Fish or cut bait

[JonNC]

To my Catholic friends,
Over the course of the last few years, and through my discussions here and in readings, there are a number of issues that traditionally divided the Lutheran and Catholic traditions that I have to a great degree reconciled with, including justification, the Eucharist, and even purgatory (at least the way I’ve heard it explained recently).
Thanks to a recent discussion with Realcatholicgk, I have come to point where I must make a decision: do I continue to consider looking into the Catholic Church on a personal basis, or do I abandon this exploration and simply look to and pray for the corporate unity which I desire so much? In short, should I continue to fish, or just cut bait?
To that end, I will post in different threads a couple of questions that I need answered. On the front side I will thank you for all honest opinions offered, and will not respond except to answer or ask questions, or simply to thank.

My fiest question is, bluntly, which Catholic Church would I be joining? Is it this one:

=Realcatholicgk;4735909]QUOTE=

Protestants should not care what Catholics believe about them. And Catholics should never accept the false teachings of any Protestant group, or care what they believe about our faith. There should be acceptance that Catholics follow the real teachings of Jesus and Protestants decided within the past 500 years not to do that. They want to worship their bibles and insult Jesus’ real church while they pretend to be the real church. Through their false practices, they only give more power to the Devil!

Protestant churches including the Lutheran groups consider themselves branches of Christianity IMHO they are simular to Polyporus annosus.

Or this:

Gottle of Geer

It means that lack of valid sacraments need not stop a Church being a means of salvation. IOW, God can save through the Lutheran Churches.​

IOW - God is not the prisoner or puppet or poodle of the Pope. He does not need Rome’s permission or agreement to act as God - He is is not a tribal fetish, & His faithfulness to Church X as promised, does not imply, & is not to be construed as, lack of activity among Churches Y to W. Where Catholics go wrong is in taking for granted (on insufficient grounds) that God’s faithfulness to the CC must imply absence from any other Church. Not that Catholics are alone in this . The reason, is perhaps an insufficient appreciation of the graciousness of God. (And a failure to take account of the Biblical data on this subject: Amos & Jesus give the idea of Divine election of a people (which is involved here) some very interesting twists…

and CCC

819 "Furthermore, many elements of sanctification and of truth"273 are found outside the visible confines of the Catholic Church: "the written Word of God; the life of grace; faith, hope, and charity, with the other interior gifts of the Holy Spirit, as well as visible elements."274 Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation, whose power derives from the fullness of grace and truth that Christ has entrusted to the Catholic Church. All these blessings come from Christ and lead to him,275 and are in themselves calls to "Catholic unity."276

Jon

 

[Angels_Unaware]

I don’t see these quotes as being in contradiction.

It’s like asking if you want to be in the main part of the river or off in a edy where you will run into a dam. Do you want the fullness of the faith, or a version that longs for fullness.

There are inherent errors and limitations within Protestant churches, but God uses limited people and limited churches. Those limitations and errors do not mean that God is not there in those churches and that lives are not changed by those churches.

This is essentially what the catechism is saying.

Mother Teresa never preached the gospel with anything except the actions of love, and said that in those final hours of their lives, the dying people she served did not need to be intellectually converted from their life-long religions. She thought the love of the gospel transcends all religions.

 

[ricko]

Of course there is only one Catholic Church. It’s teachings are universal. What you have posted are opinions of some of its members or non members which may or may not be true. Only and I say again, only the Catholic Church has the fullness of truth. The other Christian churches have some of the truths from one degree to another. Only one Church was established by Jesus and only one Church is promised the Holy Spirit to teach the true word of God. The only correct statement in your post was the one from the CCC. Catholics are willing to explain the truths of the Catholic Church to you and others but one thing we will not do is try to influence your decision, that is something you must do of your own free will.

 

[jmcrae]

Thanks to a recent discussion with Realcatholicgk, I have come to point where I must make a decision: do I continue to consider looking into the Catholic Church on a personal basis, or do I abandon this exploration and simply look to and pray for the corporate unity which I desire so much? In short, should I continue to fish, or just cut bait?

This is a question that confronts every Protestant who looks seriously into the claims of the Catholic Church.

In my case, I converted. I strongly recommend it. I’ve been Catholic now for nearly eight years, and I haven’t had a single moment of regret - it’s a wild ride, but it’s fun.

Obviously, it’s up to you.

If it were up to me, I’d be tracking down an RCIA that will take you in as of this evening.

 

[Eucharisted]

Jon,

Where Christ is, there is the Church; and where the Church is, there is Christ. Christ without a Body is not Christ but a phantom, but Christ with a Body is truly Christ, for we believe God became incarnate. And what is Christ’s Body? The Church! And what is the Church? The Body of Christ! Where Christ is, there is the Church, and where the Church is, there is Christ.

Seek Christ and you will find His Church.

 

[Reuben_J]

To my Catholic friends,
Over the course of the last few years, and through my discussions here and in readings, there are a number of issues that traditionally divided the Lutheran and Catholic traditions that I have to a great degree reconciled with, including justification, the Eucharist, and even purgatory (at least the way I’ve heard it explained recently).
Thanks to a recent discussion with Realcatholicgk, I have come to point where I must make a decision: do I continue to consider looking into the Catholic Church on a personal basis, or do I abandon this exploration and simply look to and pray for the corporate unity which I desire so much? In short, should I continue to fish, or just cut bait?
To that end, I will post in different threads a couple of questions that I need answered. On the front side I will thank you for all honest opinions offered, and will not respond except to answer or ask questions, or simply to thank.

My fiest question is, bluntly, which Catholic Church would I be joining? Is it this one:

Or this:

Gottle of Geer

and CCC

Jon

Hi Jon.

I just want to thank God for having you in this forum. Your presence has been an encouragement for us too even if we don’t share some aspects of your belief. Your tenacity and patience for being here have to be admired and acknowledged.

I can’t offer you which choice of Catholic that you must consider without appearing to be biased. However I take note that you had reconciled with issues like justification, the Eucharist, and even purgatory. This is some of the heart of the doctrines of Catholic Church. You have edified us by revealing to us your feeling on these; issues that very often times disputed by many other Christians.

I should say that you would seriously consider which Catholic Church is the most appropriate source and the proprietor of these issues. Of course my own answer would be the Catholic Church but you need to be convinced yourself that it is so.

I thought former Protestants who embraced the Catholic Church would be able to give you better insight with authority, as they had been there themselves.

May God bless you in your journey and search for a church that Jesus had set up himself.

Reuben.

 

[ralphinal]

Well, I am not going to be much help. I never am, really.

What I want to say is something very specific. If you think that there is the slightest chance that the Catholic Church is correct, you need not worry about my opinion of what she teaches. In fact, you need to ignore what everyone else says that she teaches too. What you need to do is to look deep into your soul and ask “If she is correct, am I missing out on better unity with Christ by not joining her?” If you can answer that as “Yes, I am missing something,” then you must join. If you say “No, I am not missing anything” then you are saying that she is not correct, as she says that you are missing on the greatest avenue of grace on Earth. If your answer is “I really do not know” then you must keep praying and studying and not fighting the Holy Spirit in your life.

Either way, you can still work for unity. You can be the Lutheran Scott Hann, without the other issues. You can help others move to the understanding that you have struggled to grasp.

You are in my prayers. I have learned from you, and will continue to do so.

 

[gcnuss]

Jon,

As I read your original post, I was drawn into your dilemma. How one deals with the issue of “do I go now or do I wait for (and work for) corporate unity?” is one in which I have, to this point, felt called to the latter path. I trust that it is the leading of the Holy Spirit that has brought me to where I am.

I will keep you in my prayers as you seek to discern where the Spirit is leading you.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

**
… On the front side I will thank you for all honest opinions offered, and will not respond except to answer or ask questions, or simply to thank.

My first question is, bluntly, which Catholic Church would I be joining?**

**Hi Jon,

Before I answer, let me preface my remarks by saying that I have the utmost personal respect for you. You are really a gentleman! It is my pleasure to debate with you. You have made me realize that I need to work on some of my ambiguity issues!

That being said, My dear friend, There is only one Church, Jon, the rest are counterfeit copies. The real church was founded by Jesus 2,000 years ago.

Have you ever read the “The Church is not Wal-Mart.” By Fr. Philip Powell? I was going to enclose the link but after reading it again felt that I should just include it into my response for others to read. ** **

The Church is not Wal-Mart **
By Fr. Philip Powell:

I had a much longer piece, but I scrapped it for something a lot shorter and more to the point.

1). The Roman Catholic Church isn’t WalMart or Burger King; it’s the Body of Christ.

2). Catholic priests, nuns, sisters/brothers and laity aren’t employees; we are members of the Body of Christ.

3). The doctrine and dogma of the Catholic Church are not consumer products that the Church’s employees sell to those who want them; Catholic doctrine and dogma express the unchanging truth of the faith.

4). Life in a Catholic parish is not a trip to Disney Land or Target or McDonald’s where your consumer needs and whims are catered to by the whimpering clergy and lay staff; parish life is the life of Christ for the local Catholic family.

5). You do not come into the Catholic Church because you like the building better than you like the Methodist chapel; or because the priest at the Catholic parish is cuter than the Baptist preacher; or because you heard that the homilies are shorter at St. Bubba’s by the Lake than they are at the Unitarian Church. You come into the Catholic Church because you believe that the Catholic faith is the truth of the gospel taught by Christ himself and given to his apostles

6). Leaving the Catholic Church because a priest was mean to you, or because sister whacked you with a ruler, or because the church secretary looked at you funny is as stupid as giving up on the truths of math because you hate your high school algebra teacher. Why would anyone let a crazy priest or a cranky nun or anyone else for the matter drive you out of the faith you believe is true? My only conclusion: you never thought it was true to begin with; or, you have a favorite sin the Church teaches against and crazy priests and cranky nuns is as good an excuse as any to leave and pursue your sin all the while feeling justified because Father and/or Sister are such jerks.

7). Anyone who comes in the Catholic Church thinking that they will find clouds of angels at Mass dressed as parishioners; hordes of perfect saints kneeling for communion; seminaries packed with angelic young men burning to be priests; a parish hall stacked to the ceiling with morally pure people eager to serve; and a priest without flaw or blemish, well, you’re cracked and you probably need to go back and try again. Telling Catholics that they aren’t perfect makes as much sense as telling fish they’re wet. We know already. Move on.

8). Of the hundreds of priests and religious I know, I know two who could count as saints right now. The rest of us are deeply flawed, impure, struggling creatures who know all too well that we fail utterly to meet the basic standards of holiness. For that matter: so do you. Get in line.

9). The Catholic Church owes no one a revision of her doctrine or dogma. She didn’t change to save most of Europe from becoming Protestant, why would you imagine that she would change just to get you in one of her parishes?

10). If you want to become Catholic, do it. But do it because you think the Church teaches the true faith. If a cranky priest on a blogsite is enough to keep you from embracing the truth of the faith, then two things are painfully clear:

1. you do not believe the Church teaches the faith;
2. and you care more about expresssing your hurt consumer feelings than you do for your immortal soul.

**So Jon, are you going to fish or cut bait? Only you know your true heart! You have been told the truth by honest and sincere people.There is one last thing that I must say.
While in the Army stationed in Germany, our Catholic Mass was immediately after the Lutheran service in the same Chapel. For three years, I watched as they threw away excess grape juice and hosts after their communion service.
In the bible ,any version., Jesus taught His apostles how to change the bread and wine into His body and blood. Once it was changed, as Catholics and Lutherans both believe. Jesus is actually present in the communion.

Now , my serious and sincere question to you is what are the passages that Lutherans use to change Jesus back into bread and wine? I know he He wasn’t ever there. But if you think he was wouldnlt he still be there unless something was done? So if he was still there when he was thrown in the trash it is like the babies in abortion clinics being thrown in the medical waste containers.
I never cared about it, because I could feel that Jesus wasn’t there or I would have taken His body and blood and burried it.
Jon, Jesus. our Lord and Savior is really alive in the Catholic church. He really is my friend. This I know, this I proclaim! God bless you, Jon.

I pray for everyone especially Protestants and unborn Children I ask every one to do the same.

God Bless**

 

[JonNC]

Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. I will continue to ponder them, and those that follow.
Jon

 

[JonNC]

I don’t see these quotes as being in contradiction.

It’s like asking if you want to be in the main part of the river or off in a edy where you will run into a dam. Do you want the fullness of the faith, or a version that longs for fullness.

There are inherent errors and limitations within Protestant churches, but God uses limited people and limited churches. Those limitations and errors do not mean that God is not there in those churches and that lives are not changed by those churches.

This is essentially what the catechism is saying.

Mother Teresa never preached the gospel with anything except the actions of love, and said that in those final hours of their lives, the dying people she served did not need to be intellectually converted from their life-long religions. She thought the love of the gospel transcends all religions.

Angels,

I guess I am having a tough time reconciling these two ideas:
from the CCC - “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation” and what Realcatholicgk said: “Through their false practices, they only give more power to the Devil!”

Do these contradict each other, and if they do, which is the real teaching of the Church?

Jon

 

[Angels_Unaware]

Angels,

I guess I am having a tough time reconciling these two ideas:
from the CCC - “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation” and what Realcatholicgk said: “Through their false practices, they only give more power to the Devil!”

Do these contradict each other, and if they do, which is the real teaching of the Church?

Jon

Jon, the real teaching of the Church is what you quoted from the catechism. If you are looking for a clear and direct answer, you have it. The majority of priests will tell you exactly what the catechism says if you ask them about other churches.

To answer your question about whether those two ideas are in contradiction, I would ask you a question. Is it possible for a church to contain both error and truth? I think the answer is that of course it’s possible. You are looking for the most light, and the greatest truth, not the right church versus the wrong church. No church is that black and white.

 

[Through_Him]

Thanks all for your thoughtful responses. I will continue to ponder them, and those that follow.
Jon

Hi Jon
I want to tell you about a friend of mine. He is a Hebrew Catholic and he has been one for about 20 years but it took him 20 years to get there. He has such insight into the faith, more than I can write here. He has studied the Church so much he has taught me more than I ever knew. Once he learned about Catholic teachings of the Church he said it answered all his questions and connected him with his Hebrew learning, and enriched it. I’m jealous sometimes. He writes books and articles and never seems to stop learning and applying it all to his walk. He is helping Catholics. I pray your journey continues in the direction of the Church.
Bless You

 

[mark_a]

My fiest question is, bluntly, which Catholic Church would I be joining? Is it this one:

Yes.

Or this:

Yes.

I hope your not looking for a Catholic Church (Church militant) that’s not in constant turmoil, because if you are you won’t find it.

 

[JonNC]

Jon, the real teaching of the Church is what you quoted from the catechism. If you are looking for a clear and direct answer, you have it. The majority of priests will tell you exactly what the catechism says if you ask them about other churches.

To answer your question about whether those two ideas are in contradiction, I would ask you a question. Is it possible for a church to contain both error and truth? I think the answer is that of course it’s possible. You are looking for the most light, and the greatest truth, not the right church versus the wrong church. No church is that black and white.

Angels,
This really helps. Thanks.

mark a and Through Him,
Thank you both.

Jon

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Angels,

I guess I am having a tough time reconciling these two ideas:
from the CCC - “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation” and what Realcatholicgk said: “Through their false practices, they only give more power to the Devil!”

Do these contradict each other, and if they do, which is the real teaching of the Church?

Jon

**
Hi Jon,

I actually agree with everything the catholic church teaches. It is called faith. I even agree with what the CCC says “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation”] Did you think I didn’t, or wouldn’t? I doesn’t conflict with anything I have ever said! .

If you think so please show me the conflict. If you would have asked me rather than make a somewhat veiled accusation I would have agreed and explain my point of view as taught by the RCC. I never had any doubt that Christ’s spirit uses these "defective groups as a mean of salvation. Christ can work miracles! He saved a wretch like me! But as I have no doubt that when a Protestant gets baptised they are actually becoming “Catholics” (although many will be taught and told differently) Why do you think the Catholic church doesn’t require a “re-baptism” like many of the counterfeit groups do? Since Pope BenedictXVI says they aren’t “churches” I don’t either. They may change the CCC now that he has corrected the false impression the use of that word brought to many groups even Catholics. Click On: Pope speaks out

Yes I did say :
“Through their false practices, they only give more power to the Devil!” And I also stand by those words because

When some deny that Jesus was divine they do.

When people deny Christ word is truth as contained in John 6 they do.

When they distort and corrupt sacrad scripture they do.

When they pick and choice what they will believe solely on “feelings” they do!

When they threw the Christ baby out with the bath water, they do.

When All of them deny the authority of the Pope, passed down from Jesus Himself, they do!

The their oficial standings allow abortion, they do!

When they allow homosexual ministers they are.

When they allow divorce they do.

and as I told you before Don, …“and the dance goes on”

I love you my brother, but don’t think for one minute I am against you in any fashion! The Pope isn’t against you, The only thing that must be done is we have to get the good people back under the protection of the HS in the one real church established by Jesus.

I believe that the Lutheran church has became so divided no union is possible even with your own groups much less with the RCC. Sad but true! The talks have been going on since 1935 and the truth spoken by the Pope will hurt but I agree he can’t lie to regain souls. We could have done that 500 years ago and not lost souls to satan. But God’s Truth can;t be changed (except by protestants) Lies keep us apart, not words. Satan will make sure there is no unity. United we can stand against His attacks!

To become united with the Catholic church MUST be an individual decision if you are ever going to join the real church.

God Bless.**

 

[JonNC]

**
Hi Jon,

I actually agree with everything the catholic church teaches. It is called faith. I even agree with what the CCC says “Christ’s Spirit uses these Churches and ecclesial communities as means of salvation”**] Did you think I didn’t, or wouldn’t? I doesn’t conflict with anything I have ever said! .

If you think so please show me the conflict. If you would have asked me rather than make a somewhat veiled accusation I would have agreed and explain my point of view as taught by the RCC. I never had any doubt that Christ’s spirit uses these "defective groups as a mean of salvation. Christ can work miracles! He saved a wretch like me! But as I have no doubt that when a Protestant gets baptised they are actually becoming “Catholics” (although many will be taught and told differently) Why do you think the Catholic church doesn’t require a “re-baptism” like many of the counterfeit groups do? Since Pope BenedictXVI says they aren’t “churches” I don’t either. They may change the CCC now that he has corrected the false impression the use of that word brought to many groups even Catholics. Click On: Pope speaks out

Yes I did say :
“Through their false practices, they only give more power to the Devil!” And I also stand by those words because

When some deny that Jesus was divine they do.

When people deny Christ word is truth as contained in John 6 they do.

When they distort and corrupt sacrad scripture they do.

When they pick and choice what they will believe solely on “feelings” they do!

When they threw the Christ baby out with the bath water, they do.

When All of them deny the authority of the Pope, passed down from Jesus Himself, they do!

The their oficial standings allow abortion, they do!

When they allow homosexual ministers they are.

When they allow divorce they do.

and as I told you before Don, …“and the dance goes on”

I love you my brother, but don’t think for one minute I am against you in any fashion! The Pope isn’t against you, The only thing that must be done is we have to get the good people back under the protection of the HS in the one real church established by Jesus.

I believe that the Lutheran church has became so divided no union is possible even with your own groups much less with the RCC. Sad but true! The talks have been going on since 1935 and the truth spoken by the Pope will hurt but I agree he can’t lie to regain souls. We could have done that 500 years ago and not lost souls to satan. But God’s Truth can;t be changed (except by protestants) Lies keep us apart, not words. Satan will make sure there is no unity. United we can stand against His attacks!

To become united with the Catholic church MUST be an individual decision if you are ever going to join the real church.

God Bless.

Thanks, Rob, for your thoughts.
Jon

 

[spoiltvictorian]

I can’t say - I am as conflicted as you are.

 

[JonNC]

I can’t say - I am as conflicted as you are.

Thanks. I think we chatted about this when you first came her to CAF. Have you made any progress?

Jon

 

[spoiltvictorian]

Thanks. I think we chatted about this when you first came her to CAF. Have you made any progress?

Jon

Yes, we did talk. I am to where I think it would be better to be Catholic than Lutheran, all things being equal. Of course they are not all equal, though since I am younger than you and a convert to Lutheranism I can switch more easily. 2009 is the year of primary sources - the Book of Concord, the corresponding Catholic writings like the Confutatio, and a lot of praying.