First Presidential Debate 9/26/16 Thread

[DeniseNY]

The Clintons and the Kennedys marriages kept their vows to each other, in the face of terrible marital hardships. Is this not what the Catholic Church teaches and desires?

That said, of course Mr. Trump is a family man. And his family includes three wives.

The Church actually recognizes that there are cases where a civil divorce can be warranted.

catholic.com/quickquestions/may-a-person-who-is-divorced-but-not-remarried-receive-communion

 

[kat07]

Perhaps he told them not to make the same mistakes he did. Something like - you know I messed up big time - and I did not even have the anonymity of the average Joe because of my position in the community.

So basically don’t commit the crime of rape and if you do, well sorry dear I know it’s because of your position in the public eye. It’s a well known fact Bill sexually abused Eileen Wellstone while he was at Oxford as a young man and is the reason why he was kicked out. He was also accused of sexually assaulting a women while at Yale Law. The list goes on. This is way more about just infidelity with Bill Clinton and it’s more about Hillary being labeled as a poor victim.

 

[Hoosier_Daddy]

No…
The Catholic Church teaches that marital infidelity is breaking your vows.

Let’s be fair. Infidelity does not invalidate a marriage.

I suppose serial and constant infidelity could be used by a marriage tribunal to judge marriage was null if the infidelity was constant at the time of vows.,

But I don’t think any of us should feel comfortable with judging others marriages. Including mr Trump here.

I think this is going beyond what is permitted on caf.

How did we get here?

 

[I_trust]

Let’s be fair. Infidelity does not invalidate a marriage.

I suppose serial and constant infidelity could be used by a marriage tribunal to judge marriage was null if the infidelity was constant at the time of vows.,

But I don’t think any of us should feel comfortable with judging others marriages. Including mr Trump here.

I think this is going beyond what is permitted on caf.

How did we get here?

She/He asserted that Clinton and JFK did not break their marriage vows and Trump did…according to Catholic teaching. This is incorrect. No one said anything about the breaking of vows equating to an invalid marriage.

 

[meltzerboy]

She only did well stylistically
Not on substance,
Trump trumped her on substance and failed on his delivery.

I’m not sure either candidate did well on substance although I agree Hillary did better in her delivery.

I believe that most of the pundits don’t understand the psyche of much of the American people. They do NOT want a candidate who is slick, polished, even presidential sounding. What they want is a candidate who is different, unpredictable, and non-political. This is the public’s revolt against the establishment, and Hillary Clinton is perceived to be the epitome of an establishment candidate. Trump, on the other hand, for all his flaws, is exciting and speaks his mind, which is precisely what a lot of the public likes about him. If Trump is elected–and I am beginning to think this is a real possibility–it is guaranteed to be some ride. With Hillary, however, all we can expect is more of the same political maneuvering.

For the record, I do not support either candidate.

 

[kat07]

I’m not sure either candidate did well on substance although I agree Hillary did better in her delivery.

I believe that most of the pundits don’t understand the psyche of much of the American people. They do NOT want a candidate who is slick, polished, even presidential sounding. What they want is a candidate who is different, unpredictable, and non-political. This is the public’s revolt against the establishment, and Hillary Clinton is perceived to be the epitome of an establishment candidate. Trump, on the other hand, for all his flaws, is exciting and speaks his mind, which is precisely what a lot of the public likes about him. If Trump is elected–and I am beginning to think this is a real possibility–it is guaranteed to be some ride. With Hillary, however, all we can expect is more of the same political maneuvering.

For the record, I do not support either candidate.

Spot on!

 

[I_trust]

I’m not sure either candidate did well on substance although I agree Hillary did better in her delivery.

I believe that most of the pundits don’t understand the psyche of much of the American people. They do NOT want a candidate who is slick, polished, even presidential sounding. What they want is a candidate who is different, unpredictable, and non-political. This is the public’s revolt against the establishment, and Hillary Clinton is perceived to be the epitome of an establishment candidate. Trump, on the other hand, for all his flaws, is exciting and speaks his mind, which is precisely what a lot of the public likes about him. If Trump is elected–and I am beginning to think this is a real possibility–it is guaranteed to be some ride. With Hillary, however, all we can expect is more of the same political maneuvering.

For the record, I do not support either candidate.

Agreed.
I would add that Trump seems to connect with the American public far better than Clinton.
She is a far better debater.
But she is not empathetic.
Her husband was a master at connecting emotionally with the American public.

That is why she is seen as winning the debate by political pundits but the public may not have the same reaction. She may have won the debate and lost votes.

 

[Inisfallen]

I didn’t say I thought the divorces, etc, were okay. I said to the contrary.

I have never seen the pictures you’re talking about. Perhaps you could post them with the publications that had them. Reliable ones.

No, can’t be bothered to go back 20 years and search through the archives of the New York Daily News and the New York Post… But here in New York, where he lived, the Marla Maples thing was a big story (as were the nominally Catholic Rudy Giuliani’s infidelities), and it was indeed in the local papers. Probably wasn’t national news back then, though. You won’t believe it without seeing the papers? Fine, I don’t care. You don’t think the News and the Post are “reliable”? Also fine with me.

If, indeed, someone caught a photo of him with someone who was his mistress, I think it’s as bad as Bill Clinton publicly pictured with Monica Lewinsky with a cigar (perhaps the cigar in his mouth. And it’s every bit as bad as JFK in that film with Marilyn Monroe oozing all over him while singing “happy birthday” (why was he with HER on his birthday instead of his family?). And it’s just as bad as FDR “resting up” at Warm Springs with his mistress and everybody knowing it, including their children.

No doubt. But that’s very different from blaming Hillary Clinton for her husband’s infidelities. Because Bill Clinton, Franklin Roosevelt and John Kennedy cheated on their wives doesn’t make it OK for Donald Trump to do the same.

And Hillary Clinton should not be shamed for staying in her marriage. After all, we’re Catholics – one would think we’d respect her for it.

Trump, JFK, FDR, Bill Clinton and Hillary Clinton (for countenancing an “open marriage”) were all involved in immoral acts to the extent they were involved in infidelity. But Trump, JFK, FDR were not activists for the killing of children, which Hillary Clinton is. Do you really think those things are morally equivalent?

What I do not think are morally equivalent are actual cheating on one’s spouse, and being the spouse of a cheater.

Look, I’m not voting for Hillary Clinton. I never have. I didn’t in 2000 or 2006 or 2008 (in either primary or general elections), I didn’t vote for her this year in my state’s primary, and I won’t be in the general election. But that doesn’t mean I’m going to shame and attack her for something that my church would doubtless counsel her to do (i.e., stay in her marriage).

 

[Jeanne_S]

I’m not sure either candidate did well on substance although I agree Hillary did better in her delivery.

I believe that most of the pundits don’t understand the psyche of much of the American people. They do NOT want a candidate who is slick, polished, even presidential sounding. What they want is a candidate who is different, unpredictable, and non-political. This is the public’s revolt against the establishment, and Hillary Clinton is perceived to be the epitome of an establishment candidate. Trump, on the other hand, for all his flaws, is exciting and speaks his mind, which is precisely what a lot of the public likes about him. If Trump is elected–and I am beginning to think this is a real possibility–it is guaranteed to be some ride. With Hillary, however, all we can expect is more of the same political maneuvering.

For the record, I do not support either candidate.

Yes. Pretty much…

 

[I_trust]

I also hope those who want to turn this thread into attacks on the moral character of either candidate’s personal lives would refrain from doing so.

It is nasty and uncharitable.

 

[Expatreprocedit]

For those who laugh at the idea of Trump being a family man would probably describe JFK and Bill Clinton as family men despite the number of times each was guilty of being unfaithful to their wives. But that is the hypocrisy of the left.

I don’t think anyone on the left or right would seriously describe Bill Clinton as a family man.

As to JFK, he did show great love for his children. But he was a sexual addict and cheated on his wife on an almost daily basis.

 

[ProVobis]

You mean his substance about not paying taxes and then complaining that we have terrible infrastructure including airports like a third world country? Or the substance of why he kept pushing the birther stuff for years and years?

That’s how he built his base.

 

[YADA]

So basically don’t commit the crime of rape and if you do, well sorry dear I know it’s because of your position in the public eye. It’s a well known fact Bill sexually abused Eileen Wellstone while he was at Oxford as a young man and is the reason why he was kicked out. He was also accused of sexually assaulting a women while at Yale Law. The list goes on. This is way more about just infidelity with Bill Clinton and it’s more about Hillary being labeled as a poor victim.

I was responding to a poster discussing the role model Trump was to his sons due to Trumps infidelity …not Bill Clinton and not sure what you mean ,

I was acknowledging as another poster noted that Trump’s infidelity was tabloid news. Thus I imagined his children are and or were aware of that … I believe that Trump would want his children to avoid those same troubles and be faithful and have long lasting relationships …

I have been married twice … my first marriage ended in divorce - it is not something I am proud of - it is a constant reminder of my immaturity and failure …but the children I have from that marriage are not mistakes … they did have to suffer through it … and they had to grow and learn from it … Do I wish I had not brought that upon them? Yes … but also - my second marriage was was everything my first was not. Every thing I wish the first had been … It was Christ centered and full of love that holds fast during troubled times and happy wonderful times - where both of us pulled together as one - not pulling apart as individuals … I want my children to avoid those issues … not to make the same mistakes that I did … not being hypocritical - just wanting them to avoid the same pain - I love them …

We need to accept that people grow and change over time … that people can and do change …

Thus when Trump says he is pro-Life and would appoint pro-Life Justices … his stance may not be perfect - it maybe nuanced but I have - at this moment in time no reason to doubt that the man of today is not the same man from 10, 20 or 30 years ago …people can and do change …

Similarly, when Clinton says she will do everything in her power today to make abortion on demand a right, appoint pro-abortion justices and export abortion around the globe - I believe her … she too has changed and become even more radically pro-abortion … she has changed on same sex marriage - Now she is using a self proclaimed Catholic who tells people his faith is the foundation of his life for VP … but that VP has to openly promote abortion and same sex marriage in opposition to everything the Church teaches …

That is using someone’s faith to promote a political ideology - to get Catholics to think those positions are in line with Catholic teaching - that it is okay to dissent in matters like abortion … I find that practice condescending to the Church and Catholics everywhere … it worked for Obama with Biden … And its worked for the Democrat Party who likes to use many prominent pro-abortion Catholics to lead the faithful away from the Church - from Christ … always the photo op with a Pope or at a funeral somewhere receiving the Eucharist - and all the while voting for Abortion … repeal of the Hyde Amendment … etc … promising that they care for the poor - while passing legislation that destroys the family and keeps people in poverty … But Trump is Hitler … he divorced not one but two … and Hillary stood by Bill [while she work to destroy the women he slept with … sheesh]

 

[kat07]

No doubt. But that’s very different from blaming Hillary Clinton for her husband’s infidelities. Because Bill Clinton, Franklin Roosevelt and John Kennedy cheated on their wives doesn’t make it OK for Donald Trump to do the same.

And Hillary Clinton should not be shamed for staying in her marriage. After all, we’re Catholics – one would think we’d respect her for it.

Hillary was an active enabler, she wasn’t some poor victim. She publicly slandered, harassed and abused Bill’s victims. She demeaned and terrorized them and covered for Bill. Hillary hired Craig Livingston a barroom bouncer and well known Dem operative to put together a database on Bill’s other woman and victims. She hired Ivan Duda who admitted his job was to intimidate Bill’s victims. Ivan Duda said Hillary wanted him to give her the name and addresses of all of Bill’s girlfriends, so she could “get rid of all these “expletive” he’s seeing.” She hired Anthony Pellicano who was later arrested for illegal fire arms possession, and a long list of other felonies. She hired Jack Palladino who represented a developer for having sex with underage prostitutes because according to the developer “He needed someone like Jack who could go down and talk to these woman.” Loren Kirk who was Gennifer Flowers roommate even said she was approached by Jack Palladino and asked by him if Gennifer Flower was the kind of woman she thought would commit suicide! Dick Morris in 1992 even said Hillary had a entire team of Private Investigators building dossiers on Bill’s woman and victims. Hillary’s role with Bill’s women has been to deride, discredit and intimidate these women. She doesn’t blame the women who her husband has victimized instead she hires Private Investigators to threaten and harass them. She ridicules these women as “bimbos and low life trash.” Rather than to admit Bill abused these women she claims they abused Bill. Susan Thomases a pal of Hillary even is quoted as saying “tolerating Bill’s behavior has always been part of Hillary’s relationship with Bill”. When the abuse of another women was publically discovered Hillary’s role was to act outraged, although she always knew about Bills abusive behavior towards women since she met him at Yale. For a first lady to use Private Investigators with such shady backgrounds to do surveillance and intimidate Bills’ victims who may have come forward against him is unprecedented in American politics. I’m shocked any Catholic would praise Hillary, her behavior and her antics is not something that deserves any Catholic’s respect.

 

[Tomdstone]

She publicly slandered, harassed and abused Bill’s victims. She demeaned and terrorized them and covered for Bill.

True, and I don’t understand why Mr. Trump did not mention this and in addition, why he did not mention the fact that Hillary defended the rapist of a 12 year old and claimed it was the young girl’s fault that she was raped because the girl had a “tendency to seek out older men and engage in fantasizing.” In my personal opinion, a twelve year old girl who has been raped by a monster should not have to endure a slanderous attack on her character by Hillary Clinton.
Hillary says Mr. Trump has a bad record with women. Well, let’s take a closer look at her record.

 

[Sy_Noe]

Yes, why don’t people learn from history? Willful blindness and/or ignorance must be part of the explanation. I can only hope that the US is simply not white enough that history will repeat itself. If it doesn’t, we will have dodged the bullet narrowly.

As a bright spot, Hillary is leading among white college-educated women (a reversal from other Democratic candidates going back decades). It is unlikely that Trump helped himself with this demographic in the last debate – more likely the contrary.

Poll: After Debate, Women Think Less of Trump and Better of Clinton

27% of women who are likely to vote said the debate made them think worse of Trump.

30% said their opinion of Clinton had improved.

And Trump fared particularly poorly with independent women when they were asked if he has the temperament and personality to serve.

80% of independent female voters said he does not.

And from 2 undecided female voters in Ohio…

Joan Hume who voted for Trump in the Republican primary said, “I’m leaning more towards Hillary than I ever have before because of the debate.”

And Katheryn Fink said based on that first debate, “I would say I swing towards Clinton. I thought her owning up to some of her mistakes, that was pretty good.”

nbcnews.com/news/us-news/poll-after-debate-women-think-less-trump-better-clinton-n656321

 

[kat07]

True, and I don’t understand why Mr. Trump did not mention this and in addition, why he did not mention the fact that Hillary defended the rapist of a 12 year old and claimed it was the young girl’s fault that she was raped because the girl had a “tendency to seek out older men and engage in fantasizing.” In my personal opinion, a twelve year old girl who has been raped by a monster should not have to endure a slanderous attack on her character by Hillary Clinton.
Hillary says Mr. Trump has a bad record with women. Well, let’s take a closer look at her record.

Yes, Hillary’s comments about that girl was an early glimpse into the type of character of a sexual enabler. That rape case turned out to be a excellent preparation for Hillary as a lifelong advocacy of a single sex offender - Bill. Trump missed a lot of opportunities.

 

[Sy_Noe]

I understand Trump supporters would love to see Trump go after Hillary with regard to Bill’s affairs but his supporters are already voting for him anyway. He needs to broaden his support and I think bringing up the Clinton marriage could be a risk for him since Hillary stayed in her marriage while Trump has his own indiscretions and divorces.

Similar to going after the Clinton Foundation when now there are questions as to Trump’s Foundation in relation to his use of other people’s money to make purchases of a lifesize painting of himself and of a Tim Tebow autographed football helmet and jersey and the question of his donation to FL Attn General Pam Bondi and her subsequently not moving forward with a case against Trump University and his use of over a quarter of a million dollars of his foundation’s money to settle legal problems.

washingtonpost.com/politics/trump-used-258000-from-his-charity-to-settle-legal-problems/2016/09/20/adc88f9c-7d11-11e6-ac8e-cf8e0dd91dc7_story.html

As well as his comments about giving to Democrats including the Clintons, Chuck Schumer, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, and to Republican politicians as well… “I give to everybody." “When I need something from them, two years later, three years later, I call them, and they are there for me.”

Pay for play.

Strange how he complains about a broken system while he has been very much a part of that system.

nationalreview.com/article/430266/donald-trump-bribes-politicians-and-boasts-about-it

And now there is a report Trump did business in Cuba under Fidel Castro in violation of the US trade embargo even while calling on the embargo on U.S. trade with the island nation to continue.

sun-sentinel.com/news/sfl-report-trump-did-business-in-cuba-in-violation-of-trade-embargo-20160928-story.html

newsmax.com/Politics/newsweek-donald-trump-fidel-castro-cuba/2016/09/28/id/750744/

Maybe he should find some things to talk about in the next debate besides Hillary Clinton and overweight people.

 

[7_Sorrows]

I want to thank Robert Bay for lifting the restrictions on the number of political posts.
With the upcoming vice presidential debate and two more presidential debates it would be challenging to limit posts to 10!

Thanks Robert!

 

[Tomdstone]

Poll: After Debate, Women Think Less of Trump and Better of Clinton

27% of women who are likely to vote said the debate made them think worse of Trump.

30% said their opinion of Clinton had improved.

And Trump fared particularly poorly with independent women when they were asked if he has the temperament and personality to serve.

80% of independent female voters said he does not.

Mr. Trump has to show why he is better for women than Hillary. He should point out the rape case of a 12 year old, where Hillary said it was the fault of the 12 year old. Is that more favorable to female rape victims or to monster criminal rapists? Why did Hillary blame the girl who was a child victim for this horrible crime?