Five hundred lay people echo priests’ plea to stand firm on Communion for the remarried

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JimR-OCDS said:
BTW, I think rather than think that the Church will change this “doctrine,” what would be more probable is to say that their could be development about the doctrine which will not only make it more clear, but also help the Church to adhere to the doctrine while helping divorced and remarried Catholics to come back into full union with the Church.

Thoughts ?

Jim
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Agreed. Papa Francis requested this synod. As the ultimate pastor, he understands that there need to be, at least, a change in tone when it comes to denying the faithful access to the Eucharist due to a divorce.:cool:
 
ProVobis said:
As we’re learning more and more about the psychology of these matters, I’d expect more “grounds” to be listed moving forward. But this does not change the underlying theology.
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As long as it isn’t “pop” psychology we’re learning from, I’m inclined to agree. It could very well be that what comes out of all this, is a longer list of causes to grant a decree of nullity.

The other thing I would hope results from this, if this is the direction taken, is some uniformisation of the process. From reading this forum it seems pretty clear to me that the process is uneven at best, varies greatly from diocese to diocese, and can cost from nothing to thousands. The least one could ask for is that a Catholic in Montreal get the same treatment as a Catholic in say, Chicago, and vice-versa, when applying for an annulment.
 
ProVobis said:
As we’re learning more and more about the psychology of these matters, I’d expect more “grounds” to be listed moving forward. But this does not change the underlying theology.
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This is what I think too.
OraLabora said:
As long as it isn’t “pop” psychology we’re learning from, I’m inclined to agree. It could very well be that what comes out of all this, is a longer list of causes to grant a decree of nullity.

The other thing I would hope results from this, if this is the direction taken, is some uniformisation of the process. From reading this forum it seems pretty clear to me that the process is uneven at best, varies greatly from diocese to diocese, and can cost from nothing to thousands. The least one could ask for is that a Catholic in Montreal get the same treatment as a Catholic in say, Chicago, and vice-versa, when applying for an annulment.
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I agree, the process will never be totally uniform, but it should be as uniform as possible, and could probably improve.

To be fair though, it’s very easy to complain and say the process “takes too long” and is “too bureaucratic”, etc, etc, but if the people involved are doing the best they can with the resources available to them, then that’s really all we can ask 🤷
 
OraLabora said:
As long as it isn’t “pop” psychology we’re learning from, I’m inclined to agree. It could very well be that what comes out of all this, is a longer list of causes to grant a decree of nullity.

The other thing I would hope results from this, if this is the direction taken, is some uniformisation of the process. From reading this forum it seems pretty clear to me that the process is uneven at best, varies greatly from diocese to diocese, and can cost from nothing to thousands. The least one could ask for is that a Catholic in Montreal get the same treatment as a Catholic in say, Chicago, and vice-versa, when applying for an annulment.
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Right. Personally I’d like to see an automatic application for annulment after a civil divorce. Before involving third parties and such if possible. They can always terminate the processing if it becomes a problem. What’s there to gain by maintaining a state of divorce for any period of time?
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I think what constitutes an annulment would be better understood and could possibly be granted by a pastor over a tribunal.
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And you think that the average parish priest would have the knowledge, skills and resources to investigate, discern and then decide that God did not actually join these two people together in marriage in the first place?
 
kozlosap said:
As the ultimate pastor, he understands that there need to be, at least, a change in tone when it comes to denying the faithful access to the Eucharist due to a divorce.:cool:
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I would say that statement is pure conjecture. His comments regarding the need for the Synod have been that simply that different means of ministering are required. And even then, the context where he made those statements was in regard to married couples.

And the ‘tone’ for those who are divorced has been nothing BUT welcoming

Here is Pope St. John Paul II, in Familaris Consortio. How is this statement not loving, and there is no mention at all about denying them access to Holy Communion, in fact, just the opposite, it clearly states that the is no obstacle to admission to the Sacraments.
The situation is similar for people who have undergone divorce, but, being well aware that the valid marriage bond is indissoluble, refrain from becoming involved in a new union and devote themselves solely to carrying out their family duties and the responsibilities of Christian life. In such cases their example of fidelity and Christian consistency takes on particular value as a witness before the world and the Church. Here it is even more necessary for the Church to offer continual love and assistance, without there being any obstacle to admission to the sacraments.
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JimR-OCDS said:
Not my experience, but that of others close to me, one which included me being asked to write my account of the marriage.

Don’t jump to conclusions on what you think I meant, but just read what I posted.

I didn’t say all dioceses.

That being said, Pope Francis called for the synod for a reason which I’m sure there is a reason.

If it was all going smoothly, there would be no debate over it as we’re seeing today.

Jim
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JimR-OCDS, you made the following general statement in post 27:

“The marriage tribunals are too disconnected from the people involved, when it comes to the annulment application process.”

If you said that “The marriage tribunals in my diocese…” I would see your point, but you instead made a general statement.

Nothing “all goes smoothly” in this world. What else would you like to change because it does not meet your expectations?
 
ProVobis said:
Right. Personally I’d like to see an automatic application for annulment after a civil divorce. Before involving third parties and such if possible. They can always terminate the processing if it becomes a problem. What’s there to gain by maintaining a state of divorce for any period of time?
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That was the case for me. I was civily married and divorced. When I met with the priest to clear up my mess prior to getting remarried he looked very relieved when I told him it was a civil marriage. It was a different form and I think it only cost about $40 or so. I got my approval in less than two weeks. I don’t know if this is the same everywhere, this was the Boston Diocese. Does the process differ that much from place to place?

ETA: I think it’s the feeling of being given a second chance that makes me very sympathetic to all of those who are not allowed to receive communion. Obedience to cannon law brings it’s own special kind of grace but it’s still a tough pill to swallow.
 
J_Peterson said:
I got my approval in less than two weeks. I don’t know if this is the same everywhere, this was the Boston Diocese.
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Probably not. But it seems to go faster if there is no one else involved. Once you start dating seriously, not so much. And if you remarry, then investigation has to involve the new partner. Better to have this all resolved ASAP after the civil divorce. There’s really nothing to be gained by staying divorced, even if you have no plans to remarry. Those divorced who feel unwelcome in church have no one other than themselves to blame IMO. Being “free to marry” seems to be the best route for a lot of people.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
BTW, I think rather than think that the Church will change this “doctrine,” what would be more probable is to say that their could be development about the doctrine which will not only make it more clear, but also help the Church to adhere to the doctrine while helping divorced and remarried Catholics to come back into full union with the Church.

Thoughts ?

Jim
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This has already been discussed and according to some sources communion for the divorced/civilly remarried does **not **meet the (7) requirements of authentic development of doctrine because there is a discontinuity with earlier teaching. (at least according to the Newman criteria.)

catholicworldreport.com/Item/3490/Cardinal_Newman_the_Synod_and_the_Kasper_Proposal.aspx
 
JimR-OCDS said:
I think what constitutes an annulment would be better understood and could possibly be granted by a pastor over a tribunal.
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This is rather scary to think of. Due to differences in education, experience and background and the very functions of a tribunal vs a parish priest, I would be very leery of this and see no uniformity in the process at all. Tribunals are even sometimes involved with issues relating to Canon Law.
 
Brendan_64 said:
And you think that the average parish priest would have the knowledge, skills and resources to investigate, discern and then decide that God did not actually join these two people together in marriage in the first place?
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Yes the average priest would have the required education to discern if the first marriage was valid or not, by speaking with the couple themselves.

Lack of faith when the first marriage took place would be grounds.

If the case was too difficult for the pastor, then he could refer the case to the diocese.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Yes the average priest would have the required education to discern if the first marriage was valid or not, by speaking with the couple themselves.
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:eek: I would most certainly disagree with that. I have come across quite a few priests who disagree with basic Catholic teaching on a range of issues (female ordination, the validity of Anglican orders, homosexual relationships etc.) and then there is the issue that while some priests are indeed very learned, some others (although they may be good pastoral men) aren’t exactly the sharpest tools in the box as regards intelligence, and you would entrust them with such a decision as determining whether God had originally joined a couple in marriage in the first place.

This would seem to be a way in which people can get the outcome the wish simply by finding a parish priest who is ‘liberal’ enough to grant them an annulment. This would seem not to be based around carefully determining whether God had joined the two people in marriage in the first place, but around making it easy for people to get the ‘result’ they want.

If a priest grants an annulment to a marriage that was actually valid in the first place, then despite having had the original marriage signed off as invalid, any subsequent marriage is not actually a marriage in the eyes of God.

Handing the decision on whether to annul a marriage over to parish priests would in reality make a Catholic annulment an easier thing to obtain than a civil divorce, and without having to involve anyone trained in law of any sort (Canon Law or otherwise). That would be a travesty and a mockery of Christ’s words on marriage.
 
Brendan_64 said:
:eek: I would most certainly disagree with that. I have come across quite a few priests who disagree with basic Catholic teaching on a range of issues (female ordination, the validity of Anglican orders, homosexual relationships etc.) and then there is the issue that while some priests are indeed very learned, some others (although they may be good pastoral men) aren’t exactly the sharpest tools in the box as regards intelligence, and you would entrust them with such a decision as determining whether God had originally joined a couple in marriage in the first place.

This would seem to be a way in which people can get the outcome the wish simply by finding a parish priest who is ‘liberal’ enough to grant them an annulment. This would seem not to be based around carefully determining whether God had joined the two people in marriage in the first place, but around making it easy for people to get the ‘result’ they want.

If a priest grants an annulment to a marriage that was actually valid in the first place, then despite having had the original marriage signed off as invalid, any subsequent marriage is not actually a marriage in the eyes of God.

Handing the decision on whether to annul a marriage over to parish priests would in reality make a Catholic annulment an easier thing to obtain than a civil divorce, and without having to involve anyone trained in law of any sort (Canon Law or otherwise). That would be a travesty and a mockery of Christ’s words on marriage.
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To me, the only one’s who can discern if a marriage was valid or not, is the couple themselves with pastoral guidance.

The Synod will decide in the end, so there’s no point in arguing about it

Jim
 
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