Five hundred lay people echo priests’ plea to stand firm on Communion for the remarried

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From Cardinal Sarah, I highly recommend reading this:

chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/articolo/1351022?eng=y

A NEW FORM OF HERESY

According to my experience, in particular after twenty-three years as archbishop of Conakry and nine years as secretary of the congregation for the evangelization of peoples, the question of divorced or civilly remarried believers is not an urgent challenge for the Churches of Africa and Asia. On the contrary, this is an obsession of certain Western Churches that want to impose solutions that are called “theologically responsible and pastorally appropriate,” which radically contradict the teachings of Jesus and the magisterium of the Church. …]

In the face of the moral crisis, in particular that of marriage and the family, the Church can contribute to the search for just and constructive solutions, but it has no other possibility than to participate in it by making reference in a very vigorous way to the distinctive and unique contribution of faith in Jesus Christ to the human enterprise. In this sense it is not possible to imagine any sort of rupture between magisterium and pastoral care. The idea that would consist in putting the magisterium in a pretty box, separating it from pastoral practice, which could evolve according to circumstances, fashions, and passions, is a form of heresy, a dangerous schizophrenic pathology.

I therefore solemnly affirm that the Church of Africa will firmly oppose any rebellion against the teaching of Jesus and of the magisterium. …]
How we bless Cardinal Sarah. He has stated, “God has always involved Africa in his plan for salvation. Africa saved Jesus, at the time of the flight into Egypt. It is an African, Simon of Cyrene, who helped him carry his cross. Africa has suffered a lot. Its values were denied (and still are, through what Francis calls ideological colonialism, and in particular regarding the gender theory). It experienced slavery. The Africans’ suffering prompted John Paul II [who also announced that it would surprise the world, ed.] to say that their names are written “on the palms of Christ, pierced by the nails of the Crucifixion”. But in a few decades, the Church there has greatly developed, with many priestly and religious vocations, so that blessed Paul VI called it “the new homeland of Christ.” And as Africans are also deeply religious and cannot be separated from God, they are the ones who will restore God to the world.”

May God make him a powerful voice to the synod, never compromising truth, and joining in with these faithful lay people and priests. But he also illustrates true pastoral concern. “Love is like a flower in the desert, we must water it and guard it to prevent the animals from eating it. How do we protect love? With daily attention. How do we water it? With forgiveness. We must also take care of this plant, through prayer, attachment and dialogue. Without this, the plant, love, dies. A plant cannot survive if it is not sustained. However, the great gardener is God. If a family rejects Him, it does not last."
 
Despite the oft repeated and prosaic comment that has been made 1,000 times “the church needs to be more welcoming,” NO ONE has ever answered “in what way?” ** When has the church ever turned REPENTENT sinners away?** A: NEVER! The problem is that the “unwelcomed” seem to want to ignore the prerequisite that full communion can only mean repentance and a turning away from sin otherwise we enter dangerous territory that threatens sacramental theology. I hope everyone who continues to debate this, will re-read Crdl Mueller’s point.
I am the Church too,and my attitude has many times turned people away.
I do not have a " repentance" detector nor it is my business to stand at the door with one.

How do we repent without realizing the distance and the closeness between love and our misery?
What is " repent" " repent" that has been also written 1000 times?

How does it happen ?

I do not know what welcome means to you. For me it means make somebody feel at home,not just giving people the address… Neither jump on the sofa nor remain standing not to spoil how neat it looks.

What I would do?
I ve already said it. Wide door open for solidarity. I learn a lot there. Getting in touch with brothers and sisters who smile and laugh inspite of the tremendous difficulties they go through. Persons who give to you and ask nothing in return. Bonds of trust. Humanity at its best and worst,in all of us. And hope, and struggle,and falling and standing up. Walking the path together.

Help people who are trying to improve their lives in second marriages for ex, to go to Confession. Special Confessors if you wish.
Let them be Lectors for instance in the process so that their children can see mom and dad included in a family who loves them and helps them when they are trying. A public statement of our love for them and their love for their children. Loving,open and respectful.

I do not see any of this is changing doctrine. If it is let me know,please.

I do not know what other things as godparents there are as the Pope has said.
But we can give it a try. Lovingly.

And yes Bookcat…tons of prayer…
 
I am the Church too,and my attitude has many times turned people away.
It’s misrepresenting the Church that matters in the long run. It’s okay to admonish the sinner as long as you give them a path of reconciling to God. At the same time, I think it’s unreasonable to expect one who has defied the church publicly to be accepted wherever he or she goes without some public remorse on their part. But that is only my opinion.
 
The question is, how do we explain the teachings of the Church in ways that show their true beauty, and not the false beauty of worldly solutions.
Indeed. As we learn more and more about the psychology of relationships, sex, marriage, adultery, etc. we may get caught up into thinking ultimately that man has no free will. If so, then it’s not possible to sin, and then Christianity no longer holds any true value for us. We can’t let this happen. We need to take responsibility for our actions. Society demands it and I’m sure we will answer to our Creator for them as well.
 
It’s misrepresenting the Church that matters in the long run. It’s okay to admonish the sinner as long as you give them a path of reconciling to God. At the same time, I think it’s unreasonable to expect one who has defied the church publicly to be accepted wherever he or she goes without some public remorse on their part. But that is only my opinion.
Yes,I get what you are saying and I am glad you can help . I can be very bad with the wording.
I am thinking of common people?..What do you mean by some public remorse on their part?
And funny,though ,I did look up remorse and repent before posting. And it is like repent has a long lasting effect and implied a change in behaviour.
Solidarity is my arena.
What would you do?
 
I am not saying this “fits” any particular person here or any particular post but we do well - all of us to bear in mind the words of the Holy Father on this matter:

Pope Francis on the family synod: ‘We need prayers, not gossip’

catholicnewsagency.com/news/pope-francis-on-the-family-synod-we-need-prayers-not-gossip-17804/
Good point, thanks for the reminder. We should let the Holy Father speak for himself, and obtain his words from reliable and reliably translated sources. Without reading our own agendas into them, which those on both slides of the argument are apt to do.
 
Yes,I get what you are saying and I am glad you can help . I can be very bad with the wording.
I am thinking of common people?..What do you mean by some public remorse on their part?
And funny,though ,I did look up remorse and repent before posting. And it is like repent has a long lasting effect and implied a change in behaviour.
Solidarity is my arena.
What would you do?
Good question. I get reminded that when my wife and I were separated, we had occasion to go to a work-related Christmas party together. Our relationship was amicable (and it still is) but the discomfort others were feeling at that same table was quite obvious. I mean, what do you talk about? I guess when I realized there wasn’t much we could do at the table, we found an outside spot where we could spend the evening. I don’t know if that answers your question though.
 
Here is some more info and commentary on Card Sarah’s book “Dieu ou rien” [God or nothing].

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3807/cardinal_sarah_laments_the_true_scandal_of_confusion_between_good_and_evilmade_by_catholic_pastors.aspx

**Cardinal Sarah laments the “true scandal” of “confusion between good and evil…made by Catholic pastors”
**
A new book-length interview with the African prelate offers strong criticisms of movements to dilute the Gospel and a call to renew belief in God

April 13, 2015, Carl E. Olson

Sandro Magister has published excerpts from a new book—an interview of Cardinal Robert Sarah of Guinea—titled, “Dieu ou rien” [God or nothing], by French journalist Nicolas Diat. The Cardinal is quite candid and direct:

There is now no mistake when one realizes that there exists a form of rejection of the dogmas of the Church, or a growing distance among men, the faithful and dogmas. On the question of marriage, there is a chasm between a certain world and the Church. The question is ultimately very simple: is it the world that must change its attitude, or the Church its fidelity to God? Because if the faithful still love the Church and the pope, but do not apply its doctrine, not changing anything in their lives, not even after coming to listen to the successor of Peter in Rome, what kind of future should we expect?

Many faithful rejoice to hear about the divine mercy, and they hope that the radical nature of the Gospel could also mitigate in favor of those who have made the decision to live in rupture with the crucified love of Jesus. They think that because of the Lord’s infinite goodness everything is possible, even while deciding not to change anything about their lives. For many, it is normal that God should pour his mercy upon them while they dwell in sin. They do not understand that light and darkness cannot coexist, in spite of the many appeals of St. Paul: “What should we say then? That we should remain in sin so that grace may abound? Of course not!" …]

This confusion demands rapid responses. The Church cannot go forward as if reality did not exist: it can no longer content itself with ephemeral enthusiasms, which last for the duration of great gatherings or liturgical assemblies, as beautiful and rich as they may be. It can no longer hold back from a practical reflection on subjectivism as the root of most of the current errors. What use is it that the pope’s Twitter account is followed by hundreds of thousands of persons if men do not concretely change their lives? What use is it to tally up the figures of the crowds that throng before the popes if we are not sure that the conversions are real and profound? …]

Dr. Samuel Gregg has read the book and states, “Cardinal Kasper Could Learn from This African Bishop”:

The book’s title underscores Sarah’s central theme: societies that lose a sense of God—and not just any god, but the God who is simultaneously Caritas, Logos, Misericordia, and Veritas—and opt for nothingness cannot help but experience profound decline. This death of God/death of man theme is hardly new. It’s implied in Plato’s discussion of the three versions of atheism, and was spelt out centuries later by Nietzsche. What, however, makes Sarah’s contribution different is the sophistication with which he makes his argument. This is a man equally at home discussing the finer points of animist religions as he is with explaining the Galileo case’s more obscure dimensions.

“Man’s greatest difficulty is not,” Sarah writes, “what the Church teaches on morality; the hardest thing for the post-modern world is to believe in God” [my translation]. Drawing on sources ranging from the Hebrew and Christian Scriptures, Greek philosophers, the Church Fathers, Jewish references, Russian literature to modern French thinkers, Sarah outlines a powerful case to suggest that choices against the God who reveals Himself in the Bible are laying waste to much of the world, especially the West and even more specifically Western Europe. And in doing so—for, as anyone who has met Sarah will attest, he’s a genuinely humble man—the Cardinal born in the obscure African village of Ourous inadvertently reveals a formidable intellect that’s matched by years of pastoral experience and a profound knowledge of, and direct personal contact with, the many different challenges confronting the Catholic Church throughout the world.

For Sarah, it matters little whether the nothingness is expressed via militant atheism, Marxist materialism, secular liberalism, or the politically correct non-entity worshiped by what another Cardinal, Blessed John Henry Newman, famously condemned as “the spirit of Liberalism in religion.” The denial of God, Sarah maintains, can only lead to one thing: an enormous void that’s invariably filled in destructive ways. These include self-absorption, hedonism, and techno-utopianism. Sarah isn’t afraid to draw an analogy between these trends in the West and the ways that he believes animist African religions fabricated false gods to help people divert themselves from the fear that grips man when he thinks he’s truly alone in the universe.

Gregg concludes:

Much more could be said about this remarkable book. Though surely not intended as a reply to Cardinal Kasper’s now-infamous comment about Africans, Dieu ou Rien illustrates that African Catholicism has more than come of age and has profound things to say to the universal church. This especially matters in light of projections, such as suggested by the recent Pew-Templeton study, that four out of every 10 Christians in the world will live in sub-Saharan Africa by 2050. As world Catholicism’s gravity shifts away from Western Europe and towards the developing world, listening to Africans like Cardinal Robert Sarah may be something that even the most hidebound of liberal German theologians won’t be able to avoid in the future.
 
Interesting comments from Cardinal Sarah, especially in regards to the Synod

catholicworldreport.com/Blog/3807/cardinal_sarah_laments_the_true_scandal_of_confusion_between_good_and_evilmade_by_catholic_pastors.aspx
According to my experience, in particular after twenty-three years as archbishop of Conakry and nine years as secretary of the congregation for the evangelization of peoples, the question of divorced or civilly remarried believers is not an urgent challenge for the Churches of Africa and Asia. On the contrary, this is an obsession of certain Western Churches that want to impose solutions that are called “theologically responsible and pastorally appropriate,” which radically contradict the teachings of Jesus and the magisterium of the Church.
 
The question is ultimately very simple: is it the world that must change its attitude, or the Church its fidelity to God? Because if the faithful still love the Church and the pope, but do not apply its doctrine, not changing anything in their lives, not even after coming to listen to the successor of Peter in Rome, what kind of future should we expect?
Nicely put by Cardinal Sarah.
 
How do we repent without realizing the distance and the closeness between love and our misery?
What is " repent" " repent" that has been also written 1000 times?

How does it happen ?
According to the Church, this is the journey for all of us, at all times - a greater awareness of sin, sorrow for having offended God and a resolve to sin no more. Nothing very complicated here at all.
I do not know what welcome means to you. For me it means make somebody feel at home,not just giving people the address… Neither jump on the sofa nor remain standing not to spoil how neat it looks.
What I would do?
I ve already said it. Wide door open for solidarity. I learn a lot there. Getting in touch with brothers and sisters who smile and laugh inspite of the tremendous difficulties they go through. Persons who give to you and ask nothing in return. Bonds of trust. Humanity at its best and worst,in all of us. And hope, and struggle,and falling and standing up. Walking the path together.
Quite honestly, there are divorced/remarried at our parish. At no time have I ever seen anyone be unwelcoming to them, in fact, I would assume there are many who do not even know their situation. They come to Mass, they might have coffee and donuts - some are part of smaller social groups. One such couple goes to dinner once a month within our own small group. What else can we do for them and of what are we being accused?
Help people who are trying to improve their lives in second marriages for ex, to go to Confession. Special Confessors if you wish. I do not see any of this is changing doctrine. If it is let me know,please.
Yes - this does pertain to doctrine (that’s the crux of the whole issue) and they may not partake of any of the sacraments, including Confession if they are civilly married without benefit of an annulment for this is adultery. There are special considerations for those willing to abstain from sexual relations. (Read this: )

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio.html.)
 
According to the Church, this is the journey for all of us, at all times - a greater awareness of sin, sorrow for having offended God and a resolve to sin no more. Nothing very complicated here at all.

Quite honestly, there are divorced/remarried at our parish. At no time have I ever seen anyone be unwelcoming to them, in fact, I would assume there are many who do not even know their situation. They come to Mass, they might have coffee and donuts - some are part of smaller social groups. One such couple goes to dinner once a month within our own small group. What else can we do for them and of what are we being accused?

Yes - this does pertain to doctrine (that’s the crux of the whole issue) and they may not partake of any of the sacraments, including Confession if they are civilly married without benefit of an annulment for this is adultery. There are special considerations for those willing to abstain from sexual relations. (Read this: )

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio.html.)
Hi Tigg, you have asked in this post exactly what my understanding is of what Pope Francis is asking. “What else can we do for them?”

I really do hope and pray there is something else we can do for them even if at the very least we help them to better understand church teaching.

My only fear, from following these kinds of threads in as much as I have, is that if there is something more that can be done for them that it will be viewed and treated with the same rational, resistance, criticism and skepticism that Vatican I and Ii and the subsequent church teachings have been.

My hope and prayer is that what ever is decided, whether the church can or can not do anything to better serve the family’s in irregular status, that it is proclaimed so crystal clearly that there will be no possible way for anyone to miss-understand what is being proclaimed.
 
i
Good question. I get reminded that when my wife and I were separated, we had occasion to go to a work-related Christmas party together. Our relationship was amicable (and it still is) but the discomfort others were feeling at that same table was quite obvious. I mean, what do you talk about? I guess when I realized there wasn’t much we could do at the table, we found an outside spot where we could spend the evening. I don’t know if that answers your question though.
Yes , it does and very valuable. Thank you.
 
According to the Church, this is the journey for all of us, at all times - a greater awareness of sin, sorrow for having offended God and a resolve to sin no more. Nothing very complicated here at all.

Quite honestly, there are divorced/remarried at our parish. At no time have I ever seen anyone be unwelcoming to them, in fact, I would assume there are many who do not even know their situation. They come to Mass, they might have coffee and donuts - some are part of smaller social groups. One such couple goes to dinner once a month within our own small group. What else can we do for them and of what are we being accused?

Yes - this does pertain to doctrine (that’s the crux of the whole issue) and they may not partake of any of the sacraments, including Confession if they are civilly married without benefit of an annulment for this is adultery. There are special considerations for those willing to abstain from sexual relations. (Read this: )

w2.vatican.va/content/john-paul-ii/en/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_jp-ii_exh_19811122_familiaris-consortio.html.)
I understand that nobody is accusing us,that we may be doing very well at some areas and poorly at others. Now if they are saying it,it is because they see this happen.
I do understand the issue about Confession and Sacraments,I have been reading them all along. And I am a cradle catholic,Tigg.

My mistake is to get into what I have no clue how it can be solved.Honest. So I should really shut up at that one. I know solidarity because it is a more open area,and I love it. But I cannot go " inventing" the lector thing,cause it is that," inventing something. I know…It is just that again and again I think of the children.

Now about repent,I really mean that it is something special between us and God,and we have to experience it. It is not like you repent by somebody hammering the word into your head. Do you get what I mean,Tigg?
 
It’s not urgent in African and Asian cultures for preassigned marriages are still common and females, especially in Africa, don’t have much say about whom they marry and what they can do about an abusive husband or one who abandons her and her children. Culturally, she is not available for marriage, which is merely supported by religious doctrine.

So the Cardinal’s words about it not being urgent in Africa, has more to do with culture, not Catholic faith.

Start giving women equal rights in Africa and Asian cultures to men and see what happens.

Jim
 
In the case of a consummated sacramental marriages* it is not possible* for such to no longer be a such.

Except via the* death* of one of the spouses for such is the nature of a valid consummated sacramental marriage - which cannot change.

The only possibility is that such a marriage did not come into existence.
 
Very strong words from Cardinal Brandmuller’s recent interview:

lifesitenews.com/news/cardinal-brandmueller-advocates-for-changing-catholic-teaching-on-marriage

Can the Church admit remarried couples to Holy Communion, even though their second marriage is not valid in the eyes of the Church?

That would be possible if the concerned couples would make the decision to live in the future like brother and sister. This solution is especially worth considering when the care for children disallows a separation. The decision for such a path would be a convincing expression of the penance for the previous and protracted act of adultery.

Can the Church deal with the topic of marriage in a pastoral manner that is different from the continual teaching of the Church? Can the Church at all change the teaching itself without falling herself into heresy?

It is evident that the pastoral practice of the Church cannot stand in opposition to the binding doctrine nor simply ignore it. In the same manner, an architect could perhaps build a most beautiful bridge. However, if he does not pay attention to the laws of structural engineering, he risks the collapse of his construction. In the same manner, every pastoral practice has to follow the Word of God if it does not want to fail. A change of the teaching, of the dogma, is unthinkable. Who nevertheless consciously does it, or insistently demands it, is a heretic – even if he wears the Roman Purple.

Is not the whole discussion about the admittance of remarried to the Holy Eucharist also an expression of the fact that many Catholics do not believe any more in the Real Presence and rather think that they receive in Holy Communion anyway only a piece of bread?

Indeed, there is an indissoluble inner contradiction in someone who wants to receive the Body and Blood of Christ and to unite himself with Him, while in the same time he disregards consciously His Commandment. How shall this work? St. Paul says about this matter: ‘Who eats and drinks unworthily, is eating and drinking his judgment…’ But: You are right. By far not all Catholics believe in the Real Presence of Christ in the consecrated host. One can see this fact already in the way many – even priests – pass the tabernacle without genuflection.

Why is there nowadays such a strong attack on the indissolubility of marriage within the Church? A possible answer could be that the spirit of relativism has entered the Church, but there must be more reasons. Could you name some? And are not all these reasons a sign of the crisis of Faith within the Church herself?

Of course, if certain moral standards that have been valid generally, always, and everywhere are not any more recognized, then everybody makes himself his own moral law. That has as a consequence that one does what one pleases. It can be added the individualistic approach to life which regards life as a single chance for self-actualization – and not as a mission of the Creator. It is evident that such attitudes are the expression of a deeply rooted loss of Faith.

Is the German Catholic Church permitted to go her own paths in the question of the admittance of remarried couples to the Holy Eucharist and thereby decide independently of Rome, as Reinhard Cardinal Marx pronounced after the recent meeting of the German Bishops Conference?

The well-known statements of Cardinal Marx are in contradiction with the dogma of the Church. They are irresponsible in a pastoral respect, because they expose the faithful to confusion and doubts. If he thinks that he can take nationally an independent path, he puts the unity of the Church at risk. It remains: the binding standard for all of the teaching and practice of the Church are her clearly defined doctrines.
 
**
It is evident that the pastoral practice of the Church cannot stand in opposition to the binding doctrine nor simply ignore it. In the same manner, an architect could perhaps build a most beautiful bridge. However, if he does not pay attention to the laws of structural engineering, he risks the collapse of his construction. In the same manner, every pastoral practice has to follow the Word of God if it does not want to fail. A change of the teaching, of the dogma, is unthinkable. Who nevertheless consciously does it, or insistently demands it, is a heretic – even if he wears the Roman Purple.**
He has it absolutely spot on. Pastoral practice cannot contradict dogma, pastoral practice is an expression of dogma lived out in reality.
Is the German Catholic Church permitted to go her own paths in the question of the admittance of remarried couples to the Holy Eucharist and thereby decide independently of Rome, as Reinhard Cardinal Marx pronounced after the recent meeting of the German Bishops Conference?

The well-known statements of Cardinal Marx are in contradiction with the dogma of the Church. They are irresponsible in a pastoral respect, because they expose the faithful to confusion and doubts. If he thinks that he can take nationally an independent path, he puts the unity of the Church at risk. It remains: the binding standard for all of the teaching and practice of the Church are her clearly defined doctrines.
If the German Church go down this path then they are effectively doing what Henry VIII did to the Church in England, they will be setting up a Church of Germany. Archbishop Lefebvre was excommunicated for less than that.
 
It’s not urgent in African and Asian cultures for preassigned marriages are still common and females, especially in Africa, don’t have much say about whom they marry and what they can do about an abusive husband or one who abandons her and her children. Culturally, she is not available for marriage, which is merely supported by religious doctrine.

So the Cardinal’s words about it not being urgent in Africa, has more to do with culture, not Catholic faith.

Start giving women equal rights in Africa and Asian cultures to men and see what happens.

Jim
Yes, for sure, or maybe just stop Female Genital Mutilation.
 
It’s not urgent in African and Asian cultures for preassigned marriages are still common and females, especially in Africa, don’t have much say about whom they marry
I go to Africa regularly, doing work in a rural diocese in Tanzania. When I am there, I am fortunate to be able to stay in the bishop’s residence. So I have had PLENTY of time to speak with African bishops about the issues with marriage (the bishop and the bishop emeritus).

Yes, they very much have to deal with multiple marriages. In Tanzania at least, it is about a 1/3 Christian, 1/3 Muslim and a 1/3 African tribal religion.

When there is a conversion, there is a strong potential that it would involve a man with multiple wives.

Now only one can be his true wife, the first one he married. So yes, African bishops have to deal with men who would very much like to continue conjugal relations with a woman who he might be legally married to , but who is not his legitimate wife.

That is why this issue is of so import to African bishops. What answer would they have to potential converts who would (rightly) claim that the Church allows white men to live with and have sex with a second wife, but they cannot. Why would white Europeans have permission from the Church for adultery, but Africans cannot?

The African bishops have the ability to teach authentic teaching on marriage to polygamists, and gain HUGE numbers of converts; so it is not surprising that they expect their brother bishops in Europe to do the same in regards to cases of divorce and remarriage.

They view their role in the world is to conform THEIR culture to the Church, not to conform the Church to the local culture ( and yes, that IS what they see what is happening in Europe)
 
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