First Youth Mass Tonight

[anamchara]

Of course nowhere in the Roman liturgy does hand-clapping appear as a part of the service. Even the 1977 Zairean Usage as published does not mention it.

Then again, some people will justify almost anything.

If it’s not allowed than my Bishop would be have us stop. Would like to call him personally and ask him why we are clapping in our parish during the youth Mass? Seriously. I’d be happy to PM you and give you my diocese.

 

[AlexV]

Naive, aren’t you?

So now we’re arguing that so long as bishop allows something, it’s okay?

That’s certainly naive…because it implies a bishop is always right, a bishop will always stop reprobated practices, etc.

A woman regularly preached the homily at the chapel at my college. Once, the local ordinary was the celebrant. He never stopped the practicing of lay preaching, DESPITE its not being allowed.

Just because your bishop allows something does not make it a part of the Roman Rite, or an acceptable liturgical practice.

 

[Joysong]

You’re welcome, Anamchara.

If anyone doesn’t think the clapping was the right thing then say so and give Church documentation on it.

I’m with you there. I would also appreciate seeing it in official black and white. You’re right — it is notably absent from these threads.

As for Bishops, they are the overseers of their respective diocesan liturgies, and I still haven’t seen the proof they are wrong on this issue.

 

[AlexV]

They are indeed overseers. They are not gods. They are overseers, but that does NOT mean everything they allow in their territories is automatically okay just because they say so.

 

[cmudd]

This is all a bit ridiculous. Although clapping has become commonplace at youth masses and at different times during the mass, it is what we call a “creeper.” While it is not specifically forbidden by the rubrics, it is also not called for. And as you may or may not be aware, the rubrics of the mass are prescriptive. If they don’t call for something, it is not to be done.

A “Creeper” is something that slowly becomes part of the liturgy even though it is not called for, and in some cases, forbidden. I would not say that people who hold hands during the Our Father are doing something intrinsically evil, but it is technically a forbidden practice precisely because it is not part of the rubrics. Like clapping, it distracts from the solemn nature of the Catholic mass. Like clapping, it is a foreign, nebulous, and unnecessary symbol/expression added to the mass. It is often an imposition on the many faithful who are not interested in doing it.

A children’s mass is supposed to be performed in such a way that children or those with diminished faculties can understand the prayer of the mass. It was never meant to be a license for liturgical innovators to turn masses for teens and college students into gross exercises in banality.

The mass for children and the mass for adults are the same thing. They should both be solemn events. Because I am in high school or college does not mean that I need to be entertained when I go to mass, nor is it an exercise meant to get my energy going, nor is it a simple act of community. That is not what the mass is!!!

I feel bad for those young people who are lead to believe that they need mass to be an expression of “their own culture and interests.”

I am not, however, stating that these people are doing anything malicious. I also do not think there is anything wrong trying to educate the young OP.

 

[pnewton]

You’re missing my point, I think. Prayerful “warming up” and musical warming up are two different things. Was there any time for prayer before Mass? Was it suggested to them? Or was there mingling and talking until the warm-up began, followed by Mass?

No, I understand. Music and prayer are not contradictory. I like quiet before Mass myself, but it is not the only type of prayer. He who sings prays twice. I know of nothing that would violate Church teaching having music up until the time of Mass. If I were ever tasked to such a job, I would make the time before Mass more contemplative. But for many, music is a very high form of prayer.

The reason I like this idea, is that it is my back up plan if we ever get stuck with a group of praise and worship folks that I am told to accomadate. I do not want to intrude on the Mass and I othink it would be a fine compromise that does not contradict the GIRM.

And before anyone says anything, yes, I feel equally strong about accomodating traditionalists.

 

[japhy]

I like quiet before Mass myself, but it is not the only type of prayer. He who sings prays twice. I know of nothing that would violate Church teaching having music up until the time of Mass.

I agree that music is a form of prayer… although “he who sings prays twice” depends very strongly on just what is being sung. I sure wasn’t praying – not even once – back in my Metallica years.

And as far as having music being played/performed/sung in the body of the church up until the time for Mass to begin, at the very least, the Pope suggested it in his encyclical Sacramentum Caritatis: “Active participation in the eucharistic liturgy can hardly be expected if one approaches it superficially, without an examination of his or her life. This inner disposition can be fostered, for example, by recollection and silence for at least a few moments before the beginning of the liturgy, by fasting and, when necessary, by sacramental confession.” (n. 55) While he does not say there cannot be music or singing going on, it does follow logically that the people, silently preparing themselves, would not be actively singing at that time. The organist could be playing (or the choir singing/chanting) before Mass, but it would have to be tasteful, appropriate, and something that would permit the people to pray peacefully in silence.

 

[benedictgal]

I agree that music is a form of prayer… although “he who sings prays twice” depends very strongly on just what is being sung. I sure wasn’t praying – not even once – back in my Metallica years.

And as far as having music being played/performed/sung in the body of the church up until the time for Mass to begin, at the very least, the Pope suggested it in his encyclical Sacramentum Caritatis: “Active participation in the eucharistic liturgy can hardly be expected if one approaches it superficially, without an examination of his or her life. This inner disposition can be fostered, for example, by recollection and silence for at least a few moments before the beginning of the liturgy, by fasting and, when necessary, by sacramental confession.” (n. 55) While he does not say there cannot be music or singing going on, it does follow logically that the people, silently preparing themselves, would not be actively singing at that time. The organist could be playing (or the choir singing/chanting) before Mass, but it would have to be tasteful, appropriate, and something that would permit the people to pray peacefully in silence.

That is very true. I personally enjoy have some silence before Mass, especially if I’m going to serve as lector. Even though I review the readings at home, it still helps to have some quiet time to pray and reflect. If I get there early enough, I’ll quietly pray the Angelus (depending on what time of day it is) or try to settle down interiorly.

So, having some silence before Mass is a good way to prepare for the Sacred Mysteries that are about to unfold before us. It also helps send the message to young people that something greater than themselves is about to happen. In fact, due to the fact that the feed from the Centro Televiso Vaticano came in rather early for the Solemnity of Epiphany Mass, I got to see the folks as they were gathering for Mass. Now, it could be that the sound was muffled, but, the body language was rather telling. You could see little, if no conversations occuring. While the Cardinals greeted each other, each one then recollected himself quietly afterwards. Then, the minute the bell rang and the procession began, all you could hear was the choir singing.

 

[pnewton]

This inner disposition can be fostered, for example, by recollection and silence for at least a few moments before the beginning of the liturgy, by fasting and, when necessary, by sacramental confession."

Those are good examples of what can be done, but they are listed as examples. I do think a few minutes of silence would be an excellent way to provide transition from one thing to another.

 

[anamchara]

Naive, aren’t you?

So now we’re arguing that so long as bishop allows something, it’s okay?

That’s certainly naive…because it implies a bishop is always right, a bishop will always stop reprobated practices, etc.

A woman regularly preached the homily at the chapel at my college. Once, the local ordinary was the celebrant. He never stopped the practicing of lay preaching, DESPITE its not being allowed.

Just because your bishop allows something does not make it a part of the Roman Rite, or an acceptable liturgical practice.

Naive? Give me a break. I’m not falling for it. Nice try Alex I don’t think so. You know full well that Bishops can either have their faithful stand or kneel and they can also allow either no female alter servers or allow them as in the example of the Nebraska Bishop who has opted not to have any female alter servers. You are looking for an abuse when their isn’t one. And your example about a women regularly preaching the homily is so far out in the left field it’s unbelievable. Reaching for an extreme, Alex to prove your point, is just weak but again nice try.

Clapping to music in a youth Mass is not an abuse. I get so sick of this tired old song and dance. As soon as someone says “oh we clapped” out come the traditionalists assuming they are stompin’, yelling and probably throwing the host around.

 

[AlexV]

Female preaching happens, with episcopal permission. Doesn’t make it right.

And yes, bishops can permit female altar servers. They can regulate SOME kneeling in the liturgy, not all (e.g., they can’t ban kneeling at the Consecration, which is a universal norm in the Roman Rite).

“Clapping” during the liturgy is only mentioned when applause is called for to mark congregational assent at, e.g., ordinations and certain other occasions. It is clearly mentioned in the rubrics.

It’s not mentioned for regular liturgical use.

 

[anamchara]

Female preaching happens, with episcopal permission. Doesn’t make it right.

And yes, bishops can permit female altar servers. They can regulate SOME kneeling in the liturgy, not all (e.g., they can’t ban kneeling at the Consecration, which is a universal norm in the Roman Rite).

“Clapping” during the liturgy is only mentioned when applause is called for to mark congregational assent at, e.g., ordinations and certain other occasions. It is clearly mentioned in the rubrics.

It’s not mentioned for regular liturgical use.

The Rubrics are instructions for the Priest period, not for us. But please post it here where it says in the rubrics, clearly, that is NO clapping allowed. I would like to read this.

 

[childofmary1143]

The Rubrics are instructions for the Priest period, not for us. But please post it here where it says in the rubrics, clearly, that is is NO clapping. I would like to read this.

The Rubrics are for all.

 

[pnewton]

The Rubrics are for all.

usccb.org/liturgy/current/revmissalisromanien.shtml
There is a section on the people of God, as well as for other ministers.

 

[Joysong]

Anamchara:

But please post it here where it says in the rubrics, clearly, that is NO clapping allowed. I would like to read this.

Anybody capable of responding to this? I have seen opinions claiming it is the Church’s position to abstain from all clapping,

Since this is being done by the OP only within the context of a hymn,

And only prior to the liturgy, and in the closing hymn after the liturgy has concluded with “go, the mass is ended,”

And to understand these contenders’ position,

I have uncovered absolutely no documentation to confirm or deny their statements.

Why would anyone assert what the Church has not stated without backing up their words? If they cannot back them up, shouldn’t that one refrain from his assertion and simply say, “it is my opinion that …”?

 

[AlexV]

The rubrics also do not ANYWHERE state explicitly that the 1962 Missal cannot be used for every single Mass in a given church. It is possible to read the rubrics from both 2002 and 1962 Missals, and Summorum Pontificum, and conclude that every single Mass COULD be 1962, if the pastor so desired and legalistically arranged the schedule (e.g., one Sunday Mass only, etc., etc.).

I doubt “Joysong” and “Anamchara” would approve.

The rubrics also do not ANYWHERE state explicitly that people couldn’t get up and do jumping jacks at the Consecration.

 

[AlexV]

And indeed, rubrics are for us ALL, not just the priest. How clericalist of you to assert otherwise!

In any case, one can always write a dubium to Rome, and then, as several California bishops have on occasion done, disobey the response.

 

[japhy]

Anybody capable of responding to this? I have seen opinions claiming it is the Church’s position to abstain from all clapping,

The only document I’ve noticed the word “clap” or “clapping” in is Varietates Legitimae from 1994, the Fourth Instruction for the orderly carrying out of Sacrosanctum Concilium, nn. 37-40. The Instruction’s aim is to define “norms for the adaptation of the liturgy to the temperament and conditions of different peoples, which were given in Articles 37-40 of the constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium” (VL, n. 3).

Here is the context of the remark about clapping (VL, n. 42):
Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.
This is found in chapter III, “Principles and Practical Norms for Inculturation of the Roman Rite”. Introducing songs with clapping in them to a people which does not ordinarily express itself with clapping in its music is not “inculturation”. The secular songs with clapping that I know of are “If you’re happy and you know it”, that horrendous “Cha-Cha Slide”, Queen’s “We Will Rock You” (although not in the song itself), etc.

My opinion on the matter is this:

Why are the clapping songs being introduced? What do the liturgical directors seek to accomplish? “Active participation”? If so, what else do they do to promote “active participation”? Do they teach the teens what the prayers they say mean so that they can give the assent of faith? Do they teach the teens about the parts of the Mass so they know when silence is appropriate? Do they teach the teens about “active participation” through listening and praying? Or does all “active participation” require some distinct physical manifestation: you’re not “actively participating” unless you’re in the choir, an altar server, a reader, the person who brings up the bread and wine during the Offertory… you’re not “actively participating” unless you stand around the altar during the Eucharistic Prayer, hold hands with everyone during the “Our Father”, shake everyone’s hand (or hug them) during the Peace, etc.

I actively participate – I “assist” – at Mass by listening, speaking, praying, singing, receiving, offering, and doing what is proper to my role (and no further) as a lay member of the congregation. Sometimes I’m the reader for the Mass. Sometimes (though not recently) I sing in the choir. Once I brought up the offerings. A couple times I was an usher. I used to be an altar boy. But I could do without all of that and still be actually participating in the Mass.

Now, I understand that some people feel a need to do something more: they need to be a reader or hold hands or something else. But that should not be to the detriment of the people who do not feel such a need. And perhaps the reason they do not think the other stuff is “enough” is because they haven’t been catechized properly.

 

[anamchara]

The rubrics also do not ANYWHERE state explicitly that the 1962 Missal cannot be used for every single Mass in a given church. It is possible to read the rubrics from both 2002 and 1962 Missals, and Summorum Pontificum, and conclude that every single Mass COULD be 1962, if the pastor so desired and legalistically arranged the schedule (e.g., one Sunday Mass only, etc., etc.).

I doubt “Joysong” and “Anamchara” would approve.

The rubrics also do not ANYWHERE state explicitly that people couldn’t get up and do jumping jacks at the Consecration.

Now your just getting yourself all in a big fuss Alex, settle down. The problem is that clapping bugs you to your core, let it go. That’s your opinion. There is no abuse here.

Don’t assume to know what I would approve. You know nothing about me. Be careful my friend, least you find yourself getting caught up in the sin of calumny.

 

[AlexV]

No, clapping really doesn’t bother me. I don’t have to put up with it at a liturgy.

“Calumny”, eh? Amazing…throw out a little criticism of someone’s liturgical ideas and you’re quickly accused of sin. Rash judgment, “Anamchara”?

That’s a sin too.