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Joe_5859
Guest
I think Catholic Culture got the authority to red flag websites from the same place FishEaters got the authority to condemn the Charismatic Movement.
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ibkc
Guest
I have serious doubts that charismatics are experiencing what the apostles experienced at Pentecost. They’re are absolutely sincere in what they do, but what is described in Acts isn’t what goes on at modern charismatic and pentecostal meetings.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
agreed. i think the pope is letting this one slide because he is trying to keep all in the Church in hope that this will soon die out.
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pnewton
Guest
I have to hearken back to an earlier post. Fisheaters, while it has many good qualities and is ran by good Catholics, is still not the Church. It would be odd indeed in consideration of their tenor if they did not pan the Charismatic Movement. I think the history of the Charismatic Renewal is not as critical as the status of the C.R. It is not unique in Catholic spirituality that something that once was bad was turned to the good. Still, Catholic spirituality has such depth that if one is ill at ease with one thing, accept it as God leading you into another area of spirituality. I know that the C. R. is definitely not for me.
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Flame_of_Christ
Guest
I think that our obediance is better than your thoughts. The church has repeatedly commended catholics to embrace the Charismatic Renewal. Let me give you some quotes that show this to be absolutely true and that Charismatic Renewal is not simply something that is just allowed. Of course our church does not work like that in the first place. Every religious movement and community that has gone off track has been corrected, many times publically, by the Church Magisterium. The Renewal has not, and there is something to be said about that.
Here are some comments from that very magisterium:
*"The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is, as Pope John Paul II said in 1979, “A sign of the Spirit’s action… (and) a very important component in the total renewal of the Church.” *
catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html
Pope John Paul II: “This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these Charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.”
religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm#Popes_Statements:
this is only a small sample of the support given to the CCR.
peace in Jesus and Mary
Here are some comments from that very magisterium:
*"The Catholic Charismatic Renewal is, as Pope John Paul II said in 1979, “A sign of the Spirit’s action… (and) a very important component in the total renewal of the Church.” *
catholiccharismatic.us/ccc/articles/nonattributed/US_Bishops_001.html
Pope John Paul II: “This was my own spiritual initiation, so I can understand all these Charisms. They are all part of the richness of the Lord. I am convinced that this movement is a sign of his action.”
religion-cults.com/spirit/charismatic.htm#Popes_Statements:
this is only a small sample of the support given to the CCR.
peace in Jesus and Mary
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pnewton
Guest
My thoughts are my own and are often amiss. However, there is nothing in your quotes that commands Catholics to do anything. Since even praying the rosary is a private devotion and not a requirement, I do not think any such command exists.
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juliamajor
Guest
Sorry but that’s just plain nuts.
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juliamajor
Guest
Yes I am Catholic and unlike what some of the traditional remnant would like to believe we actually do other things besides"make pig noises", “speak gibberish” or “roll in the pews”.We actually go to a regular Mass take communion and pray without making noise.Amazing isn’t it.
A stereotype is just that-an exaggeration,a cartoon blowup-maybe having kernels of truth but mostly an operatic view of anything someone doesn’t like in race, ethnicity ,religion.We are dealing in stereotypes which degrade and try to humilate anyone Charismatic.That borders on calumny.The things I’ve heard here are not unlike the anti-catholic, anti-“papist” drivel that pervades the internet. Mindless, anecdotal with no mercy , no attempts at understanding.Just-"your not like me,you don’t act like me you don’t pray like me.therefore that makes you evil.Sinful.Uncatholic(or pick any group you have an issue with) and proceed to demonize them.
Too bad.Not very Christlike.The postives you either can’t or wont see. This makes one feel superior-which the point of hatred is.Making one feel validated by what they are doing by denigrating or destroying the other.
In my parish charismatics,were in the forefront of getting AND maintaining Eucharistic Adoration in my parish.I should know, my husband organized and kept it going even when the pastor didn’t want to. And if you look at the roster of those who take hours-the vast majority are charismatics.All those “normal” Catholics did nothing.Same with Cenacles and many other ministries.The thing is that the majority of folks didn’t know we were Charismatics we didn’t blab it about or lionize ourselves but quietly and prayerfully did the things which had to be done in order that Catholics of all stripes could worship and adore God and be fed at their parish.
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wisdomseeker
Guest
I dont care if you believe me or not. i am not making this up. i have no interest in saying this, i have nothing to gain from this. i am just saying what i heard. has been quite a while back so i dont remember the date. i could have heard it wrong but i dont think so. just pay attention to what he says. he is just so much in favor of protestants than Catholics. and since he is the founder of this movement together with protestants i wouldnt doubt that he is more in support of protestants than Catholics.Sorry but that’s just plain nuts.
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juliamajor
Guest
Commends-not commands.
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juliamajor
Guest
That is silly-he’s extremely orthodox.That he criticizes catholic sometimes-so what.That he is not hateful toward other religions-so what.He has a lot of friends in the nyc community, is well loved and well admired both for his holiness but for the work he and the brothers do.I 've heard him speak several times.I met him. i know him.you either misheard or misconstrued-not lying.That the renewal is positive for him is his only “sin”.after that everything you see and hear is colored by your bias.Happens to everyone.
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cothrige
Guest
Since people seemed to be using Catholic Culture’s rating as demonstrative that FishEaters, a site I have only visited once or twice, may be unreliable I decided to visit and see what it was saying. What I found was that their “red” rating of FishEaters is actually established using very poor reasoning. For example, one of the weaknesses is * All of the material and resources offered are pre-Vatican II*. I really don’t see how a traditional Catholic website using traditional Catholic documents and history is really a weakness, unless you believe traditional Catholicism is itself flawed, which I fear is likely the case. They also claim that FishEaters implicitly and explicitly rejects the Novus Ordo Mass. I felt that this was a rather vague charge. What does “reject” even mean? On the examples page they suggest that it includes believing that the NO Mass is “a Mass in name only,” which would mean they think it is invald, but yet their examples don’t support this conclusion at all. Another weakness they list is that FishEaters Does not realistically portray the Catholic perspective of the Jewish religion which is again so vague as to be meaningless. And for this one their examples page actually has no examples at all, but rather only three short sentences which themselves portray nothing about the Catholic perspective at all. What are we to take away from that?
In the end I found nothing substantive in their rating at all. They appear to be arguing from a bias, in that they infer claims which do not seem to be present, or at the bare minimum doing a very poor job of drawing conclusions or substantiating a claim. Given that situation I would not be comfortable trusting their ratings, and would flag Catholic Culture itself as red.
In the end I found nothing substantive in their rating at all. They appear to be arguing from a bias, in that they infer claims which do not seem to be present, or at the bare minimum doing a very poor job of drawing conclusions or substantiating a claim. Given that situation I would not be comfortable trusting their ratings, and would flag Catholic Culture itself as red.
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Joe_5859
Guest
I had no idea my link to Catholic Culture’s website review would become such a focal point for the thread. I simply posted it for further info and a word of caution. I find their reviews quite helpful because, even if I don’t agree with their rating, they give examples of why they rated it as they did. Thus, I can decide for myself if their reasons are compelling or not. I just assumed that’s how everyone would take it. 
Certainly, they are not some infallible source on Catholic websites.
Frankly, though, I’m far more skeptical of websites that are run by one individual (as is Fish Eater’s) than I am of websites that are run by Catholic groups (such as Catholic Culture). In my experience, websites that are run by lone individuals are often more prone to being biased. Grant it, there are group websites that are extremely biased (NCReporter, for example) and individual websites/blogs that are not (Whispers in the Loggia, for example).
And, yes, I realize the irony that I myself am one individual with some Catholic websites of my own (which I hope people will take seriously).
Certainly, they are not some infallible source on Catholic websites.Frankly, though, I’m far more skeptical of websites that are run by one individual (as is Fish Eater’s) than I am of websites that are run by Catholic groups (such as Catholic Culture). In my experience, websites that are run by lone individuals are often more prone to being biased. Grant it, there are group websites that are extremely biased (NCReporter, for example) and individual websites/blogs that are not (Whispers in the Loggia, for example).
And, yes, I realize the irony that I myself am one individual with some Catholic websites of my own (which I hope people will take seriously
).
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juliamajor
Guest
Isn’t getting caught up ratings just a little out of the range of this thread?
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ibkc
Guest
I will point out, too, that even if something is biased, that does not necessarily mean it provides bad or incorrect information. It just means we might have to look elsewhere to find an opposing view. Freedom of speech means just that; we can express our opinions but we are under no obligation to express anyone else’s opinion. Problems come in when a media outlet presents itself as objective when it is anything but. This is hardly the case with Fish Eaters; they do not claim to be anything other than a site that exists to promote and educate about traditional Catholicism in the pre-VII sense.
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NeelyAnn
Guest
**Seattle Catholic
BOOK REVIEW
Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement
John Vennari
reviewed by Peter W. Miller **
**Untested spirits and idle minds **
There was once a time, not so long ago, when Catholics shared a common aversion towards certain cultural elements which, although billed as “Christian,” didn’t seem quite right. Such elements and practices were once dismissed as “too Protestant” and altogether avoided due to a healthy fear of proximity to heresy, apostasy and supernatural evil. One of the more unfortunate consequences of the changes to take place since the Vatican II days has been a blurring of those distinctions. Certain sights which once would send faithful Catholics in flight became not uncommon occurrences in Catholic liturgies and diocesan-sponsored events. Through the proliferation of dancing in the aisles, “gospel” music, “evangelistic” sermons, “Christian Rock” and performance liturgies, some of the more obvious and visible boundaries between the Catholic Church and the realm of extra ecclesiam have become obscured. Nowhere is this more evident or unsettling then in what has been termed the “Charismatic Movement.”
Deriving its roots from the misleadingly-named “Pentecostalism,” the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church has been around since at least the late 1960’s; its longevity giving it an undeserved degree of respectability. Worse still, approval for this phenomenon has come primarily from those institutions claiming adherence to “conservative” and “orthodox” Catholic values. Various Charismatic proponents have been featured on EWTN, a cable television network serving as the flagship for “conservative” Catholicism, while the biggest supporter and promoter has been the Franciscan University of Stuebenville, a supposedly “conservative” university whose staff boasts that 75% of the students have been “baptized in the Holy Spirit” (i.e. actively participated in Charismatic/Pentecostalist events). Even Stuebenville faculty member and famed convert Scott Hahn, a man who draws significant lecture crowds and sells countless books, has repeatedly voiced support for this “movement.” This enthusiastic acceptance apparently extends to the Vatican where Pope John Paul II has received in audience and sent encouraging letters to various Charismatic leaders and groups.
**Charismatic antics **
Just what is Charismaticism and where did it come from? These are questions explored in John Vennari’s new book, “Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement” which includes eye-witness accounts of some of the more bizarre “Christian” occurrences imaginable. From loud rock music to body convulsions to falling upon the floor “slain in the ‘spirit’,” this is a revealing and necessary look at Charismatic antics. The accounts and stories quickly go from silly to disturbing as the performers claim to receive messages directly from God and audience members receive the “gifts” of speaking in and interpreting “tongues.” As noted researcher Msgr. Ronald Knox warns:
“To speak with tongues you have never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom of alleged diabolic possession.”
Based on a faulty understanding of the Pentecostal gift received by the apostles from the actual Holy Ghost to preach to men in different languages at the same time, these nonsense vocalizations have become one of the defining characteristics of Charismaticism. Former Pentecostalist Gerry Matatics recalled an experience he had as he started to suspect something amiss with the Pentecostal rallies he was attending. Having memorized the twenty-second Psalm in Hebrew, he exclaimed the equivalent of “The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want” during one of the “revivals,” only to have it interpreted by the “translator” as a message from God instructing the audience to help build an extra wing on the local pastor’s house!
The Catholic teaching regarding discernment of spirits is replaced by open and enthusiastic support for anything and everything presented by the “movement” with seemingly little sincere prayer or critical analysis. Ignored are the warnings of St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, the two great Mystical Doctors of the Church:
“Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in revelations or extraordinary phenomena] that I believe it is impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the devil give them.” (St. John of the Cross)
With more new cultists, healers, prophets, stigmatists, apparitionists and visionaries popping up every day, the need for vigilance is now more important than ever. Uncritical acceptance of liberal ideologies and modernist mantras is bad enough. Getting exciting about a heretic parading around a stage while an audience twirls and makes animal noises is patently ridiculous.
The sort of cacophony on display is the stuff of oft-repeated and rightfully-derided stereotypes parodied in various media outlets. But the antics detailed in this book are even more ridiculous and transparent than the cable televangelists they emulate. Yet rather than dismissively changing the channel, Catholics are tuning it in significant numbers, travelling across the country to “revivals” hoping to “catch the spirit.” Is a “spirit” that results in one making unintelligible noises, wildly flailing extremities about and surrendering judgment to a professional Protestant “leader” claiming to receive finance-related messages from God really a spirit that any reasonable individual, much less one blessed with the treasure of the Catholic Faith, would want to “catch”?
Continue here: seattlecatholic.com/article_20020510_BR_Charismatic.html
BOOK REVIEW
Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement
John Vennari
reviewed by Peter W. Miller **
**Untested spirits and idle minds **
There was once a time, not so long ago, when Catholics shared a common aversion towards certain cultural elements which, although billed as “Christian,” didn’t seem quite right. Such elements and practices were once dismissed as “too Protestant” and altogether avoided due to a healthy fear of proximity to heresy, apostasy and supernatural evil. One of the more unfortunate consequences of the changes to take place since the Vatican II days has been a blurring of those distinctions. Certain sights which once would send faithful Catholics in flight became not uncommon occurrences in Catholic liturgies and diocesan-sponsored events. Through the proliferation of dancing in the aisles, “gospel” music, “evangelistic” sermons, “Christian Rock” and performance liturgies, some of the more obvious and visible boundaries between the Catholic Church and the realm of extra ecclesiam have become obscured. Nowhere is this more evident or unsettling then in what has been termed the “Charismatic Movement.”
Deriving its roots from the misleadingly-named “Pentecostalism,” the Charismatic Movement in the Catholic Church has been around since at least the late 1960’s; its longevity giving it an undeserved degree of respectability. Worse still, approval for this phenomenon has come primarily from those institutions claiming adherence to “conservative” and “orthodox” Catholic values. Various Charismatic proponents have been featured on EWTN, a cable television network serving as the flagship for “conservative” Catholicism, while the biggest supporter and promoter has been the Franciscan University of Stuebenville, a supposedly “conservative” university whose staff boasts that 75% of the students have been “baptized in the Holy Spirit” (i.e. actively participated in Charismatic/Pentecostalist events). Even Stuebenville faculty member and famed convert Scott Hahn, a man who draws significant lecture crowds and sells countless books, has repeatedly voiced support for this “movement.” This enthusiastic acceptance apparently extends to the Vatican where Pope John Paul II has received in audience and sent encouraging letters to various Charismatic leaders and groups.
**Charismatic antics **
Just what is Charismaticism and where did it come from? These are questions explored in John Vennari’s new book, “Close-ups of the Charismatic Movement” which includes eye-witness accounts of some of the more bizarre “Christian” occurrences imaginable. From loud rock music to body convulsions to falling upon the floor “slain in the ‘spirit’,” this is a revealing and necessary look at Charismatic antics. The accounts and stories quickly go from silly to disturbing as the performers claim to receive messages directly from God and audience members receive the “gifts” of speaking in and interpreting “tongues.” As noted researcher Msgr. Ronald Knox warns:
“To speak with tongues you have never learned was, and is, a recognized symptom of alleged diabolic possession.”
Based on a faulty understanding of the Pentecostal gift received by the apostles from the actual Holy Ghost to preach to men in different languages at the same time, these nonsense vocalizations have become one of the defining characteristics of Charismaticism. Former Pentecostalist Gerry Matatics recalled an experience he had as he started to suspect something amiss with the Pentecostal rallies he was attending. Having memorized the twenty-second Psalm in Hebrew, he exclaimed the equivalent of “The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want” during one of the “revivals,” only to have it interpreted by the “translator” as a message from God instructing the audience to help build an extra wing on the local pastor’s house!
The Catholic teaching regarding discernment of spirits is replaced by open and enthusiastic support for anything and everything presented by the “movement” with seemingly little sincere prayer or critical analysis. Ignored are the warnings of St. Theresa of Avila and St. John of the Cross, the two great Mystical Doctors of the Church:
“Wherein the devil habitually meddles so freely [in revelations or extraordinary phenomena] that I believe it is impossible for a man not to be deceived by them, unless he strive to reject them, such an appearance of truth and security does the devil give them.” (St. John of the Cross)
With more new cultists, healers, prophets, stigmatists, apparitionists and visionaries popping up every day, the need for vigilance is now more important than ever. Uncritical acceptance of liberal ideologies and modernist mantras is bad enough. Getting exciting about a heretic parading around a stage while an audience twirls and makes animal noises is patently ridiculous.
The sort of cacophony on display is the stuff of oft-repeated and rightfully-derided stereotypes parodied in various media outlets. But the antics detailed in this book are even more ridiculous and transparent than the cable televangelists they emulate. Yet rather than dismissively changing the channel, Catholics are tuning it in significant numbers, travelling across the country to “revivals” hoping to “catch the spirit.” Is a “spirit” that results in one making unintelligible noises, wildly flailing extremities about and surrendering judgment to a professional Protestant “leader” claiming to receive finance-related messages from God really a spirit that any reasonable individual, much less one blessed with the treasure of the Catholic Faith, would want to “catch”?
Continue here: seattlecatholic.com/article_20020510_BR_Charismatic.html
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NeelyAnn
Guest
**Charismatic Movement Not From GOD **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/Charism.htm
**Is Charismatic Movement Catholic? **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/chrsmat.htm
**The Pentecostal “speaking in tongues” **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/pentcsl.htm
**From Pentecostalism to Apostasy **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/charisma.htm
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/Charism.htm
**Is Charismatic Movement Catholic? **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/chrsmat.htm
**The Pentecostal “speaking in tongues” **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/pentcsl.htm
**From Pentecostalism to Apostasy **
catholicapologetics.info/modernproblems/currenterrors/charisma.htm
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NeelyAnn
Guest
Check out this website which addresses the problems with many of the Charismatic movements of today.
**charismatic heresy **
charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/cursillo.html
UNMASKING THE CHARISMATIC HERESY
“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths” 2 Timothy 4:3-4 - “False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect” Mark 13: 22 - “The smoke of Satan has entered the Church” Pope Paul VI
About Me
Muriel
Canada
I am a recovering charismatic and a Catholic Orthodox; observing orthopraxis to the best of my ability. I acknowledge what the Church REALLY DOES TEACH; opposed to what some people erroneously say the Church teaches. “Catholic Orthodoxy” is proposed “to conform to the Catholic faith as taught by the Magisterium of the Church. So an “orthodox” person is one who is FAITHFUL to the teachings of the Church, whereas a “heterodox” person is somebody who rejects ANY Catholic dogma. Orthopraxis means “Performing the correct actions”. Catholic Orthodoxy is defined by the Catechism: it tells us what we are supposed TO BELIEVE. Catholic Orthopraxis is denoted by the Code of Canon Law: it spells out what we are supposed TO DO. Because “Truth is not determined by a majority vote” – Pope Benedict XVI.
**charismatic heresy **
charismatic-heresy.blogspot.com/2006/11/cursillo.html
UNMASKING THE CHARISMATIC HERESY
“For the time will come when people will not tolerate sound doctrine but, following their own desires and insatiable curiosity, will accumulate teachers and will stop listening to the truth and will be diverted to myths” 2 Timothy 4:3-4 - “False messiahs and false prophets will arise and will perform signs and wonders in order to mislead, if that were possible, the elect” Mark 13: 22 - “The smoke of Satan has entered the Church” Pope Paul VI
About Me
Muriel
Canada
I am a recovering charismatic and a Catholic Orthodox; observing orthopraxis to the best of my ability. I acknowledge what the Church REALLY DOES TEACH; opposed to what some people erroneously say the Church teaches. “Catholic Orthodoxy” is proposed “to conform to the Catholic faith as taught by the Magisterium of the Church. So an “orthodox” person is one who is FAITHFUL to the teachings of the Church, whereas a “heterodox” person is somebody who rejects ANY Catholic dogma. Orthopraxis means “Performing the correct actions”. Catholic Orthodoxy is defined by the Catechism: it tells us what we are supposed TO BELIEVE. Catholic Orthopraxis is denoted by the Code of Canon Law: it spells out what we are supposed TO DO. Because “Truth is not determined by a majority vote” – Pope Benedict XVI.
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juliamajor
Guest
Here we go the ultra traditionalist mouth piece.
J
juliamajor
Guest
You better run and tell the Vatican!We wicked evil heretical(a term you love to bandy about which I believe in technical terms only the Church can use)charismatics are such awful folks.Heresy is determined by the church-not by you or others like you. It doesn’t bother you to say nasty inflammatory things about fellow Catholics?Half truths made into bigger lies and mean spirited propaganda.You have more in common with the separated brethren then you know…
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