First Presidential Debate 9/26/16 Thread

[Sy_Noe]

Good luck with the individual right to gun ownership under HC
Re the rest of your list,let me revise that to read,under penalty of law all Christians and those opposed to abortion,gay marriage ,euthanasia,single payer insurance,will be compelled to comply.

Women such as Catholic women whose faiths oppose a woman’s right to choose an abortion have the right not to procure an abortion today and that won’t change. And those opposed to gay marriage will still have the right not to celebrate one. Even in the mainline Christian faiths that permit SSM, it is not a requirement that clergy celebrate these marriages. In TEC, it is left to individual bishops and then upon approval by the bishop, to their diocesan priests. In others, it is left to individual pastors as to whether they will officiate. Do you think women and homosexuals of other faiths whose faiths do not share the Catholic faith, should have their religious liberty and legal civil rights taken away from them?

 

[Jeanne_S]

Women such as Catholic women whose faiths oppose a woman’s right to choose an abortion have the right not to procure an abortion today and that won’t change. And those opposed to gay marriage will still have the right not to celebrate one. Even in the mainline Christian faiths that permit SSM, it is not a requirement that clergy celebrate these marriages. In TEC, it is left to individual bishops and then upon approval by the bishop, to their diocesan priests. In others, it is left to individual pastors as to whether they will officiate. Do you think women of other faiths whose faiths do not share the Catholic faith, should have their religious liberty taken away from them?

For the umpteenth time,do you think people of faith should have these issues foisted upon them,when they are antithetical to their religious and moral beliefs? Should they be penalized ,through lawsuits and exorbitant fines for remaining faithful to their beliefs,oftentimes being driven out of business? This is unAMERICAN .

 

[Sy_Noe]

I think it depends on which way the wind is blowing…remember when she believed in traditional marriage?
Hillary will do what she needs to do to advance her political life.

Many Christians besides Hillary Clinton whose faith is not Catholic for instance, have had their discernment and understanding grow and evolve on marriage. It has nothing to do with wind.

 

[sallybutler]

Rags to riches…oh,pleaseGoldwater,oh yeah,that was before she talked to and became a devotee’ of Saul Alinsky back in college.Rules for Radicals,her bible

So you are agreeing that the other items I listed do align with Republican values.

Also, are you saying she was never poor or she isn’t rich. I’m confused by what you want.

I’ve never read Rules for Radicals or anything by Saul Alinsky, so I can’t respond to that, other than possibly saying Big Foot, Nessie, sky is falling

 

[sallybutler]

Women such as Catholic women whose faiths oppose a woman’s right to choose an abortion have the right not to procure an abortion today and that won’t change. And those opposed to gay marriage will still have the right not to celebrate one. Even in the mainline Christian faiths that permit SSM, it is not a requirement that clergy celebrate these marriages. In TEC, it is left to individual bishops and then upon approval by the bishop, to their diocesan priests. In others, it is left to individual pastors as to whether they will officiate. Do you think women and homosexuals of other faiths whose faiths do not share the Catholic faith, should have their religious liberty and legal civil rights taken away from them?

What I’ve noticed is that we Catholics insist on judging people by some tenets of our faith but not all tenets of our faith. Yes, abortion is wrong, but so is birth control, adultery, remarriage, slander, greed, etc.

 

[Sy_Noe]

For the umpteenth time,do you think people of faith should have these issues foisted upon them,when they are antithetical to their religious and moral beliefs? Should they be penalized ,through lawsuits and exorbitant fines for remaining faithful to their beliefs,oftentimes being driven out of business? This is unAMERICAN .

I know of no one who is penalized for not seeking an abortion due to their beliefs or for not taking contraceptives that are provided in a uniform healthcare plan so women regardless of where they live and work have the same healthcare coverage. Just because a benefit is in a plan doesn’t mean it must be used by those whose faiths object. That said I will be the first to say the business of balancing rights so everyone is pleased is difficult to say the least.

 

[Jeanne_S]

So you are agreeing that the other items I listed do align with Republican values.

Also, are you saying she was never poor or she isn’t rich. I’m confused by what you want.

I’ve never read Rules for Radicals or anything by Saul Alinsky, so I can’t respond to that, other than possibly saying Big Foot, Nessie, sky is falling

No she was never poor although she claims she and Bill were broke when they left thevWH.Maybe that is why they took over 200,000K worth of items with them when they left.yeah she is rich now,so what? How she acquired her wealth is of a dubious nature also.Finally no,I don’t agree that she aligns with Republican values in any way.

 

[Sy_Noe]

What I’ve noticed is that we Catholics insist on judging people by some tenets of our faith but not all tenets of our faith. Yes, abortion is wrong, but so is birth control, adultery, remarriage, slander, greed, etc.

You make a good point.

 

[7_Sorrows]

Many Christians besides Hillary Clinton whose faith is not Catholic for instance, have had their discernment and understanding grow and evolve on marriage. It has nothing to do with wind.

with Hillary it does if it means more votes come election time…

 

[Jeanne_S]

I know of no one who is penalized for not seeking an abortion due to their beliefs or for not taking contraceptives that are provided in a uniform healthcare plan so women regardless of where they live and work have the same healthcare coverage. Just because a benefit is in a plan doesn’t mean it must be used by those whose faiths object. That said I will be the first to say the business of balancing rights so everyone is pleased is difficult to say the least.

How about The Little Sisters of the Poor? Also you failed to respond to my points re businesses being penalized by refusing to be complicit in gay marriage.We have seen a whole lot of that going on lately.
No it wouldn’t, be difficult to balance.Those intent on forcing their agenda on others can find another business who would happily accommodate them rather than driving folks out of business just to prove a point.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Rags to riches…oh,pleaseGoldwater,oh yeah,that was before she talked to and became a devotee’ of Saul Alinsky back in college.Rules for Radicals,her bible

Actually I’ve heard besides her disillusionment with the Vietnam War, her Methodist pastor taking her to hear MLK Jr and her interest in civil rights and social justice had a lot to do with her changing political views and leaving the Republican Party.

 

[YADA]

Well, that’s absolutely how it was in New York City before our (massive) stop-and-frisk program was discontinued.

I posted about this back in 2013:

Does your neighborhood have the same crime issues as his … I get that he may be stopped in his neighborhood and not in yours - but what are the underlying issues …

After all if it was merely his skin color - you would think that he would be stopped more often in your predominantly white neighborhood … because he would stand out more there … but there are probably less police there … why is that? Do both neighborhoods have the same incidences of crime? Which has drug sales on the street corners? Drive by shootings? Gang graffiti? Car and property theft? House break ins?

If there is a disparity in arrests - does that mean that the police are ignoring crime sprees in your neighborhood and concentrating all their efforts in African american neighborhoods just so they can arrest more African Americans than whites … and if that was truly the case - wouldn’t the African American dominated neighborhood be safer than the white neighborhood?

Sadly, bad social policy has lead to the breakdown of the African American family … where now nearly three quarters of African American children are born and raised without fathers - hence you are trying to help and see anger in this young man … The Great Society and the War on Poverty have failed - you cannot destroy a persons self worth with government hand outs, house them in government housing in crowded conditions … and expect the people to thrive and overcome poverty.

I do not harbor ill will against anyone for their race, creed, color … but I also so not condone law breaking nor feel that it is correct to reward sloth, gaming the system and many other things that people will do in the short run …

I have relatives and I am not a minority] who try to game the system … one nieces husband quit a job one year specifically because if he made more money they would loose the earned income credit. A woman called into Dave Ramsay’s radio show - her 18 year old son was about to get a legal settlement in a car accident and she was wanting to know how hide the money so that he would not loose a government subsidy that was based on low income and limited assets … Everyone wants something for nothing … everyone wants a piece of that “Government free money” and that mind set is affecting poor people of every race and nationality - to their detriment … steal from the government and from each other … which gets the police in the neighborhood which gets more people into legal issues - its a cycle …

The best thing would be to get your young man out of that neighborhood - or get the neighborhood to be more like yours … not in ethnicity but in criminal activity … I would guess if the crime went down, stayed down - there wouldn’t be the same police presence - which would mean less stops

I pray that your young man stays level headed and away from illegal activity - that when stopped he remains calm and obedient to directions and that instead of being angry - he prays for the safety of his neighbors, the police who are trying to keep all of his friends and family safe in their neighborhood… and does his part to report criminal activity if aware of it … for his safety and the safety of all

 

[sallybutler]

No she was never poor although she claims she and Bill were broke when they left thevWH.Maybe that is why they took over 200,000K worth of items with them when they left.yeah she is rich now,so what? How she acquired her wealth is of a dubious nature also.Finally no,I don’t agree that she aligns with Republican values in any way.

Becoming rich is an American value. Why are you denigrating Clinton for achieving the Americans dream.

She was not raised in a wealthy environment like Trump was. And while Trump is wealthy beyond what most of us can ever hope to obtain, unlike Clinton, he began his current wealth on what he inherited.

While I get you don’t like Hillary, suggesting that because she made money just like Trump did, makes her a bad person while it makes Trump a good person, is confusing.

 

[Sy_Noe]

How about The Little Sisters of the Poor? Also you failed to respond to my points re businesses being penalized by refusing to be complicit in gay marriage.We have seen a whole lot of that going on lately.
No it wouldn’t, be difficult to balance.Those intent on forcing their agenda on others can find another business who would happily accommodate them rather than driving folks out of business just to prove a point.

I didn’t think I failed to respond. That was my point about the difficulty in pleasing everyone.
From my understanding, the Dept of HHS decided upon what to cover based on the Institute of Medicine and it was determined that there are some tangible health benefits to women by covering contraceptives. The sisters and others were given a compromise though in which they could sign a form to be exempt from directly providing coverage. And of course this is America. No woman is forced by fiat to use such coverage. And my guess is with all of the same gender marriages that have occurred since civil marriage equality for monogamous couples became the law of the land, that by far, most have actually happily found officiants and businesses that are more than happy to accommodate them. We tend to only hear about the minority of couples who have sued. But this whole discussion just goes to show the difficulty in pleasing everyone. The sisters weren’t happy with the compromise. Others aren’t happy not to have uniform healthcare benefits covered for women. And I don’t pretend to have all the answers.

 

[Michael_Mayo]

I just think k Hillary is less likely to do something crazy. Trump is unpredictable.

 

[Thorolfr]

One thing I’d like to know from Mr. Trump’s income tax returns is if he’s really as good a businessman and as wealthy as he claims. He’s claimed to be worth $10 billion, but according to a new analysis by Forbes, he’s really worth about $3.7 billion:

Donald Trump is still way richer than you are — but the gap is closing, according to new calculations of the presidential hopeful’s net worth.

Declines in New York real estate hit the businessman’s fortune, knocking off $800 million, and making his net worth now around $3.7 billion, a Forbes probe has found.

During the course of his presidential campaign, Trump has made much of his successful career and his high net worth, which he has estimated as high as $10 billion.

The magazine examined 28 Trump assets and found that 18 had declined in value, the most notable being the Trump Tower in Manhattan, his 40 Wall Street property near the New York Stock Exchange, and his ritzy Mar-a-Lago club in Palm Beach, Florida.

Trump Tower, the Fifth Avenue building showcased on his former NBC show “The Apprentice,” is his most valuable property with a value of $471 million, according to Forbes. Outside of New York, the top asset is his 555 California Street building in San Francisco, with a value of $1.645 billion, an increase over the past year of $32 million.

During the course of the campaign, Trump has made much of his successful career and his high net worth, which he has estimated as high as $10 billion. By contrast, his Democratic opponent Hillary Clinton has a net worth of $31.3 million, according to financial disclosure reports cited by Money Nation.

nbcnews.com/business/business-news/forbes-trump-s-net-worth-fell-800-million-year-n656856

 

[ProVobis]

One thing I’d like to know from Mr. Trump’s income tax returns is if he’s really as good a businessman and as wealthy as he claims. He’s claimed to be worth $10 billion, but according to a new analysis by Forbes, he’s really worth about $3.7 billion:

This could very well be, in which case he can thank the low interest rates to make it more appealing for a prospective buyer at that estimated price. The same low interest rates which he claims boosted the stock market, which he doesn’t find too appealing.

If interest rates go up, then his estimated worth is reduced. He may not like that so he might have the Fed chair replaced if he’s President. Might be a conflict of interest but unless Congress says otherwise, it’s perfectly legal.

 

[Tomdstone]

From my understanding, the Dept of HHS decided upon what to cover based on the Institute of Medicine and it was determined that there are some tangible health benefits to women by covering contraceptives.

According to the Catholic Church it can be a mortal sin and therefore detrimental to the soul for a woman to use contraceptives. If a person dies in unrepented mortal sin, then it is my understanding that the person will go to hell, which is the worst thing that can happen to someone.

 

[Thorolfr]

At the end of the debate, Mr. Trump said that he had refrained from mentioning Bill Clinton’s indiscretions because Chelsea was in the audience. But his surrogates have apparently been bringing the issue up according to an article at NBC News. One of the claims that is often made is that Mrs. Clinton was “vindictive” towards the women Bill was involved with. But according to the NBC article:

The allegations around Clinton have been debated and relitigated over decades and there’s scant public evidence to support claims that Hillary Clinton had been “vindictive” against women linked to her husband.

Ironically, the same can’t be said of Trump: He publicly called Paula Jones, who settled a harassment suit against Bill Clinton, a “loser” and mocked Lewinsky’s appearance. As recently as a 2008 CNN interview, he called the conduct that led to Clinton’s impeachment “totally unimportant.”

nbcnews.com/politics/2016-election/trump-campaign-quietly-shouts-about-clinton-sex-scandals-n656466

Since Trump thought in 2008 that this issue is “totally unimportant,” why has he changed his mind?

 

[Sy_Noe]

According to the Catholic Church it can be a mortal sin and therefore detrimental to the soul for a woman to use contraceptives. If a person dies in unrepented mortal sin, then it is my understanding that the person will go to hell, which is the worst thing that can happen to someone.

Oh yes that is most definitely my understanding as well according to Catholic teaching. I certainly didn’t mean to imply otherwise. I did make it clear that women are not forced into their use. So by all means I would encourage women who hold this belief to follow this dictate and not go against their beliefs and only use contraceptives in the cases where it is acceptable for medical reasons as explained here by an apologist.

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