Fish or cut bait

[Realcatholicgk]

OK, since I’ve been invited to participate in the derail, I’ll have a go. Here’s my background. I’m a cradle catholic with lifelong protestant influences (though not necessarily Lutheran). I spent a week every summer at an evangelical summer camp, my folks were in a multdenominational bible study and I spent 4 years in college studying the bible with the Navigators (an evangelical university discipleship group).

Reg21’s view of justification is quite similar to that which I’ve seen in my experience. What was preached to me in those groups was essentially the following:

1. Humanity is irretrievably evil because of the fall.
2. Sin requires punishment to satisfy justice.
3. God is both merciful and just, so the only way for us to be saved was for God the Son to become human and to receive the punishment for all our sins (suffering and death).
4. Since that punishment is paid, God has made a legal manuever by which the righteousness of Christ is transferred to those who place their faith in Him.
5. That righteousness ‘covers’ the believer so that God does not see his sins, but only the righteousness of Christ.

They do a fine job of rooting around and pasting a lot of verses together to support this chain of progression, but in the long run you will find it chaffes you. It simply doesn’t line up with the God you come to know in prayer and life. In spite of all the verses, I have come to the belief that these are all distortions or oversimplifications. The more I studied, the more I found that the catholic teaching lined up with the God I’d come to know in prayer. Once I realized that Scripture taken as a whole along with the Early Fathers of the Church ALSO supported this view I was finally at ease dumping the innovations of Luther and Calvin. Here is what I’ve come to believe are the more correct versions of each.

1. Humanity is good, being created in the image and likeness of God, but has a fatal flaw because of the fall. Good, but terribly fallen. NOT utterly depraved. (I’ll return to this in my next post!)
2. Sin has fatal consequences. Not because God is out there waiting to squash you for them, but because that is just what sin DOES. It’s much like the law of gravity. God isn’t angered and compelled to throw you to the ground if you step off a cliff, that’s just the outcome of gravity. Same with sin. It’s wages are death because by its very nature it damages a human’s ability to give and receive love. Justice is still real, and God is surely just. It just happens to be more subtle than the typical protestant handout tract implies.
3. God is just, merciful and LOVING. Christ became incarnate out of love for us. Without him, we were doomed to be done in by our tragic flaws. He came to call us to repentance and to Grace. He offered to those who would trust in Him the Grace to be healed of the tragic flaws of sin. But being still fatally flawed, humanity (i.e. US) reacted to his presence predictably - we killed Him (Not just Jews, or Romans or Pharisees, ALL of us bear the responsibility). But by rising from the dead and reaffirming his love and mercy for us, He established new hope for us all by that proof of his love and continued offer of mercy and grace. Yes, He DID suffer the consequences of our sin and pay the price for us, but again it is more profound than was ever explained to me in protestantdom.
   4/5. Here is where (IMO) the protestant doctrine I was taught is just plain wrong. Christ didn’t come to ‘cover’ our sins (and Scripture never says He did). He came to REMAKE us, to heal the fatal flaw of the fall and restore us to God’s original plan for humanity. When we enter into heaven we will not BE sinners covered by Grace, we will be utterly sanctified humanity, sinners no more. By Grace we will no longer have even the inclination towards sin that plagues us still today. This demonstrably doesn’t happen in an instant. There is usually little difference in character immediately before and after a sinner utters the protestant ‘sinners prayer.’ Sanctification takes a lifetime of small moments of Grace, small decisions to trust Christ, small surrenders of our own will/desires, with a few big ones oftentimes thrown in for encouragement!
   **
   Hi manual,

Excellent post. I am suprised you survived (For lack of another word) the protestant influences in your life. Satan is strong, I tend to keep my distance, Not from Protestants who are good and prayful people. But, their teachings and corrupt beliefs. I could never bible study with them my outbursts of “Bull Manure” would get me thrown out! **

 

[manualman]

OK, I promised more follow-up on item #1 in my responses to the portestantism that has been preached to me.

I emphasized the difference between the catholic idea of “good, but fallen” and the protestant notion of “utterly depraved.” In either case, the result is hell so it’s just semantics, right?

No.

While the final outcome may indeed be the same there is a whole lotta difference in the meantime here on earth. Pagans still have good in them. There is a residual of God’s image and likeness that allows them to love one another, build communities, establish civilizations, etc.

The same goes for divisions in christianity. In much of history, both sides have at times behaved as if there was nothing good about the other. Indeed, if Christ really DID will for there to be ONE Church (and Scripture says He did), then clearly SOMEBODY made some rather poor decisions to get us the complete mess we have today! But just as with the pagans, God works subtly in people. Rare is the human who is immaculately good or utterly evil. Generally, we’re works in progress displaying both the fruit of Grace and the rot of sin.

It is my belief that God never willed there to be a split in His people (and Scripture is quite supportive of me on this). So why does He appear to bless multiple christian communities that are at odds? Well, He’s not one to throw out the baby with the bathwater, is he? In each of these christian communities there is Grace at work. But that doesn’t relieve us of the responsibility to discern His will about there being UNITY in the body of Christ.

It is because of His love and mercy that God continues to work through those communities that originated in serious error or even sin. This doesn’t justify the original schism that created them, but does reflect the reality that those living within breakaway christian communities generally aren’t responsible for the breakup of christendom. At least until God points out that such disunity is in contradiction to His will. Once you are convicted of THAT, you have some hard discerning to do (and so do I).

Hope my rambling is helpful.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

To my Catholic friends,
Over the course of the last few years, and through my discussions here and in readings, there are a number of issues that traditionally divided the Lutheran and Catholic traditions that I have to a great degree reconciled with, including justification, the Eucharist, and even purgatory (at least the way I’ve heard it explained recently).
Thanks to a recent discussion with Realcatholicgk, I have come to point where I must make a decision: do I continue to consider looking into the Catholic Church on a personal basis, or do I abandon this exploration and simply look to and pray for the corporate unity which I desire so much? In short, should I continue to fish, or just cut bait?
To that end, I will post in different threads a couple of questions that I need answered. On the front side I will thank you for all honest opinions offered, and will not respond except to answer or ask questions, or simply to thank.

My fiest question is, bluntly, which Catholic Church would I be joining? Is it this one:

Or this:

Gottle of Geer

and CCC

Jon

This was the dilemma faced by Richard Neuhaus.

If you haven’t yet read his story, it is here:

by Richard John Neuhaus
Copyright (c) 2002 First Things (April 2002).

This is more a story than an argument. It is in some ways a very personal story, and yet not without broader implications. It is just possible that some may discern in the story suggestions of an argument, even an argument about the nature of Lutheranism, and of Protestantism more generally.
When in 1990 I was received by the late John Cardinal O’Connor into full communion with the Catholic Church-on September 8, the Nativity of Our Lady-I issued a short statement in response to the question Why. With Lutheran friends especially in mind, I said, “To those of you with whom I have traveled in the past, know that we travel together still. In the mystery of Christ and his Church nothing is lost, and the broken will be mended. If, as I am persuaded, my communion with Christ’s Church is now the fuller, then it follows that my unity with all who are in Christ is now the stronger. We travel together still.”

Full story here:

firstthings.com/article.php3?id_article=2007

 

[manualman]

Realcath,

I’m a bit of a contrarian. Those protestants in college were the only spiritual community I had then and played a big role in helping me sort out my values and priorities in life. I’m grateful they were there and that they had the patience to put up with my occasional objections to their ideas (like the guy that suggested we have ‘communion’ with some Doritos and CocaCola. In fairness, he was trying to make a point about the mere symbolism, but STILL!).

Are there wrong ideas in certain protestant communities that are dangerous? Possibly even devilishly planned? Yes. But we’ve got wolves in sheep’s clothing in our Church too. I found the Navs less dangerous than my university’s campus parish where everyone was and EM for the person behind them, the bread had honey in it (and I say bread on purpose), the Lord’s prayer was ‘improved’ to Our Father, Our Mother, God who art in heaven… You get the idea.

People aren’t evil because they are protestant and the devil isn’t limited to using protestants to plant temptations or dangerous ideas. Nor is God limited to using catholics as agents of His Grace in the world. I don’t like to downplay the differences between believers, but I don’t like to demonize either. It’s a tricky balance. Stick with the truth, but don’t use it as a club either!

 

[manualman]

Oh great. Like my story can compete with Fr. Neuhaus.

Upstaged again!

 

[mercygate]

Thanks for this, wina. One of the hard things is, as someone (a Catholic) said to me in a PM, I’m aculturated Lutheran: Lutheran pastor dad, entire family Lutheran, daughter at a Lutheran college going into education. I’m trying very hard to keep my mind and heart open to the HS’s guidance. It is nice to know that someone who doesn’t even know me understands that.

Jon

When I was in a spot similar to yours – DEEPLY Anglican in culture and heart but Catholic in all but profession – I prayed:

Lord, if the Catholic Church really IS Your Church, then I need to be IN it and not OUTSIDE of it. Do whatever you must to put me there.

 

[CHESTERTONRULES]

Oh great. Like my story can compete with Fr. Neuhaus.

Upstaged again!

He is the ultimate contemporary example of intelligent grace and humility IMO. I’ve only started truly appreciating him since his death.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

…People aren’t evil because they are protestant and the devil isn’t limited to using protestants to plant temptations or dangerous ideas. Nor is God limited to using catholics as agents of His Grace in the world. I don’t like to downplay the differences between believers, but I don’t like to demonize either. It’s a tricky balance. Stick with the truth, but don’t use it as a club either!
**
Hi manual,
Many people misunderstand me and others. I do not hate Protestants. Never have never will! There are many good and holy people who deserve to be saved! Sure all groups have faults. The RCC has the Holy Spirit to keep us as uncorrupted as possible considering our Free will to mess up!
Protestants get so self righteous, sometimes a club is the only way to get their attention. History shows that Jesus established only one church 2,000 years ago. They are no part of it. They aren’t and that is a fact! They can pretend all day that they are “christians”. Just like children play they are cops and robbers. However if they do not have the authority and are not following the teachings of Christ they can not be Christian. That is a very old teaching of the Church that is still taught today even with the Protestant and the Devil attempting to change our Church’s treachings.

We use our teaching **to prove our points. Protestants use our teachings to prove their points!

I laugh sometimes when I see how much Satan has twisted the meaning of our scriptures and filled their minds with false teachings. Archbishop Fulton J. Sheen said ,over 50 years ago, “There are not more than 100 people in the world who truly hate the Catholic Church, but there are millions who hate what they perceive to be the Catholic Church.” I think it may be up to 125 people by now!

" There are countless millions of people, who call themselves Christians, who will not accept anything, even Christ, from the Catholic Church. And if they don’t get Him from there they don’t get Him at all!" - RealCatholicgk, a nobody!

All we can do is pray for them to see the truth.

God Bless
.

 

[manualman]

What makes a christian? Baptism.
Does the Catholic Church require rebaptism of protestant converts to catholicism? Nope.
Why not? Because most protestant baptisms are valid. Real Grace is conferred.
This isn’t manualman talking, this is canon law. No rebaptism for those already baptised validly.

The Church makes it painfully clear that salvation come from the catholic church, but that even our separated brethren enjoy a portion of the Graces Christ gives via the Church.

The proper response to bad treatment by protestants is not to do the same to them!

 

[JonNC]

manualman, CRules, and Mercygate,
Thanks for your contributions here. I am planning to read more about Fr. Neuhaus, and I truly appreciate your prayer, Mercygate.
Manualman, you state your faith firmly, yet with comapssion and charity.

Thanks to you all,
Jon

 

[Realcatholicgk]

manualman, CRules, and Mercygate,
Thanks for your contributions here. I am planning to read more about Fr. Neuhaus, and I truly appreciate your prayer, Mercygate.
Manualman, you state your faith firmly, yet with comapssion and charity.

Thanks to you all,

Jon

**
Hi Jon,

Yea they are nice people. Like me they tell the truth! Which is always good!

I agree with what the Pope said back in 1997 that you quote: Of course, good can come out of evil and also non-christian churches. Even Mormons and Heathens sometimes find their way to Catholicism!

Here Jon, Read this and think about changing your signature so as not to deceive! Half truths are lies aren’t they?.

"The view that Protestants cannot have churches was first set out by Pope Benedict seven years ago when, as Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, he headed the Vatican ministry for doctrine. A commentary attached to the latest text acknowledged that his 2000 document, Dominus Iesus, had caused “no little distress”. But it added: “It is nevertheless difficult to see how the title of ‘Church’ could possibly be attributed to [Protestant communities], given that they do not accept the theological notion of the Church in the Catholic sense and that they lack elements considered essential to the Catholic Church.” The Pope’s old department, which issued the document, said its aim was to correct “erroneous or ambiguous” interpretations of the Second Vatican Council, which ended in 1965. Quoting a text approved by the council, it said Protestant churches, “because of the absence of the sacramental priesthood”, had not “preserved the genuine and integral substance of the Eucharistic Mystery”
Click On: Complete article**

Please don’t use Catholic statements to “justify” your group it just can’thappen. The Holy Spirit protects our church from error!

I really do understand your grief, and disbelief, but the Truth is the Truth!Counterfeit is counterfeit. Not following Jesus’ teachings can not make you a Christian nor a group a church!

You remain in my prayers daily!

God Bless

 

[manualman]

What Benedict was REALLY trying to do there was preserve the truth that there is only ONE Church. Though they may protest my saying it, protestants are actually catholics by virtue of their baptism. Instead of citing him to tell protestants they have no ‘church’ just adapt your own language so that YOU use the proper term ‘faith communities.’

Nobody converts from being told they are wrong. They convert when they see Christ present in the people of His Church. It can be tempting to take pride in being part of the one, holy, catholic church - until you get a reality check that points out your utter lack of credit in the matter!

 

[wina]

OK, since I’ve been invited to participate in the derail, I’ll have a go. Here’s my background. I’m a cradle catholic with lifelong protestant influences (though not necessarily Lutheran). I spent a week every summer at an evangelical summer camp, my folks were in a multdenominational bible study and I spent 4 years in college studying the bible with the Navigators (an evangelical university discipleship group).

Reg21’s view of justification is quite similar to that which I’ve seen in my experience. What was preached to me in those groups was essentially the following:

1. Humanity is irretrievably evil because of the fall.
2. Sin requires punishment to satisfy justice.
3. God is both merciful and just, so the only way for us to be saved was for God the Son to become human and to receive the punishment for all our sins (suffering and death).
4. Since that punishment is paid, God has made a legal manuever by which the righteousness of Christ is transferred to those who place their faith in Him.
5. That righteousness ‘covers’ the believer so that God does not see his sins, but only the righteousness of Christ.

They do a fine job of rooting around and pasting a lot of verses together to support this chain of progression, but in the long run you will find it chaffes you. It simply doesn’t line up with the God you come to know in prayer and life. In spite of all the verses, I have come to the belief that these are all distortions or oversimplifications. The more I studied, the more I found that the catholic teaching lined up with the God I’d come to know in prayer. Once I realized that Scripture taken as a whole along with the Early Fathers of the Church ALSO supported this view I was finally at ease dumping the innovations of Luther and Calvin. Here is what I’ve come to believe are the more correct versions of each.

1. Humanity is good, being created in the image and likeness of God, but has a fatal flaw because of the fall. Good, but terribly fallen. NOT utterly depraved. (I’ll return to this in my next post!)
2. Sin has fatal consequences. Not because God is out there waiting to squash you for them, but because that is just what sin DOES. It’s much like the law of gravity. God isn’t angered and compelled to throw you to the ground if you step off a cliff, that’s just the outcome of gravity. Same with sin. It’s wages are death because by its very nature it damages a human’s ability to give and receive love. Justice is still real, and God is surely just. It just happens to be more subtle than the typical protestant handout tract implies.
3. God is just, merciful and LOVING. Christ became incarnate out of love for us. Without him, we were doomed to be done in by our tragic flaws. He came to call us to repentance and to Grace. He offered to those who would trust in Him the Grace to be healed of the tragic flaws of sin. But being still fatally flawed, humanity (i.e. US) reacted to his presence predictably - we killed Him (Not just Jews, or Romans or Pharisees, ALL of us bear the responsibility). But by rising from the dead and reaffirming his love and mercy for us, He established new hope for us all by that proof of his love and continued offer of mercy and grace. Yes, He DID suffer the consequences of our sin and pay the price for us, but again it is more profound than was ever explained to me in protestantdom.
   4/5. Here is where (IMO) the protestant doctrine I was taught is just plain wrong. Christ didn’t come to ‘cover’ our sins (and Scripture never says He did). He came to REMAKE us, to heal the fatal flaw of the fall and restore us to God’s original plan for humanity. When we enter into heaven we will not BE sinners covered by Grace, we will be utterly sanctified humanity, sinners no more. By Grace we will no longer have even the inclination towards sin that plagues us still today. This demonstrably doesn’t happen in an instant. There is usually little difference in character immediately before and after a sinner utters the protestant ‘sinners prayer.’ Sanctification takes a lifetime of small moments of Grace, small decisions to trust Christ, small surrenders of our own will/desires, with a few big ones oftentimes thrown in for encouragement!

Well said:thumbsup:
Thanks I’ve learnt from you too.

 

[wina]

What makes a christian? Baptism.
Does the Catholic Church require rebaptism of protestant converts to catholicism? Nope.
Why not? Because most protestant baptisms are valid. Real Grace is conferred.
This isn’t manualman talking, this is canon law. No rebaptism for those already baptised validly.

The Church makes it painfully clear that salvation come from the catholic church, but that even our separated brethren enjoy a portion of the Graces Christ gives via the Church.

The proper response to bad treatment by protestants is not to do the same to them!

Well, I’m a little bit confused here. Because I know that Catholic Church doesn’t require rebaptism of protenstant (which I do believe is Lutheran), but with other protestant such as Baptist, Pantecost or… will require to be rebaptisted? (is it correct or wrong? )

 

[Realcatholicgk]

What Benedict was REALLY trying to do there was preserve the truth that there is only ONE Church. Though they may protest my saying it, protestants are actually catholics by virtue of their baptism.

**Hi manual,
This is 100% True! **

Instead of citing him to tell protestants they have no ‘church’ just adapt your own language so that YOU use the proper term ‘faith communities.’

**The Pope said what he said ! The Papal Bulls agree with what he and I believe. Change the words? Do you mean LIE?
I could say “FALSE Faith Communities” if you like, but “Counterfeit” means the same doesn’t it? It does in my language. **

Nobody converts from being told they are wrong. They convert when they see Christ present in the people of His Church.

They convert when they are convinced they are wrong. You can’t convert anyone neither can I. Jesus can “IF” they could listen to his. 61,000 counterfeit groups none say the cathilic church is the true church [Surprise! bigger surprise none think the others are either! nd none is older than 5oo years old! !

It can be tempting to take pride in being part of the one, holy, catholic church - until you get a reality check that points out your utter lack of credit in the matter!
**
I can take no pride in being saved! I hzaved final judgment to face like everyone else. I won’t go to Hell for anyone. If God says did you witness to the truth, I will lift my head up off the floor and say I sure did God! Every time I could!
Even Protestant’s can lay claim to being members of the one holy and apostolic church, but Satan forces them to reject Jesus, and His teachings.

All honor and glory goes to Jesus! The great thing is the Catholic church is open to all who profess to love Jesus. Even the ones going 180 degree away from His teachings and insulting and rejecting His Body and His Mother whom He gave to His church!

 

[Realcatholicgk]

Well, I’m a little bit confused here. Because I know that Catholic Church doesn’t require rebaptism of protenstant (which I do believe is Lutheran), but with other protestant such as Baptist, Pantecost or… will require to be rebaptisted? (is it correct or wrong? )

**
Hi Wins,

The Protestants have 61,000 different groups and 1,375 beliefs they aren’t like real Christians, so who knows what they believe this week?

We have to pray for all of them! The Catholic [christian] church is 2,000 years old and still united in the beliefs that Jesus taught, other things taught aren’t important! **

 

[Reg21]

“The great thing is the Catholic church is open to all who profess to love Jesus.”

No it’s not, and it would be less great if it was. I think all Christians profess to love Jesus, yet the RCC is only open to those who do not believe what it has labeled heresy. The same is true of most all Christian churches.

I suppose some liberal mainline denominations could make that claim, as they have no doctrine, but I would question whether one who loves Jesus above all things would want to be a member of such a congregation.

 

[ralphinal]

“The great thing is the Catholic church is open to all who profess to love Jesus.”

No it’s not, and it would be less great if it was. I think all Christians profess to love Jesus, yet the RCC is only open to those who do not believe what it has labeled heresy. The same is true of most all Christian churches.

I suppose some liberal mainline denominations could make that claim, as they have no doctrine, but I would question whether one who loves Jesus above all things would want to be a member of such a congregation.

I am a little confused by what you are trying to say. Or, I should say, that what I think you are saying confuses me.

Yes, the Church does not allow those who hold to heresies to be public members. That is not a bad thing.

Jesus tells us that if we love him, we will keep his commandments. WE are also told that if we know CHrist, we will Know the Father. It is impossible, therefore, to know the true Jesus and be in a state of heresy. Now, you can argue about who is in the state of heresy, and that is another discussion.

 

[Reg21]

“It is impossible, therefore, to know the true Jesus and be in a state of heresy.”

But is it impossible for a heretic to profess to love Jesus?

Further, I would not think it wise judge who does and who does not love Jesus by which denomination they belong to. Lots of Catholics do not love Jesus, and lots of them do, just as with any other denomination.

 

[Realcatholicgk]

“The great thing is the Catholic church is open to all who profess to love Jesus.”

Hi Reg,

No it’s not, and it would be less great if it was. I think all Christians profess to love Jesus, yet the RCC is only open to those who do not believe what it has labeled heresy. The same is true of most all Christian churches.

**Reg 21, I will try to “work with you” I am sure, in your mind, what you waned to say was clear, it didn’t get typed that way. sorry! People can say I am a Christian, I follow Jesus the way he wants to be followed. I interpret the scriptures to tell me so!

What might Jesus say to them? Many will say to me on that day, Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?? hen I will tell them plainly, I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!~ Matt 7:22-23! You can’t deny the 2,000 year old teachings of Christ and pretend you are a Christian. Well you can but remember Matt 7: 22-23. It is Jesus answer to all Protestant groups made in the last 500 years. Confessional Lutherans are closer to Real Catholics than most phony groups!

**

I suppose some liberal mainline denominations could make that claim, as they have no doctrine, but I would question whether one who loves Jesus above all things would want to be a member of such a congregation.

**Even liberal mainline denominations, “Non-denominational Protestants” actually do have doctrine. They changes and disregard things they don’t like! Their phony scriptures and their distorted view of Christ and his teaching are really foolish!

As I said the Catholic church is “open to anyone!” They must change, not demand that Christ’s church does!

God Bless **