First Youth Mass Tonight

[Joysong]

Dear Japhy,

I owe you a real hearty thank-you! :clapping:

I am a member of the Pastoral Council of my Church, and it is expedient to be informed of what the Church really says, just in case a parishioner contacts one of us with this question, or expresses dissatisfaction privately. My reason for asking about this research was not only confined to CAF posters.

Additionally, I don’t want it on my conscience to disdain any musical ministers in liturgy if they are doing what is allowed. “I” may dislike it intensely, but then again, that falls under our common struggle to forebear with one another in charity, knowing that we will never be pleased 100% with everything.

Carole

 

[anamchara]

And indeed, rubrics are for us ALL, not just the priest. How clericalist of you to assert otherwise!

In any case, one can always write a dubium to Rome, and then, as several California bishops have on occasion done, disobey the response.

Rubrics is for the priest in that we don’t get to tell him how to celebrate the Mass. It’s for him to follow. I don’t believe it was originally written for us But if you want to use it as a guide or check list to make sure your priest is not abusing anything, then go right a head.

Our bishop is a good and orthodox bishop. Go read it: diocese-sacramento.org/

 

[anamchara]

No, clapping really doesn’t bother me. I don’t have to put up with it at a liturgy.

“Calumny”, eh? Amazing…throw out a little criticism of someone’s liturgical ideas and you’re quickly accused of sin. Rash judgment, “Anamchara”?

That’s a sin too.

I said be careful because you were heading that way. You don’t know my liturgical ideas. All I’ve said in here is that we do clap at our youth mass.

 

[AlexV]

No such thing as a “youth Mass”.

Rash judgment to assert I’m heading toward calumny.

 

[anamchara]

Since this is being done by the OP only within the context of a hymn,

And only prior to the liturgy, and in the closing hymn after the liturgy has concluded with “go, the mass is ended,”

And to understand these contenders’ position,

I have uncovered absolutely no documentation to confirm or deny their statements.

Why would anyone assert what the Church has not stated without backing up their words? If they cannot back them up, shouldn’t that one refrain from his assertion and simply say, “it is my opinion that …”?

Thank you joysong, this was my point. You said it well and better than I did.

 

[anamchara]

No such thing as a “youth Mass”.

Rash judgment to assert I’m heading toward calumny.

lol, naww, it was pretty clear and I wasn’t rash at all. And no such thing as youth mass? Not sure where you are going with that but I would suggest starting a different thread on that topic

 

[AlexV]

The Mass is the Mass.

 

[JimR-OCDS]

I bet the OP is glad he asked his question in here, eh?

I wonder if youth would be better served, not participating in CAF.
It may be that this forum could actually be a road block to faith.

Why would anyone want to join such a miserable lot of people, who think clapping to music, or expressing any form of joy at Mass, is some form of sacrilege?

Jim

 

[AlexV]

Quite a leap from not supporting clapping to claiming the person objects to any expression of joy.

 

[japhy]

Varietates Legitimae, the Fourth Instruction for the orderly carrying out of Sacrosanctum Concilium, nn. 37-40. The Instruction’s aim is to define “norms for the adaptation of the liturgy to the temperament and conditions of different peoples, which were given in Articles 37-40 of the constitution Sacrosanctum Concilium” (VL, n. 3).

Here is the context of the remark about clapping (VL, n. 42):
Among some peoples, singing is instinctively accompanied by handclapping, rhythmic swaying and dance movements on the part of the participants. Such forms of external expression can have a place in the liturgical actions of these peoples on condition that they are always the expression of true communal prayer of adoration, praise, offering and supplication, and not simply a performance.
This is found in chapter III, “Principles and Practical Norms for Inculturation of the Roman Rite”. Introducing songs with clapping in them to a people which does not ordinarily express itself with clapping in its music is not “inculturation”.

I am a member of the Pastoral Council of my Church, and it is expedient to be informed of what the Church really says, just in case a parishioner contacts one of us with this question, or expresses dissatisfaction privately.

Then you can be sure to tell them that clapping is only permitted in song among those peoples for whom it is instinctive. VL does not give permission to introduce it in a non-organic fashion, nor to inject into music that does not require it. Clapping is simply not in the established tradition of the Roman Rite (unlike, for instance, Gregorian Chant).

Also, permit me to add that this was the only occurrence I found in the limited digital library I have on my computer (78 documents, not all of which are liturgical in nature).

(I am also on my parish’s Pastoral Council.)

 

[Joysong]

Then you can be sure to tell them that clapping is only permitted in song among those peoples for whom it is instinctive.

Just when I thought this was ironed out … (sigh)

Can you tell me then, Japhy, who is meant by “those peoples for whom it is instinctive?” Wouldn’t instinctive pertain to many of our youth?

And wouldn’t that pertain only to music within a liturgy, rather than external to it?

My head hurts!

Also, permit me to add that this was the only occurrence I found in the limited digital library I have on my computer (78 documents, not all of which are liturgical in nature).

Wow, then the Church has not specifically addressed this. None of us should claim to speak in the name of the Church, but ought to express it as personal ‘opinion’ then. I looked in my many sources too, but couldn’t find a thing. At least this discussion forms a history now so that future threads can be referred here.

So, I still owe you.

 

[japhy]

I am a member of the Pastoral Council of my Church, and it is expedient to be informed of what the Church really says, just in case a parishioner contacts one of us with this question, or expresses dissatisfaction privately.

I also found a mention of the practice outside my digital library. The Directory on Popular Piety and the Liturgy, n. 17, “Song and Music”:Song, a natural expression of the soul of any nation, plays an important role in popular piety {Sacrosanctum Concilium, n. 118}. The conservation of the received corpus of traditional songs must be linked with a biblical and ecclesial spirit which is open to the possibility, where necessary, of their revision or to the composition of new songs.

Among some peoples, song is instinctively linked with hand-clapping, rhythmic corporeal movements and even dance. Such are external forms of interior sentiment and are part of popular traditions, especially on occasions such as patronal feasts. Clearly, such should be genuine expressions of communal prayer and not merely theatrical spectacles. The fact of their prevalence in one area, however, should not be regarded as a reason for their promotion in other areas, especially where they would not be spontaneous.

 

[japhy]

Can you tell me then, Japhy, who is meant by “those peoples for whom it is instinctive?” Wouldn’t instinctive pertain to many of our youth? And wouldn’t that pertain only to music within a liturgy, rather than external to it?

The document is about legitimate varieties from inculturation. You tell me: is it instinctive in the youth at your parish to clap along with the hymns they sing? Is it part of “their own cultural heritage” (VL, n. 33)?

There’s a difference between instinctively clapping in a song, and singing a song that requires hand-claps.

I guess you can feel free to introduce whatever clapping songs you want outside the liturgy if you desire.

 

[japhy]

Wow, then the Church has not specifically addressed this. None of us should claim to speak in the name of the Church, but ought to express it as personal ‘opinion’ then.

It depends what issue you specifically expected to be addressed. I have presented two Magisterial sources which permit instinctive and spontaneous clapping in song. I also gave my opinion.

 

[Joysong]

Such are external forms of interior sentiment and are part of popular traditions, especially on occasions such as patronal feasts. Clearly, such should be genuine expressions of communal prayer

Beautiful! I think good formation will be up to the Minister of Music to assist in advancing this sentiment if that expression of clapping is used.

To be honest, I have never ever seen the congregation join in, so even though it is a youth mass with mostly youth present, the others do refrain from personal expression and permit only the choir to lead the faithful in singing a joyful song unto the LORD.

 

[Michael96]

Our youth group (middle through high school) had our first Youth Mass tonight.

Hi St Aloysius

I’m so glad you enjoyed your mass. Music is such a beautiful gift from God.

I’m firmly of the belief that there is room in the Catholic Church (indeed room in just a single parish) for dfferent uses of music. It’s great to have a quiet mass, or a chant-based mass, or a hymn-based mass. And there are some beautiful contemporary worship songs which really lift the heart and mind to God. I’m a great fan of Taize chant as well - blending traditional chant with a bit more or a contemporary melodic approach.

 

[Joysong]

Japhy:

Originally Posted by Joysong
Wow, then the Church has not specifically addressed this. None of us should claim to speak in the name of the Church, but ought to express it as personal ‘opinion’ then.

It depends what issue you specifically expected to be addressed. I have presented two Magisterial sources which permit instinctive and spontaneous clapping in song. I also gave my opinion.

You’re right. I was referring to the Church not specifically identifying “those peoples for whom it is instinctive.” My personal conclusion, until taught otherwise, is that peoples could also refer to youth. The youth I know are instinctively prone to outward expressions of their enthusiasm with song.

Again, I think those in authority who direct these youth choirs need to insure proper catechesis when introducing hymns for them to sing. As you said: There’s a difference between instinctively clapping in a song, and singing a song that requires hand-claps.

 

[benedictgal]

The document is about legitimate varieties from inculturation. You tell me: is it instinctive in the youth at your parish to clap along with the hymns they sing? Is it part of “their own cultural heritage” (VL, n. 33)?

There’s a difference between instinctively clapping in a song, and singing a song that requires hand-claps.

I guess you can feel free to introduce whatever clapping songs you want outside the liturgy if you desire.

Furthermore, inculturation also refers to missionary instances. For example, when the Church establishes missions in areas where there are indigenous tribes, She factors in certain aspects of their particular culture. For example, in certain areas of Mexico, there are many indigenous peoples who retain certain aspects of their culture when it comes to devotionals, such as the Matachines, who perform a sacred dance in honor of Our Lady of Guadalupe (prior to the liturgy, and, at times, outside of the Church). This dates back roughly five centuries. What the OP described in his situation doesn’t have that kind of cultural history.

“Youth” cultures doesn’t fit that mold. It is neither indigenous nor ethnic in nature. Cardinal Arinze made that very clear when the issue of liturgical dance came up for discussion.

 

[anamchara]

“Youth” cultures doesn’t fit that mold. It is neither indigenous nor ethnic in nature. Cardinal Arinze made that very clear when the issue of liturgical dance came up for discussion.

You don’t know for sure that youth culture doesn’t fit that mold, it’s still your own personal opinion. And so far Cardinal Arinze or anyone from the Vatican has yet to state youth cannot clap to music in certain parts of the Mass.

 

[agapewolf]

JPII stated that youth are their own culture.