First visit to an Eastern Church?

[ConstantineTG]

Vespers is a different service, it is not the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I don’t know the level of Latinization of the UGCC, so my bet is the Russian Catholic one will be more Eastern. If they are like 5Loaves’ parish, then they will follow the OCA.

 

[Formosus]

Okay, so now that I have received first Holy communion, I am about ready to attend my first Vespers in the Eastern Catholic Church.

I have two churches in mind. Which would you recommend for first time attending vespers. Would both have identical liturgies?

Thanks.

St Michael’s_Russian (no pews)

St George- Ukrainian (pews)

Why go to just Vespers? To get the full experience one should go to Vespers, then to Matins and Divine Liturgy the next morning . If time is an issue, why not go to Divine Liturgy and receive Our Lord. Don’t get me wrong, vespers is a beautiful service as well, but sometimes its best to just jump in and go for the Divine Liturgy instead : ) .

If the UGCC church has vespers, its service would be similar (but perhaps a little bit shorter?) then the Russian parish. The Russians follow the OCA usage as Constantine so pointed out. So the music and minor things will be different.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Why go to just Vespers? To get the full experience one should go to Vespers, then to Matins and Divine Liturgy the next morning . If time is an issue, why not go to Divine Liturgy and receive Our Lord. Don’t get me wrong, vespers is a beautiful service as well, but sometimes its best to just jump in and go for the Divine Liturgy instead : ) .

If the UGCC church has vespers, its service would be similar (but perhaps a little bit shorter?) then the Russian parish. The Russians follow the OCA usage as Constantine so pointed out. So the music and minor things will be different.

Also chances are, in the UGCC you get to sit through the Litanies

 

[TrueLight]

Why go to just Vespers? To get the full experience one should go to Vespers, then to Matins and Divine Liturgy the next morning . If time is an issue, why not go to Divine Liturgy and receive Our Lord. Don’t get me wrong, vespers is a beautiful service as well, but sometimes its best to just jump in and go for the Divine Liturgy instead : ) .

If the UGCC church has vespers, its service would be similar (but perhaps a little bit shorter?) then the Russian parish. The Russians follow the OCA usage as Constantine so pointed out. So the music and minor things will be different.

Well, I attended an OCA DL months ago and was told, “You must come back for Vespers”

So I wanted to experience that.

 

[Formosus]

Well if that’s the case you should go back to the Oca church for vespers since they invited you.

 

[ciero]

I’d go with whichever one is closer, personally. They both have identical liturgies- The Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. And they likely have similar small “t” traditions (if I am wrong, my UGCC friends, please correct me!).

In any case just go and absorb. If you can, try and sing along. Keep your head out of the bulletin (I had a hard time doing that- Lutherans never follow something that isn’t in the bulletin ), and focus on what is going on. If you can, stand by someone who is willing to help you throughout. Wear comfy shoes

Other than that, I have no advice for you. Just go and experience- “Christ is in our midst!”

Having been to both of those churches I would recommen St. Michael’s. They serve a much more authentic Liturgy, NO Latinizations. St Georges still has low mass and a number of such silly things.

 

[5Loaves]

Okay, so now that I have received first Holy communion, I am about ready to attend my first Vespers in the Eastern Catholic Church.

God grant you many years! I’m so happy for you that your journey for reception* into* the Catholic Church has concluded … and that you are eagerly moving ahead with your ongoing formation.

I have two churches in mind. Which would you recommend for first time attending vespers. Would both have identical liturgies?

Thanks.

St Michael’s_Russian (no pews)

St George- Ukrainian (pews)

I’ve already expressed my Russian prejudice that your check out St Michael’s, and my envy that you can get there… LOL Their priest is active on the Byzcath Forum. I’m sure he’d be glad to hear from you.

Vespers is a different service, it is not the Divine Liturgy of St. John Chrysostom. I don’t know the level of Latinization of the UGCC, so my bet is the Russian Catholic one will be more Eastern. If they are like 5Loaves’ parish, then they will follow the OCA.

We do follow OCA for our DL and services but I don’t know what St Michael’s uses for their music and translation.

Well, I attended an OCA DL months ago and was told, “You must come back for Vespers”

So I wanted to experience that.

I agree with Formosus, you ought to go back for Vespers at the OCA. Maybe they will try to recruit you for their choir. The choir director at the OCA I frequent for Feastal Vigils approached me at Exaltation and asked was that my husband with the good tenor voice at the Dormition? They’re scouting for tenors.

St Michael’s shows that they do have Vespers. So you can take advantage of both places.

It looks like maybe St George Ukrainian doesn’t have Vespers. There are Ruthenians in NYC. Maybe one of them also has Vespers.

The only requirement is that you let us know when you go what it was like for you.

 

[TrueLight]

I agree with Formosus, you ought to go back for Vespers at the OCA. Maybe they will try to recruit you for their choir. The choir director at the OCA I frequent for Feastal Vigils approached me at Exaltation and asked was that my husband with the good tenor voice at the Dormition? They’re scouting for tenors.

Well, since I tried an Orthodox temple, I wanted to visit an Eastern Catholic church, in communion with Rome.

I understand the liturgy is pretty much identical right?

 

[ciero]

Well, since I tried an Orthodox temple, I wanted to visit an Eastern Catholic church, in communion with Rome.

I understand the liturgy is pretty much identical right?

St Michael’s would be identical to the OCA as they use the OCA books. God knows what you might get at St Georges…I’ve seen some pretty “unorthodox” things done there. St Georges tends to have the attitude that if your not Ukrainian your not welcome also. I like the fact that St Michael’s is so close to Chinatown and little Italy for a little snack after church but then again all the nice Ukrainian and Russian restaurants around St Georges…decisions, decisions!!! Have fun!

 

[5Loaves]

Well, since I tried an Orthodox temple, I wanted to visit an Eastern Catholic church, in communion with Rome.

I understand the liturgy is pretty much identical right?

I’m just advocating you go to both… not the same night. I love vespers.

Is there a ROCOR parish on the old calendar in NYC? Exaltation of the Cross is on Tu. next week. It’s such a wonderful Feastday you could take advantage of them being on the right calendar to celebrate that Feastday with them.

St Michael’s would be identical to the OCA as they use the OCA books. God knows what you might get at St Georges…I’ve seen some pretty “unorthodox” things done there. St Georges tends to have the attitude that if your not Ukrainian your not welcome also. I like the fact that St Michael’s is so close to Chinatown and little Italy for a little snack after church but then again all the nice Ukrainian and Russian restaurants around St Georges…decisions, decisions!!! Have fun!

St. George’s shows the Rosary on their schedule. This isn’t so unusual for Ukrainians. I have learned on this forum to appreciate/accept with an open heart the fact that many Ukrainians want to pray the Rosary and have Stations of the Cross. Here in SF they have vodka shots with Agape! We had champaign for our deacon’s birthday and anniversary of ordination. Is that a Latinization?

I’m happy to hear St. Michael’s uses OCA books, too. Please take some photos if/when you get there, TrueLight;. Our deacon had a long evening visit with their priest when they both were at Bishop Nicholas Samra’s Installation as Eparch last month.

 

[TrueLight]

Thanks everyone. Looks like it will be St Michael’s. So comfortable flats, here I come.

 

[ConstantineTG]

St. George’s shows the Rosary on their schedule. This isn’t so unusual for Ukrainians. I have learned on this forum to appreciate/accept with an open heart the fact that many Ukrainians want to pray the Rosary and have Stations of the Cross. Here in SF they have vodka shots with Agape! We had champaign for our deacon’s birthday and anniversary of ordination. Is that a Latinization?

Many alrady got rid of the Stations of the Cross. We actually replaced them with icons, so sometimes from afar one would still mistake them for Stations of the Cross but they’d be Holy Icons now. Some would have the 12 Great Feasts, in our Cathedral we have icons of Christ, the Theotokos and some saints and archangels.

Also we did one shot of vodka with the bishop when he hosted us for brunch on Easter. Yes, after fasting heavily the past couple of days and that morning I haven’t had anything but the Eucharist and its already almost noon (Matins began at 7am), the first thing we had is Vodka. Must be a Ukrainian thing

 

[Diakonia]

Okay, so now that I have received first Holy communion, I am about ready to attend my first Vespers in the Eastern Catholic Church.

I have two churches in mind. Which would you recommend for first time attending vespers. Would both have identical liturgies?

Thanks.

St Michael’s_Russian (no pews)

St George- Ukrainian (pews)

St Michael’s as first choice, without question. The current administrator there is a priest of the Eparchy of Newton of the Melkites, Father Economos Roman Russo.

If you live in NYC, you can worship with almost every EC and OC Church that has a presence in the US - either in the city itself or just outside of it:

Russian,
Melkite,
Ukrainian,
Ruthenian
Hungarian,
Romanian,
Italo-Greico-Albanian (occasionally - the mission doesn’t have a regular schedule)
Maronite,
Syro-Malabarese,
Syro-Malankara,
Coptic,
Armenian,
Syriac,
Ethiopian (occasionally - not served on a regular basis),
Eritrean (occasionally - not served on a regular basis).

About the only ones not represented are the Chaldeans.

 

[Hesychios]

…They both have identical liturgies- …

As much as I’d like to believe that, I doubt it. ‘Identical’ is not the word I’d be expecting.

 

[TrueLight]

As much as I’d like to believe that, I doubt it. ‘Identical’ is not the word I’d be expecting.

As they chanted in the movie “Grease”, tell me more, tell me more.

Oh about St Michaels, any dress code? I’m assuming a skirt and head covering? Will a mantilla be okay?

 

[Hesychios]

As they chanted in the movie “Grease”, tell me more, tell me more.

Basically, there are two issues.

The two jurisdictions (Russian Catholic and UGCC) follow two different recensions. That is not really a problem at all but it is worth pointing out. Most Russian Catholic parishes/missions follow the Nikonian (or Synodal) form (recension). The Ukrainian Catholics follow the Ruthenian recension.

The second issue is that the two groups have very different origins.

The Russian Catholic movement was very recent, at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries. In fact it was more of an intellectual movement, and not a mass movement, so the numbers have always been rather small. The Russian Catholics understood that they were not supposed to differ in practice from the Russian Orthodox, and this was confirmed for them by the Pope. A recent problem is that the movement has been so small that the Pope has not been naming bishops for them, however those clergy assigned to the task of caring for these people have generally been very serious about maintaining an authentic practice and are very studious on the subject.

The UGCC is rooted in the Union of Brest, about 450 years ago, and involved some entire dioceses from bishops to peasants. They very soon afterward found themselves being reformed, and several generation of bishops later (over 100 years) met at Zamosc to make some changes to their customary liturgical practices to (apparently) make the Ruthenian church worship more similar to the Latin of the day. Over the years additional changes were introduced and Latin private devotions as well.

One of these changes would be abbreviations in the liturgy to make for a speedier Mass (and thus more Masses on a weekend), and another was a general reduction of the Hours in the parishes, often replacing the Hours with an additional Mass.

Oh about St Michaels, any dress code? I’m assuming a skirt and head covering? Will a mantilla be okay?

Head covering should be fine, I should think your normal Sunday attire would be appropriate.

I have not been there, but as a Latin Catholic I used to visit the Belorussian mission in Chicago. Anyone who attends the Latin Catholic EF should dress the same way.

 

[ConstantineTG]

As they chanted in the movie “Grease”, tell me more, tell me more.

Oh about St Michaels, any dress code? I’m assuming a skirt and head covering? Will a mantilla be okay?

I’ve never seen anyone wear any head covering. I don’t think its part of the culture. I’ve seen those in the Chaldean Holy Qurbana wear head coverings because I know its a Middle Eastern thing.

 

[ciero]

I’ve never seen anyone wear any head covering. I don’t think its part of the culture. I’ve seen those in the Chaldean Holy Qurbana wear head coverings because I know its a Middle Eastern thing.

Head covering is a BIG part of TRADITIONAL Byzantine praxis. 20 years ago no woman in any Byzantine church would have thought of entering the church without covering their head. Unfortunately in todays world many if not most no longer cover. I don’t recall if the women at St. Michael’s covered their heads or not, but they certainly would not look askance at anyone who did.

 

[ciero]

Basically, there are two issues.

The two jurisdictions (Russian Catholic and UGCC) follow two different recensions. That is not really a problem at all but it is worth pointing out. Most Russian Catholic parishes/missions follow the Nikonian (or Synodal) form (recension). The Ukrainian Catholics follow the Ruthenian recension.

The second issue is that the two groups have very different origins.

The Russian Catholic movement was very recent, at the turn of the 19th-20th centuries. In fact it was more of an intellectual movement, and not a mass movement, so the numbers have always been rather small. The Russian Catholics understood that they were not supposed to differ in practice from the Russian Orthodox, and this was confirmed for them by the Pope. A recent problem is that the movement has been so small that the Pope has not been naming bishops for them, however those clergy assigned to the task of caring for these people have generally been very serious about maintaining an authentic practice and are very studious on the subject.

The UGCC is rooted in the Union of Brest, about 450 years ago, and involved some entire dioceses from bishops to peasants. They very soon afterward found themselves being reformed, and several generation of bishops later (over 100 years) met at Zamosc to make some changes to their customary liturgical practices to (apparently) make the Ruthenian church worship more similar to the Latin of the day. Over the years additional changes were introduced and Latin private devotions as well.

One of these changes would be abbreviations in the liturgy to make for a speedier Mass (and thus more Masses on a weekend), and another was a general reduction of the Hours in the parishes, often replacing the Hours with an additional Mass.

Head covering should be fine, I should think your normal Sunday attire would be appropriate.

I have not been there, but as a Latin Catholic I used to visit the Belorussian mission in Chicago. Anyone who attends the Latin Catholic EF should dress the same way.

When I said that there was no difference I meant between the Russian Catholic and OCA. Last time I was as St Michael’s (about 3 years ago now) they used OCA service books, just as Our Lady of Fatima Russian Catholic Church in San Francisco.

 

[ConstantineTG]

Head covering is a BIG part of TRADITIONAL Byzantine praxis. 20 years ago no woman in any Byzantine church would have thought of entering the church without covering their head. Unfortunately in todays world many if not most no longer cover. I don’t recall if the women at St. Michael’s covered their heads or not, but they certainly would not look askance at anyone who did.

How come that even in Eastern European videos, I never see it? Or am I missing something here?