First Openly Transgender Person Ordained in the ELCA

[steido01]

A Lutheran being lectured on a Catholic forum by a Muslim about what it means to be a Christian and a Lutheran…That’s a new one for me.

Yet the Muslim on the Catholic forum correctly articulates the feeling many Lutherans share toward those who claim to be Lutheran Christians, yet tolerate and even endorse anti-Scriptural practices. Funny how our God works.

 

[JonNC]

This, of course, makes no sense. The definition of deceit is, “the act or practice of deceiving; concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.” If someone is open and honest about what they believe, that is the opposite of concealing or misleading. There might be disagreement about what Lutherans must believe and about what it means to be a Lutheran, but that does not mean that there is any deceit.

Also, the decision by the ELCA to become more welcoming and inclusive for LGBT people (including clergy) was done through a democratic process (and guided by the holy spirit) in its 65 synod assemblies and its Churchwide Assembly and represents the will and the beliefs of a majority of its more than 3 million members. Nothing about this process has been concealed or done for the purpose of misleading.

Thor,
As you profess to be Lutheran, please tell me if you agree with my signature quote.

I was born, baptized, raised and confirmed in an LCA parish by an LCA pastor. I have nothing but affection for family and friends who remain in the ELCA, may God bless them richly.

You regularly make the comment that the ELCA is "welcoming and inclusive for LGBT individuals. Is the ELCA equally welcoming of those heterosexuals living in a “committed, monogamous relationship”, but are not married? My understanding is that the ELCA will not ordain such an individual.

Jon

 

[Lucretius]

The name “Lutheran” comes from “Luther”, as in Martin Luther, the reformer. Disagreement, if you want to call it that, among Lutherans in regards to homosexuality is only made possible when Sola Scriptura is cast aside. If the Bible is treated as the only infallible rule of faith, there would be no disagreements on homosexuality. Do I, as a muslim, really have to coach someone on what the Bible says? I can go to Romans 1, 1Corinthians 6, and Genesis if you really want me to, but I hope it doesn’t have to come to that.

I’m sorry to hear that the Lutheran Church’s understanding of transgenderism is fragile enough to be left up to a vote. We’re talking about the very purpose of God’s creation and purpose in making one male and another female-- and the purposes therein. Was Martin Luther so confused about the Bible that his disbelief in it started at Genesis chapter 2?

Look, you can practice in private whatever you want, but when someone uses the name of Christ and associates it with pro-transgenderism or what have you, I take offense to that. It’s no different than if someone were to associate Muhammad’s name with pro-transgenderism. Christ [peace be upon him] is one of the prophets of my Faith. Caving in to transgender ideology is faithful neither to Luther, nor to Christ, hence my accusation of you using deceit to promote your beliefs (which I fully stand by, by the way).

I don’t really think they are being deceitful, just contradictory and incoherent. They are ignoring that what the world believes and Christ teaches are mutually exclusive. They are just “worldly Christians,” or to use Chesterton’s phrasing “following the fads of the times.”

If they can ignore the teachings of St. Paul on homosexuality, they should ignore the so called teachings of St. Paul on faith alone and rejoin the Catholics too

Christi pax,

Lucretius

St. Thomas, pray for us!

 

[JonNC]

I don’t really think they are being deceitful, just contradictory and incoherent. They are ignoring that what the world believes and Christ teaches are mutually exclusive. They are just “worldly Christians,” or to use Chesterton’s phrasing “following the fads of the times.”

If they can ignore the teachings of St. Paul on homosexuality, they should ignore the so called teachings of St. Paul on faith alone and rejoin the Catholics too

Christi pax,

Lucretius

St. Thomas, pray for us!

Except they reject the teachings of St. Paul on homosexuality that Catholics and confessional Lutherans share. They won’t join us. Why would they even consider joining you?

Jon

 

[MaryT777]

I don’t really think they are being deceitful, just contradictory and incoherent. They are ignoring that what the world believes and Christ teaches are mutually exclusive. They are just “worldly Christians,” or to use Chesterton’s phrasing “following the fads of the times.”

If they can ignore the teachings of St. Paul on homosexuality, they should ignore the so called teachings of St. Paul on faith alone and rejoin the Catholics too

Christi pax,

Lucretius

St. Thomas, pray for us!

Perhaps some of those dismayed with the recent events will do just that,
join the Catholic Church!~

Let us hope and pray,

Mary.

 

[Lucretius]

Except they reject the teachings of St. Paul on homosexuality that Catholics and confessional Lutherans share. They won’t join us. Why would they even consider joining you?

Jon

Sadly, there are some in the Catholic Church who believe homosexuality is not a sin

Anyway, it was just a joke at the end of my response anyway

Christi pax,

Lucretius

St. Thomas, pray for us!

 

[powerofk]

Sadly, there are some in the Catholic Church who believe homosexuality is not a sin

Anyway, it was just a joke at the end of my response anyway

Christi pax,

Lucretius

St. Thomas, pray for us!

And there’s a lot of people that don’t understand that, unlike Protestant denominations, the Catholic Church’s teachings cannot change. Sure, some may be expounded upon, or defined, etc. But - our teachings are dictated by God, not men. As God is unchanging, so His laws are unchanging.

Many (both from inside and outside the Church) don’t understand this, and, especially for the last 50 years, have been pressing for the Church to “get with the times”. These people expect the Church to change Her teaching just because the world outside the Church has changed its teachings. So whether it is now or in a thousand years, the Church will (a) never accept a woman as a priest, (b) never condone artificial means of contraception as okay, (c) never accept a homosexual union as a marriage, (d) not veer from the teachings as passed down from the apostles. The Mass may change wording and format and language, but never intent. And we will remain as Christ’s faithful bride until He returns in glory, doing what we can to attract people to Him.

 

[Thorolfr]

And there’s a lot of people that don’t understand that, unlike Protestant denominations, the Catholic Church’s teachings cannot change. Sure, some may be expounded upon, or defined, etc. But - our teachings are dictated by God, not men. As God is unchanging, so His laws are unchanging.

A senior German cardinal has emphasised that Church doctrine can change over time.

Speaking at a press briefing last Friday, before the synod on the family delivered its final report, Cardinal Reinhard Marx said the Church’s doctrine can develop.

“Saying that the doctrine will never change is a restrictive view of things,” Cardinal Marx said.

“The core of the Catholic Church remains the Gospel, but have we discovered everything?” he asked. “This is what I doubt.”

The cardinal made a distinction between gay couples who have monogamous relationships for decades and gay persons who are promiscuous.

“I cannot simply say that everything is black or everything is white,” he said.

“We cannot say that since you are homosexual, you cannot experience the Gospel,” Cardinal Marx continued. “This is impossible to me.”

cathnews.co.nz/2014/10/21/synod-german-cardinal-says-church-doctrine-can-change/

 

[powerofk]

cathnews.co.nz/2014/10/21/synod-german-cardinal-says-church-doctrine-can-change/

This doesn’t mean the German Cardinal is right. Simply put, if Truth is changable based on time and place, then the only truth is that there is nothing that is True, and the doctrine that the Church (in general and the Pope & ecumenical councils in particular) is infallible on faith and morals false. Believe me, the upcoming synod will not support the German Cardinal’s suppositions. Just as Pope Bl. Paul VI dismissed those (who were in the majority) who wished to declare artificial means of contraception to be licit when he wrote Humanae Vitae and as Pope St. John Paul II dismissed those who wanted women to be ordained by stating that the issue had been closed and deemed impossible by the general magisterium of the Church, the Church will not change the teaching that a marriage between two people of the same sex is impossible.

Listen, we have never stated that those dealing with a homosexual attraction/orientation cannot experience the Gospel. We have simply stated that, marriage, as ordained by God, is between one man and one woman - and that the bond lasts for life. Anything else is not a marriage in the eyes of God. Sex between two people who are not married is a sin, pure and simple, because the primary purpose of sex is to produce children (with the unity of the spouses being the secondary purpose - which is why sex, when consensual is always allowed when a couple is married to each other, even if it the couple is sterile). While other animals are often only raised by their mothers (or by a whole herd), human children need both parents to help take care of them, and so it is important that their parents are in a loving, committed relationship which has the seal of God strengthening them.

This is what the sacrament of Holy Matrimony is - it is one man and one woman professing their love with each other and having it sealed and strengthened by God - and allowing God to bless their union with children, should He wish to bless them with children. It is also a sacred vow to be loyal and faithful to the other spouse for life, and to help the other spouse reach Heaven. The entering into the Sacrament of Matrimony occurs at the altar. This is important because the altar is first and foremost a place of sacrifice. In matrimony, we sacrifice ourselves for the good of the other - even to death, should it be necessary. Every husband should be willing to sacrifice his life for his wife and his children. Every wife should be willing to sacrifice her life for her husband and her children.

 

[catholic1seeks]

Thorolfr,

Hats off to your communion, opening up to people of all backgrounds and experiences. I do not see how any Christian who maintains the traditional understanding of these things (saying homosexual relationships are wrong or that gay or transgender persons can’t be ordained) can at the same time think these people (transgender persons and gay persons) will be able to find a place that makes sense for them in the Church. People who maintain these traditional teachings need to really reflect on what these teachings mean to those people that they involve; we all need walk in our neighbor’s shoes. Does anyone honestly think that a person with “deep-seated” transgender or gay feelings can find an authentic place in a church that teaches that his/her most basic understanding of himself/herself and his/her most basic feelings, experiences, and way of relating to other people is flawed and disordered?

 

[Lucretius]

Thorolfr,

Hats off to your communion, opening up to people of all backgrounds and experiences. I do not see how any Christian who maintains the traditional understanding of these things (saying homosexual relationships are wrong or that gay or transgender persons can’t be ordained) can at the same time think these people (transgender persons and gay persons) will be able to find a place that makes sense for them in the Church. People who maintain these traditional teachings need to really reflect on what these teachings mean to those people that they involve; we all need walk in our neighbor’s shoes. Does anyone honestly think that a person with “deep-seated” transgender or gay feelings can find an authentic place in a church that teaches that his/her most basic understanding of himself/herself and his/her most basic feelings, experiences, and way of relating to other people is flawed and disordered?

The idea that we are our feelings is misleading, if it refuses to point out that we are more than our feelings, for it creates the illusion that the will has complete control over the passions, which is clearly false.

Now, what does the OP mean by “transgender?” Does he mean someone who feels like the opposite sex, but mindfully rejects acting on such an impulse? If so, he describes a virtuous person, and the Lutherans should be honored to appoint him. However, if he is one who acts on these feelings, calling himself a her, or calling herself a him, crossdressing, even (heaven forbid) removed genitles, then the OP not only describe a worldly man, but one who is seriously mentally ill, and should be referred to the proper help he needs. Most importantly, he needs our prayers.

Christi pax,

Lucretius

*Note: I use “he” and “him” to refer to a person with an unspecified sex. This is the proper way to express such a pronoun in English (like how “Man” refers to both sexes). Sadly, “it” is not a personal pronoun, and so is insulting to refer to a person with an unspecified sex as “it” (which is why we don’t refer to God as “it”). If only English had a personal, gender-neutral pronoun (“they” is starting to be used for this purpose, but I’m not a fan of it).

 

[Picky_Picky]

“They” has been used as a singular pronoun since Chaucer.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

This, of course, makes no sense. The definition of deceit is, “the act or practice of deceiving; concealment or distortion of the truth for the purpose of misleading; duplicity; fraud; cheating.” If someone is open and honest about what they believe, that is the opposite of concealing or misleading. There might be disagreement about what Lutherans must believe and about what it means to be a Lutheran, but that does not mean that there is any deceit.

Also, the decision by the ELCA to become more welcoming and inclusive for LGBT people (including clergy) was done through a democratic process (and guided by the holy spirit) in its 65 synod assemblies and its Churchwide Assembly and represents the will and the beliefs of a majority of its more than 3 million members. Nothing about this process has been concealed or done for the purpose of misleading.

2Ti 4:3 For the time is coming when people will not endure sound teaching, but having itching ears they will accumulate for themselves teachers to suit their own likings,
2Ti 4:4 and will turn away from listening to the truth and wander into myths.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

Thorolfr,

Hats off to your communion, opening up to people of all backgrounds and experiences. I do not see how any Christian who maintains the traditional understanding of these things (saying homosexual relationships are wrong or that gay or transgender persons can’t be ordained) can at the same time think these people (transgender persons and gay persons) will be able to find a place that makes sense for them in the Church. People who maintain these traditional teachings need to really reflect on what these teachings mean to those people that they involve; we all need walk in our neighbor’s shoes. Does anyone honestly think that a person with “deep-seated” transgender or gay feelings can find an authentic place in a church that teaches that his/her most basic understanding of himself/herself and his/her most basic feelings, experiences, and way of relating to other people is flawed and disordered?

A person who is a junkie, or an alcoholic, also sees that as his or her most basic feeling, need, experience, and way of relating to others. That’s an absolute truth, catholic1. Those are needs that are so far beyond sexual needs that they will compromise and ignore sexual relationships in pursuit of that need.

Is it charity to them to encourage, pander, normalize, or glorify that self-characterization?

 

[Thorolfr]

Thorolfr,

Hats off to your communion, opening up to people of all backgrounds and experiences. I do not see how any Christian who maintains the traditional understanding of these things (saying homosexual relationships are wrong or that gay or transgender persons can’t be ordained) can at the same time think these people (transgender persons and gay persons) will be able to find a place that makes sense for them in the Church. People who maintain these traditional teachings need to really reflect on what these teachings mean to those people that they involve; we all need walk in our neighbor’s shoes. Does anyone honestly think that a person with “deep-seated” transgender or gay feelings can find an authentic place in a church that teaches that his/her most basic understanding of himself/herself and his/her most basic feelings, experiences, and way of relating to other people is flawed and disordered?

Unfortunately, a Pew Research Center survey of LGBT people from 2013 found that almost half (48%) said they have no religious affiliation which is much higher than the population at large but not a surprise. Many LGBT people have obviously given up on religion because they don’t feel welcome.

Roughly half (48%) say they have no religious affiliation, compared with 20% of the public at large. Of those LGBT adults who are religiously affiliated, one-third say there is a conflict between their religious beliefs and their sexual orientation or gender identity. And among all LGBT adults, about three-in-ten (29%) say they have been made to feel unwelcome in a place of worship.

pewsocialtrends.org/2013/06/13/a-survey-of-lgbt-americans/7/

 

[Sy_Noe]

Unfortunately, a Pew Research Center survey of LGBT people from 2013 found that almost half (48%) said they have no religious affiliation which is much higher than the population at large but not a surprise. Many LGBT people have obviously given up on religion because they don’t feel welcome.

pewsocialtrends.org/2013/06/13/a-survey-of-lgbt-americans/7/

Often times, more than not, I find this forum discouraging in my own Christian walk but then I read posts like the thread’s opening post and this one. And then I am grateful and it warms my heart to see Christian faiths that welcome and make room for all of God’s Christ-believing children to join Him at the table. There already was once an inn with no vacancy for a child. I don’t believe Christ wants that for his but instead as he taught, would turn no one away who is called. And I just don’t believe I yet sit high enough in the sky to judge which of His believers is or is not called.

 

[Thorolfr]

Often times, more than not, I find this forum discouraging in my own Christian walk but then I read posts like the thread’s opening post and this one. And then I am grateful and it warms my heart to see Christian faiths that welcome and make room for all of God’s Christ-believing children to join Him at the table. There already was once an inn with no vacancy for a child. I don’t believe Christ wants that for his but instead as he taught, would turn no one away who is called. And I just don’t believe I yet sit high enough in the sky to judge which of His believers is or is not called.

I’m happy for Asher O’Callaghan and for the church that has called him to be their pastor, Zion Lutheran in Idaho Springs, Colorado.

 

[Lucretius]

“They” has been used as a singular pronoun since Chaucer.

Aren’t you picky

I’m sorry, I just had to do it

Christi pax,

Lucretius

 

[Picky_Picky]

Aren’t you picky

I’m sorry, I just had to do it

Christi pax,

Lucretius

That’s quite all right, no need to apologise. Picky I am, I’m afraid.

Best wishes

 

[josh987654321]

.

.

.

Thank you.

Does anyone honestly think that a person with “deep-seated” transgender or gay feelings can find an authentic place in a church that teaches that his/her most basic understanding of himself/herself and his/her most basic feelings, experiences, and way of relating to other people is flawed and disordered?

Yes. Becuase our desires are not who we are, we all suffer from immoral desires, including myself, and I find a home in the Church that tells me the truth, that forgives our sins and helps us on the path to virtue. I believe it is an absolutely disasterous mistake to believe that one is ruled by their desires.

I hope this has helped

God Bless You

Thank you for reading
Josh