First visit to an Eastern Church?

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I_Thirst said:
Is this true of marriage too?
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Under certain conditions you can get married by a priest of another rite using their rite. It would be very extraordinary though. For example, many Eastern Catholics have married in the Latin Rite because they have no access to their own Rite. Sometimes also because of ignorance. They have moved to a new country like the US or Canada, there is a church not too far away that is of their own Rite. But they have been attending the Latin Rite exclusively and have never changed canonical enrollment. Chances are the Latin Rite priest doesn’t know the rules and doesn’t even know the person getting married is Eastern Rite. This one happens quite often. But even if the priest does know, if there are no parishes of their sui juris Church nearby, then they would have to get married in the Latin Rite.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Under certain conditions you can get married by a priest of another rite using their rite. It would be very extraordinary though. For example, many Eastern Catholics have married in the Latin Rite because they have no access to their own Rite. Sometimes also because of ignorance. They have moved to a new country like the US or Canada, there is a church not too far away that is of their own Rite. But they have been attending the Latin Rite exclusively and have never changed canonical enrollment. Chances are the Latin Rite priest doesn’t know the rules and doesn’t even know the person getting married is Eastern Rite. This one happens quite often. But even if the priest does know, if there are no parishes of their sui juris Church nearby, then they would have to get married in the Latin Rite.
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Thanks for the thorough answer! 👍
 
Since ascription to an eparchy or diocese (incardination) is by the ritual of one’s own ritual Church, it requires an indult to use a different one. This occurs sometimes, such as when an eastern candidate for Holy Orders may be ordained by a Latin bishop for service in a Latin diocese or when there is no bishop of their own Church sui iuris where the candidate lives. The converse is also true, so an eastern bishop may ordain a Latin candidate for Holy Orders using the eastern ritual, with an indult. (The ordained do not change Church ascription through it, incardination is independent of that.)

Also, unless bi-ritual or indult of adaptation has been granted, each deacon, priest, or bishop must use the ritual of his ascribed ritual Church. (Faculties may be granted for marriage.)
 
ConstantineTG said:
Under certain conditions you can get married by a priest of another rite using their rite. It would be very extraordinary though. For example, many Eastern Catholics have married in the Latin Rite because they have no access to their own Rite. Sometimes also because of ignorance. They have moved to a new country like the US or Canada, there is a church not too far away that is of their own Rite. But they have been attending the Latin Rite exclusively and have never changed canonical enrollment. ** Chances are the Latin Rite priest doesn’t know the rules and doesn’t even know the person getting married is Eastern Rite. ** This one happens quite often. But even if the priest does know, if there are no parishes of their sui juris Church nearby, then they would have to get married in the Latin Rite.
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The problem which is very real is that in the Latin Church deacons are ordinary ministers for the Sacrament of Marriage and they preside at many marriages, in my Latin parish and others. An Eastern Catholic cannot ever be validly married by a deacon. The marriage is only valid when a priest presides.

A recent copy of one’s baptismal certificate is a normal requirement in marriage prep in the Latin Church and that would normally show in which Church sui juris one was baptized. However for those who were baptized in Eastern Europe during the Soviet era when such sacraments took place underground in someone’s living room etc. having an accurate idea of whether one was baptized Latin, Orthodox, EC… it’s next to impossible many times. My opinion is that when in doubt never have a deacon preside at the wedding of someone who could possibly have been baptized by an Orthodox or EC priest. The wedding with a Latin priest presiding could have problems with being licit if the correct permissions didn’t happen but at least it would be a sacramental i.e. valid marriage in the eyes of the Church.
 
5Loaves said:
The problem which is very real is that in the Latin Church deacons are ordinary ministers for the Sacrament of Marriage and they preside at many marriages, in my Latin parish and others. An Eastern Catholic cannot ever be validly married by a deacon. The marriage is only valid when a priest presides.

A recent copy of one’s baptismal certificate is a normal requirement in marriage prep in the Latin Church and that would normally show in which Church sui juris one was baptized. However for those who were baptized in Eastern Europe during the Soviet era when such sacraments took place underground in someone’s living room etc. having an accurate idea of whether one was baptized Latin, Orthodox, EC… it’s next to impossible many times. My opinion is that when in doubt never have a deacon preside at the wedding of someone who could possibly have been baptized by an Orthodox or EC priest. The wedding with a Latin priest presiding could have problems with being licit if the correct permissions didn’t happen but at least it would be a sacramental i.e. valid marriage in the eyes of the Church.
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And sometimes it happens because no one cares to pursue the proper procedures or know what is the actual canoncial ascription of a person. But at the end of the day, its all legal mumbo jumbo and if the person follows the Church, they have committed no wrong.
 
ConstantineTG said:
And sometimes it happens because no one cares to pursue the proper procedures or know what is the actual canoncial ascription of a person. But at the end of the day, its all legal mumbo jumbo and if the person follows the Church, they have committed no wrong.
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Most certainly the faithful in that case have done nothing wrong.

I was only saying that if the circumstances were to occur, and I don’t doubt it has at times, when an EC marries in a Latin Church and a deacon, not a priest, presides at the wedding the marraige is invalid according to EC (and Orthodox) canon law, so according to the Church they are not married.
 
5Loaves said:
Most certainly the faithful in that case have done nothing wrong.

I was only saying that if the circumstances were to occur, and I don’t doubt it has at times, when an EC marries in a Latin Church and a deacon, not a priest, presides at the wedding the marraige is invalid according to EC (and Orthodox) canon law, so according to the Church they are not married.
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Well, most RCs are probably invalidly married anyway and they do not find out until they file for annulment and the tribunal reviews. But thats another, longer discussion.
 
I_Thirst said:
Really? That’s a lot of marriages. :confused:
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Sorry, just a passing comment. Its somewhat troubling that a lot of people do get annulments, it means many get married with defective intent or form which results in invalid marriages. Sometimes its troubling to think that one may have unintentionally invalidated one’s marriage without being aware of it. And that you’ll only find out when questions about your marriage arise and its brought before a tribunal.

For me I’d like the way the East makes marriages more definite and leaves no questions about it.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Sometimes its troubling to think that one may have unintentionally invalidated one’s marriage without being aware of it. And that you’ll only find out when questions about your marriage arise and its brought before a tribunal.
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Just to be clear, the only time questions are brought before the tribunal about a marriage is after a civil divorce has been completed and then the civilly divorced husband or wife brings the case to the tribunal desiring a decree of nullity in order to be free to marry.
 
5Loaves said:
Just to be clear, the only time questions are brought before the tribunal about your marriage is after a civil divorce had been completed and the husband or wife brings the case to the tribunal desiring a decree of nullity in order to be free to marry.
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5Loaves said:
Just to be clear, the only time questions are brought before the tribunal about a marriage is after a civil divorce has been completed and then the civilly divorced husband or wife brings the case to the tribunal desiring a decree of nullity in order to be free to marry.
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Of course, thats what I mean. Sometimes I want to bring my marriage before a tribunal to test it. And if it proves null and void, well its fine. We’re getting married for real in the Byzantine Rite 😉
 
5Loaves said:
The problem which is very real is that in the Latin Church deacons are ordinary ministers for the Sacrament of Marriage and they preside at many marriages, in my Latin parish and others. An Eastern Catholic cannot ever be validly married by a deacon. The marriage is only valid when a priest presides.

A recent copy of one’s baptismal certificate is a normal requirement in marriage prep in the Latin Church and that would normally show in which Church sui juris one was baptized. However for those who were baptized in Eastern Europe during the Soviet era when such sacraments took place underground in someone’s living room etc. having an accurate idea of whether one was baptized Latin, Orthodox, EC… it’s next to impossible many times. My opinion is that when in doubt never have a deacon preside at the wedding of someone who could possibly have been baptized by an Orthodox or EC priest. The wedding with a Latin priest presiding could have problems with being licit if the correct permissions didn’t happen but at least it would be a sacramental i.e. valid marriage in the eyes of the Church.
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Roman “Deacons” can Never Marry a couple, nor have ANY Sacramental Powers except Baptism, when authorized by a Priest. Baptism is into Holy Trinity Christianity, Not into A Church. The Parents have responsibility to raise/teach Into Church Rites/Practise.
 
ConstantineTG said:
Sorry, just a passing comment. Its somewhat troubling that a lot of people do get annulments, it means many get married with defective intent or form which results in invalid marriages. Sometimes its troubling to think that one may have unintentionally invalidated one’s marriage without being aware of it. And that you’ll only find out when questions about your marriage arise and its brought before a tribunal.

For me I’d like the way the East makes marriages more definite and leaves no questions about it.
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One can Not Unintentionally Invalidate a Marriage. A Mariage is either Valid or Not ab initio and the responsibility of The Couple, Who Perform the Marriage. They were Qualified For Marriage by a Priest, then Sacramentally Blessed Formally by him.
 
OK AntalKalnoky

Let’s stop splitting hairs .

you said
Roman “Deacons” can Never Marry a couple
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Yes we all know that a Roman Latin] couple give the Sacrament of Marriage to each other - BUT they need a witness to this should they marry in the Church. That clerical Witness is either a Priest OR a Deacon - it has to be a cleric in Major Orders .
 
ConstantineTG said:
Under certain conditions you can get married by a priest of another rite using their rite. It would be very extraordinary though. For example, many Eastern Catholics have married in the Latin Rite because they have no access to their own Rite. Sometimes also because of ignorance. They have moved to a new country like the US or Canada, there is a church not too far away that is of their own Rite. But they have been attending the Latin Rite exclusively and have never changed canonical enrollment. Chances are the Latin Rite priest doesn’t know the rules and doesn’t even know the person getting married is Eastern Rite. This one happens quite often. But even if the priest does know, if there are no parishes of their sui juris Church nearby, then they would have to get married in the Latin Rite.
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Orthodox and Roman Church are different Rites, details of the One Sacramental Church founded by Christ. We have the Same Aopstolic Power Sacraments, but we need to follow the “Rite” rules, which are the responsibility of The Priest. If the Couple are Qualified to Marry, and their Marriage is “Blessed Sacramentally” by the Priest, They Marry each Other. The Marriage is Sacramental and Valid lifetime. Their Rite not available Still leaves the Marriage Valid and Sacramental: Teaching of Each Rite. A marriage is Valid Until Declared Never to have existed in the Roman Church, if an Essential/Basic Requirement is missing. There is nothing “Casual” about the Very Formal/Detailed Marriage Essentials Examination, equated to a Trial, with even a devil’s advocate. The focus is to try to Validate the Marriage, Not to invalidate it. The Love of God with you, brother. Vivat Jesu. Antal.
 
The_Idiot said:
OK AntalKalnoky

Let’s stop splitting hairs .

you said

Yes we all know that a Roman Latin] couple give the Sacrament of Marriage to each other - BUT they need a witness to this should they marry in the Church. That clerical Witness is either a Priest OR a Deacon - it has to be a cleric in Major Orders .
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Am speaking of ** Sacramental** Marriage :highprayer:, friend. Deacons do Not have Sacramental Powers Per Se, except in Emergencies in Some Cases, to my knowledge. Your Humility in your SN is Greatly appreciated, and shows True Humility In Christ, friend. Intended redundancy. :tiphat::clapping:
 
AntalKalnoky said:
Am speaking of ** Sacramental** Marriage :highprayer:, friend. Deacons do Not have Sacramental Powers Per Se, except in Emergencies in Some Cases, to my knowledge. Your Humility in your SN is Greatly appreciated, and shows True Humility In Christ, friend. Intended redundancy. :tiphat::clapping:
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AntalKalnoky

I realise that English is possibly not your first language BUT

I repeat :- in the Roman Catholic Church a couple may celebrate the** Sacrament** of Marriage , giving it to each other. It is not Sacramental UNLESS it is witnessed by a Cleric in Major Orders.

What are Major Orders - a Priest and a Deacon either transitional or permanent ].

This does however NOT apply to the Eastern Catholic Churches - there the Marriage / Crowning has to be celebrated by a Priest.

Since you are so clearly sceptical I suggest you check with your local RC Chancery
 
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