First Presidential Debate 9/26/16 Thread

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I think Hillary was definitely stronger in substance in various places. One place, ironically, was cyber security. Her answer showed she understood what the vulnerabilities were and who were the possible culprits. His answer was a ramble that mentioned the cyber being vulnerable to China and Russia and fat guys. And his son is good at computers. How could he have not prepared an answer that showed that Hillary was actually careless when it came to cyber security? :confused:

The other part where Hillary dominated in substance is when NATO was discussed. He suggested that China take out North Korea, and that Japan needs to pony up more money to be protected. Treaties don’t matter I guess. And a nuclear war in Asia is fine I guess, because Honda makes good cars that do well in the US.

On Twitter both Karl Reiner and Rob Reiner participate. Obviously Rob Reiner is a Hollywood Liberal. One point he made is that Trump sounds a lot like Archie Bunker.
Good point regarding substance.

Insofar as Rob Reiner’s comparison of Trump and Archie Bunker, they both grew up in Queens so, I suppose, the neighborhood environment was influential.
 
Well, I am not a Democrat, but I am certainly very anti-Trump. I have no problem saying that it was classless of Dean to say that. It was base and unfounded. When I first saw it, I assumed he was trying to parody the many Hillary health conspiracies out there. That would have been classless, but now it appears he is serious (or at least pretending to be serious). He should retract and apologize.

There have been similarly base, unfounded and classless attacks on Hillary, but (mostly) not coming from people directly tied to Trump. Dean is directly tied to Hillary. He should apologize, and/or she should say something herself.
Yes, Howard Dean was classless with his insinuation.
Kudos to you both for showing class. I don’t mind a hard-hitting campaign, and there is enough baggage on both candidates to play gotcha games and bring up the past, but some things just seem so immature and childish as to make the person making the claim seem sad and pathetic. I felt the same way when questions of Palin’s son’s parentage were raised, and when Chelsea Clinton’s looks were mocked. Come on. These were kids (at the time, anyway). Some folks need to grow up. Comparing Chelsea to a dog or claiming Trigg was really Bristol’s son is really sad.
 
I also hope those who want to turn this thread into attacks on the moral character of either candidate’s personal lives would refrain from doing so.

It is nasty and uncharitable.
Going forward…

Please report any posts that make personal attacks or are uncharitable. They are not allowed and I will suspend users who feel free to make such attacks upon candidates, supporters or members of CAF
 
Going forward…

Please report any posts that make personal attacks or are uncharitable. They are not allowed and I will suspend users who feel free to make such attacks upon candidates, supporters or members of CAF
Thank you. This thread was really degenerating.
 
Are you implying that lawyers should simply abandon all contact with true justice and morality when they “defend their clients in any way possible?” Does “any way possible” include immoral, unjust or dishonest means?

Clinton knew what she was saying about the young girl was untrue but said it anyway. She knew she could find a way around lie detection – proving her dishonest methods and knowledge that her client was indeed lying.

Since when is bypassing true justice an implicit aspect of the justice system?
Trying to introduce reasonable doubt into a case is not immoral, unjust, or dishonest. To say otherwise is silly.

Where’s the proof that she knew what she was saying about the victim was dishonest? Also, what do you consider bypassing true justice? As a defense attorney your responsibility is to your client. If a client admits guilt to a defense attorney, do you expect the defense attorney to help convict his/her own client? If so, the bar association would like to have a word with you, because you’ll no longer be practicing law.
 
Are you implying that lawyers should simply abandon all contact with true justice and morality when they “defend their clients in any way possible?” Does “any way possible” include immoral, unjust or dishonest means?

Clinton knew what she was saying about the young girl was untrue but said it anyway. She knew she could find a way around lie detection – proving her dishonest methods and knowledge that her client was indeed lying.

Since when is bypassing true justice an implicit aspect of the justice system?
What she did then doesn’t square with what she now says.
Back to Videos
Hillary to Sexual Assault Victims: “You Have The Right To Be Heard, You Have The Right To Be Believed”
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Posted on September 14, 2015
At a press conference held Monday in Cedar Falls, Iowa, Democratic presidential candidate Hillary Clinton addressed sexual assault on campus and how women should to respond to an attack.
“Today I want to send a message to every survivor of sexual assault,” Clinton said. "Don’t let anyone silence your voice. You have the right to be heard. You have the right to be believed and we’re with you."
(Bolding mine)

realclearpolitics.com/video/2015/09/14/hillary_clinton_women_should_be_believed_when_they_claim_rape_have_to_increase_prevention.html
 
I like the post limits as well. I wish they would reinstitute them and limit it to 5 political posts.
No, because there are too many political threads. I’d say 15. People will be more careful about what they post.
 
I love the rationalizations from the Trump crowd. One good turn deserves another, right?

It doesn’t matter what my guy did, so long as the clinton’s have done the same thing. Never mind the fact that they’re both wrong.
It’s actually pointing out the hypocrisy of the left.
 
Starting to see a bump in Hillary’s numbers. It is still early though

Election 2016 Clinton Trump Spread
RCP Poll Average 47.4 44.4 Clinton +3.0
4-Way RCP Average 43.9 41.0 Clinton +2.9 Trending Up
 
Trying to introduce reasonable doubt into a case is not immoral, unjust, or dishonest. To say otherwise is silly.

Where’s the proof that she knew what she was saying about the victim was dishonest? Also, what do you consider bypassing true justice? As a defense attorney your responsibility is to your client. If a client admits guilt to a defense attorney, do you expect the defense attorney to help convict his/her own client? If so, the bar association would like to have a word with you, because you’ll no longer be practicing law.
Basically you are saying the criminal justice system is a legal sparring contest. Nothing to do with serving justice.

dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2658801/I-never-trusted-polygraph-Hillary-Clinton-LAUGHS-recalls-helped-suspected-child-rapist-walk-free-prosecution-lost-crucial-evidence.html
‘I had him take a polygraph, which he passed – which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs,’ she says with a laugh.
 
I love the rationalizations from the Trump crowd. One good turn deserves another, right?

It doesn’t matter what my guy did, so long as the clinton’s have done the same thing. Never mind the fact that they’re both wrong.
So does the fact that they are both wrong entail that we ought to entirely ignore their failings and vote for one over the other irrespective of which has demonstrated greater moral failings?

Do keep in mind that one or the other will be elected president and discerning their true moral characters is a crucial aspect of deciding which is more likely to be a better president or – to put it in more correct terms – which is less likely to do irreparable damage to the country.

When the moral characters of both candidates are placed side by side, there is no contest. What you call the “rationalizations” of the Trump crowd amount to a refusal to set proportionality aside.

What the Clintons did and do with regard to Haiti, Benghazi, Middle East policy, selling American policy to the highest bidder, cronyism and “fixing” the system are in no way proportional to what Trump has done. You have to be legally, politically and morally blind to not see that.

Let’s just take one issue raised by Hillary herself: Trump’s apparent support for the Iraq War. She wants to make an issue of it. The truth is that Trump, before the war started made an off-the-cuff statement of support on the Howard Stern Show, but added at that time a proviso that this was a tentative position he was expressing. A while later, still before the war started, he came out firmly against it. Now Hilary wants to hold his initial views against him even though he expressed opposition even before the war started. That is disingenuous.

Contrast that to Clinton who, as a senator from New York with real political power, voted for the war when as a politician her voiced approval actually made a political difference. Yet, she wants everyone to ignore the fact that her views – when it really mattered – made a material difference to going to war, when Trump’s views, as a private citizen, made no discernible difference and, in fact, changed to opposition before the critical decision was made by senators (like Clinton,) congress, and the president.

Her views mattered and they were expressly FOR the war AND contributed to going to war. Trump’s view didn’t have any political force and yet she wants to hold his feet to the fire on this? That is truly ridiculous and the fact that Clinton fans cannot admit this demonstrates a great deal about who is actually doing the “rationalizing.”

This depiction on Trump’s view regarding the Iraq War is not a “rationalization.” It is the correct view on the matter.

The same can be done for almost every issue where Trump and Clinton are concerned. No “rationalization” is required, just an honest appraisal of the truth.
 
Basically you are saying the criminal justice system is a legal sparring contest. Nothing to do with serving justice.
'I had him take a polygraph, which he passed – which forever destroyed my faith in polygraphs
More like “forever destroyed my faith in the truth, instilling in me a faith in the power of lying.”
 
So does the fact that they are both wrong entail that we ought to entirely ignore their failings and vote for one over the other irrespective of which has demonstrated greater moral failings?

Do keep in mind that one or the other will be elected president and discerning their true moral characters is a crucial aspect of deciding which is more likely to be a better president or – to put it in more correct terms – which is less likely to do irreparable damage to the country.

When the moral characters of both candidates are placed side by side, there is no contest. What you call the “rationalizations” of the Trump crowd amount to a refusal to set proportionality aside.

What the Clintons did and do with regard to Haiti, Benghazi, Middle East policy, selling American policy to the highest bidder, cronyism and “fixing” the system are in no way proportional to what Trump has done. You have to be legally, politically and morally blind to not see that.

Let’s just take one issue raised by Hillary herself: Trump’s apparent support for the Iraq War. She wants to make an issue of it. The truth is that Trump, before the war started made an off-the-cuff statement of support on the Howard Stern Show, but added at that time a proviso that this was a tentative position he was expressing. A while later, still before the war started, he came out firmly against it. Now Hilary wants to hold his initial views against him even though he expressed opposition even before the war started. That is disingenuous.

Contrast that to Clinton who, as a senator from New York with real political power, voted for the war when as a politician her voiced approval actually made a political difference. Yet, she wants everyone to ignore the fact that her views – when it really mattered – made a material difference to going to war, when Trump’s views, as a private citizen, made no discernible difference and, in fact, changed to opposition before the critical decision was made by senators (like Clinton,) congress, and the president.

Her views mattered and they were expressly FOR the war AND contributed to going to war. Trump’s view didn’t have any political force and yet she wants to hold his feet to the fire on this? That is truly ridiculous and the fact that Clinton fans cannot admit this demonstrates a great deal about who is actually doing the “rationalizing.”

This depiction on Trump’s view regarding the Iraq War is not a “rationalization.” It is the correct view on the matter.

The same can be done for almost every issue where Trump and Clinton are concerned. No “rationalization” is required, just an honest appraisal of the truth.
You can’t be serious about pinning the entirety of the Iraq war on Clinton…

The Iraq Resolution was passed 77/23 in the senate and was supported by every single Republican with the exception of now democrat Lincoln Chafee. Clinton voting Nea wouldn’t have changed the outcome. All you’ve done is indict every single republican in the senate, as well as George Bush for their support.
 
So does the fact that they are both wrong entail that we ought to entirely ignore their failings and vote for one over the other irrespective of which has demonstrated greater moral failings?

Do keep in mind that one or the other will be elected president and discerning their true moral characters is a crucial aspect of deciding which is more likely to be a better president or – to put it in more correct terms – which is less likely to do irreparable damage to the country.

When the moral characters of both candidates are placed side by side, there is no contest. What you call the “rationalizations” of the Trump crowd amount to a refusal to set proportionality aside.

What the Clintons did and do with regard to Haiti, Benghazi, Middle East policy, selling American policy to the highest bidder, cronyism and “fixing” the system are in no way proportional to what Trump has done. You have to be legally, politically and morally blind to not see that.

Let’s just take one issue raised by Hillary herself: Trump’s apparent support for the Iraq War. She wants to make an issue of it. The truth is that Trump, before the war started made an off-the-cuff statement of support on the Howard Stern Show, but added at that time a proviso that this was a tentative position he was expressing. A while later, still before the war started, he came out firmly against it. Now Hilary wants to hold his initial views against him even though he expressed opposition even before the war started. That is disingenuous.

Contrast that to Clinton who, as a senator from New York with real political power, voted for the war when as a politician her voiced approval actually made a political difference. Yet, she wants everyone to ignore the fact that her views – when it really mattered – made a material difference to going to war, when Trump’s views, as a private citizen, made no discernible difference and, in fact, changed to opposition before the critical decision was made by senators (like Clinton,) congress, and the president.

Her views mattered and they were expressly FOR the war AND contributed to going to war. Trump’s view didn’t have any political force and yet she wants to hold his feet to the fire on this? That is truly ridiculous and the fact that Clinton fans cannot admit this demonstrates a great deal about who is actually doing the “rationalizing.”

This depiction on Trump’s view regarding the Iraq War is not a “rationalization.” It is the correct view on the matter.

The same can be done for almost every issue where Trump and Clinton are concerned. No “rationalization” is required, just an honest appraisal of the truth.
I think one person’s “honest appraisal of the truth” is another person’s “rationalization.” If Trump cannot be held accountable for his political views due to the fact he has held no political office, would you then say that his business ethics are fair game for Hillary to criticize, as she has? Would you also agree that a deficiency of ethics in one’s business practices has a strong possibility of carrying over into the world of politics? Or do you prefer to “rationalize” Trump’s business ethics rather than offer an “honest appraisal of the truth”?

I have said this several times before but I will repeat: with regard to ethical values on a larger social scale, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are like two peas in a pod.
 
You can’t be serious about pinning the entirety of the Iraq war on Clinton…

The Iraq Resolution was passed 77/23 in the senate and was supported by every single Republican with the exception of now democrat Lincoln Chafee. Clinton voting Nea wouldn’t have changed the outcome. All you’ve done is indict every single republican in the senate, as well as George Bush for their support.
A lot of people supported the war, and many still do. I don’t think that’s the real issue. To me, the real issue is the condition this administration left it in. Despite Hillary’s statement about it in the debate, the pullout was not mandated by Bush. A new status of forces agreement could have been made. Maliki and the Iraqi parliament were both willing, along with the Kurds, the Sunni tribal chiefs and Ayatollah Sistani, then the leader of most of the Shia. Obama didn’t want one, and said so in his debate with Romney. Obama and Biden then claimed 'victory" in Iraq and pulled out despite the please of the Iraqis and the advice of the Joint Chiefs and his own CIA director.

And then, she started another war in Libya and handed yet another country over to terrorists. And then ran guns to people about whom the administration knew nothing in Syria, postured there without effect, and left the field to Russia, Iran, Sunni radicals and others to fight over. And we have seen the disastrous results.

That’s the real significance of Hillary’s vote for the war. If one favors starting a war, one should be resolved to stay steady end it well, not start it and then run away, as happened in Iraq, Libya and Syria.

And she likewise supported the deposition of Mubarak and the ascendency of the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, then opposed Al Sisi’s rescue of the country.

Her “experience” in the Middle East has entirely been aiding conflicts, then handing the place to terrorists.
 
I have said this several times before but I will repeat: with regard to ethical values on a larger social scale, Donald Trump and Hillary Clinton are like two peas in a pod.
The difference being that Trump has not sold his country’s interests and influence for money.
 
I think Hillary was definitely stronger in substance in various places. One place, ironically, was cyber security. Her answer showed she understood what the vulnerabilities were and who were the possible culprits.
Which implies that she knew what she was doing when she used a private email server, destroyed devices and deleted thousands of emails.

So which story is correct?
  1. Her debate version: She is an expert on cyber security (with the implication that she uses that expertise to bury opponents, hide evidence, and sway public policy on behalf of wealthy clients.) Or…
  2. Her hearing version: She has no clue about cyber security (with the implication that she should not be trusted where national security issues are at stake because she is incompetent and forgetful.)
One version has to be false because they are logically contradictory.

Which would you suppose is true? Go ahead, pick your poison!

Either way, she is giving a misleading and false narrative.

By the way, she is being entirely deceptive on who were the “possible culprits.” Privately she knows who they were, publicly she tells a different story.
 
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