fisheaters

[JReducation]

I believe something similar is in most of the Rules of the consecrated religious.

Especially in the orders, more than the congregations.

I can’t get into this in the way that Br JR can as the Carmelite view of obedience is not as strict as that of the Franciscans.

It is important to note thought, which I believe the quote from St Francis Br JR supplies above alludes to. We believe that it is the voice of God coming through our superiors.

Most of the orders in the Latin Church take the model of obedience from St. Benedict. The Carmelites are a different creature, because of its origins as a brotherhood of hermits. Hermits were much more autonomous than monks. The Carmelites went from being hermits to being mendicants. That’s quite a leap. They never really went through the Benedictine or Augustinian influence. Benedict and Augustine founded monastic brotherhoods where the voice of Christ and the voice of the superior are one and the same.

In the Franciscan tradition a superior can even tell how to vote in a civil election, if he so chooses to do and it’s not a violation of human rights, because you surrendered those rights when you vowed obedience to him.

The wording of the profession is also very important. I’ve noticed that in some communities that religious vows obedience to the rule and constitutions. Among Benedictines and Franciscans, the wording is “I vow and promise to obey [insert founder] and his canonically elected successors and to observe the Holy Rule all the days of my life.”

This is what happened when Pope Benedict told Bishop Williamson to put distance between him and his opinion on the Shoah and when the pope said that had he known about Bishop Williamson’s opinion, he would not have lifted his excommunication. The idea of putting distance between you and your opinion is one that the Pope gets from St. Bonaventure and St.Benedict.

Let us not forget that the Franciscans had Brother Elias of Cortona excommunicated for disagreeing with Francis. Elias was excommunicated, expelled from the religious life and his priestly faculties were suspended and never returned to him, even after he recanted… He was never allowed to resume his place in the order. You cannot be part of the order and disagree with the founder or his successors unless they allow it. Elias died a very holy life doing penance for his heresy. This man was the Vicar General at the time and a very promising theologian and ruined his life by disagreeing with the founder. He never actually disobeyed.

In monastic and mendicant families, these things are not taken lightly. Founders and their successors are taken very seriously. You don’t even bother appealing, because you know that you’ll lose unless you have been commanded to sin and you can prove it. You’re better off backing down.

For this reason, monastic and mendicant superiors are very careful to avoid invoking the vow of obedience when they give a command. Because mendicants and monks make a solemn vow of obedience, the consequences of not obeying are very grave, even if it’s just an order to put aside an idea or put distance between you and an idea.

The average person had no formation and no understanding about the difference between solemn and simple vows. All orders make solemn vows. Religious congregations make simple vows. The moral consequences are not as grave.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Sirach2]

From the Diary of St. Faustina, #894:

I became absorbed (name removed by moderator)rayer and said my penance. Then suddenly I saw the Lord, who said to me, **My daughter, know that you give Me greter glory by a single act of obedience than by long prayers and mortifications. ** Oh how good it is to live under obedience, to live conscious of the fact the everything I do is pleasing to God!

An incident from St. Teresa of Avila’s Life:

Having made this simple vow to Fr. Gratian, she had received a command from Our Lord to found a convent in a certain city in Spain and shared the Lord’s direction with Gratian. He denied the request, even though he knew well enough that St. Teresas locutions were authentic. He preferred another location for her to found the new convent.

St. Teresa was exceedingly disturbed and asked Jesus what she should do with this contradiction. He told her to obey, but that He would hold Gratian responsible for the consequences. I never forgot this example – even though the Lord Himself may issue a command, we are still to obey those He places over us as superiors.

 

[TrueLight]

From the Diary of St. Faustina, #894:

I became absorbed (name removed by moderator)rayer and said my penance. Then suddenly I saw the Lord, who said to me, **My daughter, know that you give Me greter glory by a single act of obedience than by long prayers and mortifications. ** Oh how good it is to live under obedience, to live conscious of the fact the everything I do is pleasing to God!

An incident from St. Teresa of Avila’s Life:

Having made this simple vow to Fr. Gratian, she had received a command from Our Lord to found a convent in a certain city in Spain and shared the Lord’s direction with Gratian. He denied the request, even though he knew well enough that St. Teresas locutions were authentic. He preferred another location for her to found the new convent.

St. Teresa was exceedingly disturbed and asked Jesus what she should do with this contradiction. He told her to obey, but that He would hold Gratian responsible for the consequences. I never forgot this example – even though the Lord Himself may issue a command, we are still to obey those He places over us as superiors.

Yet, if all St Teresa did was obey, there would be no such thing as a discalced Carmelite.

 

[Padraig1972]

**
And if at times a subject sees things which would be better or more useful to his soul than those which the superior commands him, let him sacrifice his will to God. This is true and charitable obedience which is pleasing to God and to one’s neighbor.

From the Rule and Admonitions of St. Francis of Assisi.**

It is not just about doing, it’s about attitude, values, ideas and worldview as well.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

For me the rosary is also about devotion to God, Lord Jesus Christ, Holy Virgin Mary. love, compassion and the wish for people to treat each other better.

Attitudes, values, ideas and worldview is very important. No doubt. I have already said enough and best not make this worse.

Blessings.

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Yet, if all St Teresa did was obey, there would be no such thing as a discalced Carmelite.

The split within the order had nothing to do with St Teresa.

It occurred many years after her death. During her life there were reformed and non-reformed houses within the order as there had been for many many years with many many other reforms.

Those reforms before and after St Teresa’s were eventually absorbed by the whole order.

What happened with St Teresa’s reform is that a reformed province was created, which St Teresa was against. And then the order was split. This was all done by people outside of the order. The King of Spain and the Papal legates he had assigned to work with the reform.

If it was not for the outside interference there would only be one order.

 

[JReducation]

Yet, if all St Teresa did was obey, there would be no such thing as a discalced Carmelite.

It’s important to remember that Teresa never disobeyed. She had permission for her reform of the Order in Spain. In fact, when she died she was still the Prioress of the Incarnation, the original monastery that she had entered. She was never in trouble with the order or with the Church.

The Inquisition called her in, because a very influential and mean spirited Princess of Eboli created a scandal around Teresa, because Teresa would not allow the Princess power over the nuns. The Inquisition did its job. It had a hearing and Teresa was found innocent of all charges.

The woman has never been accused of disobedience.and for every house that she opened, there is a patent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[TrueLight]

It’s important to remember that Teresa never disobeyed. She had permission for her reform of the Order in Spain. In fact, when she died she was still the Prioress of the Incarnation, the original monastery that she had entered. She was never in trouble with the order or with the Church.

The Inquisition called her in, because a very influential and mean spirited Princess of Eboli created a scandal around Teresa, because Teresa would not allow the Princess power over the nuns. The Inquisition did its job. It had a hearing and Teresa was found innocent of all charges.

The woman has never been accused of disobedience.and for every house that she opened, there is a patent.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Everytime I post something about a religious, my fingers tremble, because I know you will be right there!

I will have to look up the section, but I remember reading how she had to sneak around in the beginning so that a certain person would not find out what she and some others were up to when it came to the first house. You probably know what I’m referring to.

 

[TrueLight]

The split within the order had nothing to do with St Teresa.

It occurred many years after her death. During her life there were reformed and non-reformed houses within the order as there had been for many many years with many many other reforms.

Those reforms before and after St Teresa’s were eventually absorbed by the whole order.

What happened with St Teresa’s reform is that a reformed province was created, which St Teresa was against. And then the order was split. This was all done by people outside of the order. The King of Spain and the Papal legates he had assigned to work with the reform.

If it was not for the outside interference there would only be one order.

Oh okay.

 

[EcceAgnusDei]

Yet, if all St Teresa did was obey, there would be no such thing as a discalced Carmelite.

And let’s not forget about St. John of the Cross, who was imprisoned by his superiors for refusing to obey their order to return to his original house and thus end the reform.

I think one problem in this thread is the crossover between secular and religious. It is understandable that JReducation would bring Franciscan spirituality out in his posts, but it’s important to note that most of us reading and posting are not Franciscans, Dominicans, or Benedictines. We have taken no such vows or promises. We are free to dispute what the Master General of the Dominican order says about the Rosary. The monastic/mendicant ideal of obedience does not apply to secular laity. It certainly can serve as a wonderful example for us, but in it’s extreme forms I think it can confuse laity as to whom they owe their allegiance.

• PAX

 

[Sirach2]

True Light,
“Sneak” is a very distasteful implication against a Doctor of the Church, who *never *disobeyed. I recall reading about a foundation for which she kept the negotiations secret from outside interference from townspeople and others who would be up in arms over a new convent in their town … yet she had the approval to make the foundation in the first place. The people were concerned about competition in having to provide alms for yet another religious entity. This is not sneaking, nor is it disobedience.

 

[Padraig1972]

And let’s not forget about St. John of the Cross, who was imprisoned by his superiors for refusing to obey their order to return to his original house and thus end the reform.

I think one problem in this thread is the crossover between secular and religious. It is understandable that JReducation would bring Franciscan spirituality out in his posts, but it’s important to note that most of us reading and posting are not Franciscans, Dominicans, or Benedictines. We have taken no such vows or promises. We are free to dispute what the Master General of the Dominican order says about the Rosary. The monastic/mendicant ideal of obedience does not apply to secular laity. It certainly can serve as a wonderful example for us, but in it’s extreme forms I think it can confuse laity as to whom they owe their allegiance.

• PAX

For my part it is soon in time not be so (If God wills it). As i will seek the options the coming fall to be in formation to become a Lay Dominican. And i am a member of the rosary confranternity and has promised to at least pray 15 mysteries weekly and if possible (five or more from day to day).

Should maybe have mentioned this earlier in the thread.

 

[TrueLight]

For my part it is soon in time not be so (If God wills it). As i will seek the options the coming fall to be in formation to become a Lay Dominican. And i am a member of the rosary confranternity and has promised to at least pray 15 mysteries weekly and if possible (five or more from day to day).

Should maybe have mentioned this earlier in the thread.

Lot of folks interested in the Lay Dominicans on CAF.

 

[Padraig1972]

Lot of folks interested in the Lay Dominicans on CAF.

It is something with their way of thinking, the values and the friendlyness i feel being around dominicans. The first time when entering their church, i felt a strong love and peaceful feeling. Like being home. Since that day i have wished to be a part of their family, to learn and understand more.

Intellectually as spiritually.

 

[Melchior_1]

We are free to dispute what the Master General of the Dominican order says about the Rosary.

You might want to listen to the guy, since the “conventional” Rosary used by most of the Church is the Dominican flavor.

“This is the Rosary popularized by the Dominicans, and used by them for centuries! But lets not listen to the successor of St. Dominic when he says something about it”.

I think one problem in this thread is the crossover between secular and religious.

The Rosary itself is one such example of a crossover, as is St. Louie’s masterpiece reflections and Mariology.

The monastic/mendicant ideal of obedience does not apply to secular laity. It certainly can serve as a wonderful example for us, but in it’s extreme forms I think it can confuse laity as to whom they owe their allegiance.

If the laity makes promises it sure does apply to them. When I’m finished I’ll “owe” my allegiance to (in no particular order):

1. My wife.
2. The Pope.
3. The Successor of Holy Father Dominic.
4. The local Superior.

My “chain of command” will be a lot different than most of the laity. I’ll fall under the Right of Exemption, no different than those in the first and second orders.

 

[Melchior_1]

For my part it is soon in time not be so (If God wills it). As i will seek the options the coming fall to be in formation to become a Lay Dominican. And i am a member of the rosary confranternity and has promised to at least pray 15 mysteries weekly and if possible (five or more from day to day).

Should maybe have mentioned this earlier in the thread.

Hopefully your formation goes smoother than mine, the person who heads up our local Priory is away much of the week so we haven’t been able to meet up to officially begin the process. Quite annoying, but perhaps the Lord is continuing to teach me patience!

But even as Lay Dominicans, obedience and observance is key.

Lot of folks interested in the Lay Dominicans on CAF.

All the cool kids are doing it.

 

[TrueLight]

All the cool kids are doing it.

Ha ha!

 

[Padraig1972]

Hopefully your formation goes smoother than mine, the person who heads up our local Priory is away much of the week so we haven’t been able to meet up to officially begin the process. Quite annoying, but perhaps the Lord is continuing to teach me patience!

But even as Lay Dominicans, obedience and observance is key.

All the cool kids are doing it.

I hope so, but i do have in mind that these things could take it`s time and that is just all good. Patience, obedience and observance are three things i must keep working on.

 

[Melchior_1]

I hope so, but i do have in mind that these things could take it`s time and that is just all good. Patience, obedience and observance are three things i must keep working on.

If God is calling you to this vocation (and believe me, it’s a vocation!), he’ll work in your life to make it work.

You’re not alone with patience, I have Adult ADHD so I have very little patience (as is evidenced by my posting activity today, I am distracted from work!). I’m even seeing two medical professionals about it. How is God working in my life to help with this? He knows I have it on my heart to begin formation, but He also knows I need patience. So perhaps this is why the man I need to see to get the process started is so busy, perhaps it is my calling to wait a bit longer, and learn patience and doing things on the Lord’s time table.

I will pray for you, Johannes. And at some point in the future, perhaps you and I will be family!

 

[newyorkcatholic]

Nothing posted about obedience as far as I can see actually says you have to agree with the superior interiorly. And let’s remember how his started, the idea that the idea that the rosary was not given to St. Dominic and that we can be sure because the Master of the OPs said so.

At best I can gather that Dominicans should no longer promote the idea even though there priories are full of the image of Our Lady giving St. Dominic the rosary.

By on the forum, posted as it was to a bunch of non-Dominicans, it makes little sense. If you feel you are bound as a Dominican, promote your view or keep quiet. But why should others be convinced by that kind of logic? It’s false logic because religious founders can be wrong.

For harmony and obedience don’t outwardly disagree - I see that in the rules posted. But to actually think the founder cannot err, I don’t see that anywhere.

I certainly don’t see anywhere the idea that lay Dominicans have to think the Master can do no wrong. You can have allegiane to him without actually thinking he is God.

 

[Melchior_1]

Nothing posted about obedience as far as I can see actually says you have to agree with the superior interiorly. And let’s remember how his started, the idea that the idea that the rosary was not given to St. Dominic and that we can be sure because the Master of the OPs said so.

Critical thinking is important to Dominicans. It’s not just because the Master of the Order said so, but we also examine how he came to that conclusion. We look at historical documents. Brother JR delved a bit into the contextual elements earlier. For Dominicans we will say “we obey!” then look at the whys/hows, and break it down so that it makes sense to us and to others. Other religious orders simply just say “we obey!” and leave it at that,

At best I can gather that Dominicans should no longer promote the idea even though there priories are full of the image of Our Lady giving St. Dominic the rosary.

Like it has been said, it’s a nice image, and makes for a nice story.

By on the forum, posted as it was to a bunch of non-Dominicans, it makes little sense. If you feel you are bound as a Dominican, promote your view or keep quiet. But why should others be convinced by that kind of logic? It’s false logic because religious founders can be wrong.

For harmony and obedience don’t outwardly disagree - I see that in the rules posted. But to actually think the founder cannot err, I don’t see that anywhere.

Of course the founder can err, but as has been said by Brother JR & ByzCath; when in doubt, go with the founder. It’s like for everyone else; when in doubt, go with the Pope.

I certainly don’t see anywhere the idea that lay Dominicans have to think the Master can do no wrong. You can have allegiane to him without actually thinking he is God.

Nowhere did I say that the Master of the Order is God. What I, and others, are saying is that he is the successor of Holy Father Dominic. Upon my final promises I become a full member of that family, with all the rights that a family member has. The Master of the Order becomes my father, my spiritual father just as Dominic was at the founding of his order.