Five hundred lay people echo priests’ plea to stand firm on Communion for the remarried

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Brendan said:
I go to Africa regularly, doing work in a rural diocese in Tanzania. When I am there, I am fortunate to be able to stay in the bishop’s residence. So I have had PLENTY of time to speak with African bishops about the issues with marriage (the bishop and the bishop emeritus).

Yes, they very much have to deal with multiple marriages. In Tanzania at least, it is about a 1/3 Christian, 1/3 Muslim and a 1/3 African tribal religion.

When there is a conversion, there is a strong potential that it would involve a man with multiple wives.

Now only one can be his true wife, the first one he married. So yes, African bishops have to deal with men who would very much like to continue conjugal relations with a woman who he might be legally married to , but who is not his legitimate wife.

That is why this issue is of so import to African bishops. What answer would they have to potential converts who would (rightly) claim that the Church allows white men to live with and have sex with a second wife, but they cannot. Why would white Europeans have permission from the Church for adultery, but Africans cannot?

The African bishops have the ability to teach authentic teaching on marriage to polygamists, and gain HUGE numbers of converts; so it is not surprising that they expect their brother bishops in Europe to do the same in regards to cases of divorce and remarriage.

They view their role in the world is to conform THEIR culture to the Church, not to conform the Church to the local culture ( and yes, that IS what they see what is happening in Europe)
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Well there’s a difference between having multiple wives at the same time verses a man who’s 1st marriage failed and he remarried.

Jim
 
JimR-OCDS said:
what they can do about an abusive husband or one who abandons her and her children.
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And what makes you think than an African bishop (or any bishop for that matter) would not seek to help such women??

In fact, it’s rather insulting to hear an implication that any Catholic bishop, of any nationality, would not seek to help an abandoned woman and her children.

That was was brought me to Tanzania in the first place. The bishop was in the US to fundraise for a school that he was building to help train such women to support themselves.

He came to my parish several years ago on such a mission appleal, and my pastor was wise enough to arrange a meeting with me to disuses adding computer training to the school ( I work in the IT industry)

My parish did additional fundraising and I went over there to install the computers and train the teachers.

But it all started with a bishop who cared for such women AND respected the indisolubiliyt of marriage.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Well there’s a difference between having multiple wives at the same time verses a man who’s 1st marriage failed and he remarried.

Jim
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No, they are both cases of adultery.

He is actually only married to one (his first) and conjugal relations with other women ( even if they are married under civil law) is still an adulterous act.
 
Brendan said:
No, they are both cases of adultery.

He is actually only married to one (his first) and conjugal relations with other women ( even if they are married under civil law) is still an adulterous act.
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In cultures like Africa where polygamy is acceptable, they don’t see it that way.

Africa and Asia have problems far greater with respect to equality for women than Western Society has where divorced and remarried Catholics are seeking a way to return to full union with the Church.

Jim
 
McCall1981 said:
Functionally, no, it’s not different. As Card Napier points out here, sucessive polygamy (ie. remarriage) is the same as simultaneous polygamy far as this issue is considered:

lifesitenews.com/news/why-not-communion-for-polygamists-if-we-give-it-to-divorced-and-remarried-s
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I do so LOVE the African bishops. I heard that almost identical example from the bishop that I stay with… over a bottle of wine sitting in his living room.

Interestingly enough, that was over three years ago, before this Synod was on anyone’s radar. He was explaining some of the challenges in his diocese.

He noted that there was strong pressure to allow men to keep their wives, or to pick which one they wanted to have relations with. That was also when he affirmed that it was the calling of the Church to convert not just people, but the whole culture.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
In cultures like Africa where polygamy is acceptable, they don’t see it that way.
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Just as Western cultures see little wrong in divorce and remarriage. Both are wrong, and both cultures need to change
Africa and Asia have problems far greater with respect to equality for women than Western Society has where divorced and remarried Catholics are seeking a way to return to full union with the Church.
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Jim
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In each case, the Church is the source of truth, to transform the culture. So that true equality ( not the third world, nor the feminist corruption) triumphs

Likewise with the path to return to full union with Church. Both cultures need to conform themselves to the teachings of the Church.

African and Asia could certainly benefit by practicing the teachings in Mulieris Dignitatem, and the West can equally benefit by putting *Familaris Consortio *into practice.

Would you not agree?

I would say that part of the differences is that the African bishops are not seeking to change the Church’s teachings on equality, in fact, they strongly promote equality: which is why they are perplexed that some European bishops are trying to change the Church’s teachings on marriage.
 
Brendan said:
Just as Western cultures see little wrong in divorce and remarriage. Both are wrong, and both cultures need to change

In each case, the Church is the source of truth, to transform the culture. So that true equality ( not the third world, nor the feminist corruption) triumphs

Likewise with the path to return to full union with Church. Both cultures need to conform themselves to the teachings of the Church.

African and Asia could certainly benefit by practicing the teachings in Mulieris Dignitatem, and the West can equally benefit by putting *Familaris Consortio *into practice.

Would you not agree?

I would say that part of the differences is that the African bishops are not seeking to change the Church’s teachings on equality, in fact, they strongly promote equality: which is why they are perplexed that some European bishops are trying to change the Church’s teachings on marriage.
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I think all of that is a huge stretch. Nice try. There is no way a divorced and remarried Catholic is the same as a bigamist from countries where women are like cattle. The African bishop is trying to convert a culture of men into something less barbaric by using the church as an example. In the west there is free choice on both sides and that is an entirely different dynamic.

All the people who think the Church is going to change doctrine are just trying to be dramatic. It’s not going to happen, what can happen is a change in Annulment practice. People are not waiting around waiting for the church to change its rules so they can change their spouses like they do their cars, and still go to communion and confession when they want.
 
Phil502 said:
I think all of that is a huge stretch. Nice try. There is no way a divorced and remarried Catholic is the same as a bigamist from countries where women are like cattle. The African bishop is trying to convert a culture of men into something less barbaric by using the church as an example. In the west there is free choice on both sides and that is an entirely different dynamic.

All the people who think the Church is going to change doctrine are just trying to be dramatic. It’s not going to happen, what can happen is a change in Annulment practice. People are not waiting around waiting for the church to change its rules so they can change their spouses like they do their cars, and still go to communion and confession when they want.
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The “dynamic” doesn’t matter as far as the issue of communion is concerned. The two situations are the same in that in both cases the person cannot receive communion for exactly the same reason. And, as Card Napier and others are saying, the arguments used to try to justify remarriage would also justify polygamy (because they are essentially the same thing).
 
Polygamy was the norm in places when the Church was nascent, yet, in 100 generations, it never saw fit to adjust to the “cultural reality.”

If it hasn’t happened since then, it won’t happen now, whether the sin is serial or parallel.

The Church is salt, in the words of our LORD. Salt chemically changes what it is added to; it does not spoil with it.

ICXC NIKA.
 
JimR-OCDS said:
Africa and Asia have problems far greater with respect to equality for women than Western Society has where divorced and remarried Catholics are seeking a way to return to full union with the Church.

Jim
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HI Jim,
While I respect your concerns for the women of Africa and Asia, I’m not so sure that westerners are in a positon to argue being more advanced in this area, given the extent to which women are encouraged to kill their children in order to be competitive with men in the labor market.
When equal opportunity comes at the cost of aborting your children, equality seems a bit elusive.
 
Phil502 said:
All the people who think the Church is going to change doctrine are just trying to be dramatic. It’s not going to happen, what can happen is a change in Annulment practice. People are not waiting around waiting for the church to change its rules so they can change their spouses like they do their cars, and still go to communion and confession when they want.
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I agree, the Church is not going to change its doctrine on the indissolubility of marriage, she cannot. And pastoral practice that would contradict Church doctrine would be effectively to say, “Well the Church teaches X, but we live in a complicated world so we’re going to effectively ignore X and do Y”.

As for the changing of annulment practice, yes there could be administrative changes to the process to ensure that those whose original marriage wasn’t valid at the time they got married do not wait longer than they need to for an annulment. What the process cannot do is make it easier to break the bonds of marriage. If a marriage was valid at the time then that marriage is still valid, regardless of whatever changes are made to the administrative process.
 
McCall1981 said:
Very strong words from Cardinal Brandmuller’s recent interview:

Can the Church deal with the topic of marriage in a pastoral manner that is different from the continual teaching of the Church? Can the Church at all change the teaching itself without falling herself into heresy?

It is evident that the pastoral practice of the Church cannot stand in opposition to the binding doctrine nor simply ignore it. In the same manner, an architect could perhaps build a most beautiful bridge. However, if he does not pay attention to the laws of structural engineering, he risks the collapse of his construction. In the same manner, every pastoral practice has to follow the Word of God if it does not want to fail. A change of the teaching, of the dogma, is unthinkable. Who nevertheless consciously does it, or insistently demands it, is a heretic – even if he wears the Roman Purple.
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This issue is now evolving. Strong words, indeed, for two high-ranking cardinals to speak the words heresy and heretic.
 
Brendan_64 said:
What the process cannot do is make it easier to break the bonds of marriage.
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What the process cannot do is break the bonds of marriage, full stop. A valid marriage either exists, or it doesn’t. The process is not to break the bonds, but to ascertain that they do or do not (validly) exist in the first place.

If a process is put in place to “break” the bonds, then we can be very worried indeed about the direction of the Church. That would not be a disciplinary change but a doctrinal rupture, which cannot happen.
 
OraLabora said:
What the process cannot do is break the bonds of marriage, full stop. A valid marriage either exists, or it doesn’t. The process is not to break the bonds, but to ascertain that they do or do not (validly) exist in the first place.

If a process is put in place to “break” the bonds, then we can be very worried indeed about the direction of the Church. That would not be a disciplinary change but a doctrinal rupture, which cannot happen.
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Very true.
 
jeannetherese said:
HI Jim,
While I respect your concerns for the women of Africa and Asia, I’m not so sure that westerners are in a positon to argue being more advanced in this area, given the extent to which women are encouraged to kill their children in order to be competitive with men in the labor market.
When equal opportunity comes at the cost of aborting your children, equality seems a bit elusive.
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So the abortions are from women hoping to be CEO of Proctor and Gamble? It’s not just ladies who like sexual freedoms but not the consequences?
 
Phil502 said:
So the abortions are from women hoping to be CEO of Proctor and Gamble? It’s not just ladies who like sexual freedoms but not the consequences?
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Hi Phil,
Labor markets run the spectrum from the underground economy to the boardroom.
I’d be happy to answer additional questions via PM to avoid taking the thread off track from its initial purpose.

May God bless you.
jt
 
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