder.