Fla.'s 'Father Oprah' joins Episcopal Church

[Joya]

Your plan is very noble indeed. In a nutshell, you’re saying that you are going to be a missionary to Catholics. We need that. It’s very consistent with what our holy father Francis wanted our own community to do. During our early years, we did send many missionaries to foreign soil, but most of our efforst then and today focussed on converting Catholics.

Another religious tradition that has a very similar mission, but with a much more scholarly approach, is the Dominican tradition. They are experts in apologetics. You may want to look at some of their work and their sites on the web.

To become an apologist one must be very well trained in the faith of the Church. This can be done in a formal and informal way. The formal way is to attend graduate school in theology and get an STD or PhD (Doctorate in Theology). The particular branch of theology that deals in apologetics is called Systematic Theology. Most of us who studied theology at that level got a smattering of it in several courses. But there are degree with majors in that area. I don’t dabble too much in it, because it’s not may major area of study. My area was Mystical Theology.

The informal way to learn apologetics is through reading. The most important and fullest document that you will ever read is the section in the CCC on the Creed. It lays out all of the beliefs of the Catholic Church. If you have a copy of the CCC with the footnotes and references it will show you exactly what documents, scriptural citations and citations from the Fathers are used to support the interpretation of the Creed. If you read the section on the Creed and the sources, you are as good to go as you will need for this missionary endeavor. If you want to teach Apologetics at a higher level, then you will need two things: a doctorate and the license from the Church to teach as a Catholic theologian.

Not every Catholic who teaches apologetics or teaches theology is a Catholic theologian. That title is one that is granted by the Church. One cannot call himself or herself a Catholic theologian without Church approval. But a Catholic can be an apologist. A good Catholic should be able to teach basic apologetics.

I hope this helps.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

You are so smart! I love your posts!

 

[ron77nyc]

No one forced Fr. Cutie to become a priest and no one forced him to promise celibacy. Celibacy comes with the call to the priesthood. It’s a package. You can’t take one without the other. This was not a surprise to him. We have to think about this situation from the other side of the coin.

While it is true that the discipline of celibacy is only within the Latin Rite Church, it is also true that it is a gift to the Church. Those of us who have been called to either the religious life or the priesthood have been given a very special gift. We have been given an opportunity to share our life and death with Jesus in an intimate relationship of love. Celibacy is not a burden…

In discussing celibacy, we need to remember God’s generosity and the Church’s desire to help those of us who are celibate remain close to God and his people. It’s not an unbearable situation as some people try to paint it. It becomes unbearable if one is not called to the priesthood or the religious life or if one is called but answers with a divided heart.

Let’s look at this from a more spiritual perspective and we will see the great gift and grace that it is.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

My comments are directed at the double standard of discipline that the Church has. I see some irregular logic being played out and those who question it are labeled anti-Catholic.
If you want straight men to be celibate then you also have to demand the same from homosexuals. Bishops who are immoral or liars should be laicized also.

There is a shortage of priests. 150,000 Catholic priests left to get married while married men from Protestant denominations are welcomed to the priesthood.

 

[JReducation]

My comments are directed at the double standard of discipline that the Church has. I see some irregular logic being played out and those who question it are labeled anti-Catholic.
If you want straight men to be celibate then you also have to demand the same from homosexuals. **Bishops who are immoral or liars should be laicized also. **
There is a shortage of priests. 150,000 Catholic priests left to get married while married men from Protestant denominations are welcomed to the priesthood.

The bold is mine. This is a sad situation that you describe and it does happen. However, it is not a double standard. In the first place, the Church does not have the authority to dismiss a man from the clerical state because he is a sinner. She can only dismiss a man from the clerical state if he violates canon law.

A deacon, priest or bishop who attempts marriage is in violation of canon law. Therefore, such a person can be dismissed from the clerical state. The logic of the dismissal is not to punish the person, but it is an act of mercy on the part of the Church. By dismissing someone from the clerical state, that person rejoins the ranks of the faithful, while remaining a priest forever.

This allows the person to receive the sacraments and settle his marriage by marrying in the Church. The Church does this for the sake of any children born to that marriage. She wants those children to be raised Catholic and have the full benefits of the Catholic faith. Many of the priests who leave without a dispensation often leave the Church and do not raise their children Catholic. That’s the reason for the dismissal from the clerical state.

A person who is a liar or having gay sex, will not benefit from the dismissal. That person won’t benefit from a Catholic marriage. As to receiving the other sacraments, any sinner who goes to confession, is contrite and is absolved can continue to receive the sacraments.

If a person engages in on-going sexual activity and is a public sinner, regardless of gay or straight, that person can be dismissed from the clerical state to minimize the damage to the faithful. However, the process is not as quick as a cleric who attempts a marriage. The reason that it is slower is that Pope Benedict has been said to hope that with some direction from the Holy See this person will change. There are several attempts made to help the person, before the dismissal process can begin.

There was a recent letter on this subject issued by the Holy See. It is on one of the other threads. Unfortunately, I can’t recall the name of the thread. You may be able to find it. It was in a Catholic News thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

The bold is mine. This is a sad situation that you describe and it does happen. However, it is not a double standard. In the first place, the Church does not have the authority to dismiss a man from the clerical state because he is a sinner. She can only dismiss a man from the clerical state if he violates canon law…
There are several attempts made to help the person, before the dismissal process can begin.

There was a recent letter on this subject issued by the Holy See. It is on one of the other threads. Unfortunately, I can’t recall the name of the thread. You may be able to find it. It was in a Catholic News thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Thanks for your explanation. I see your point of view.

 

[bobzills]

The bold is mine. This is a sad situation that you describe and it does happen. However, it is not a double standard. In the first place, the Church does not have the authority to dismiss a man from the clerical state because he is a sinner. She can only dismiss a man from the clerical state if he violates canon law.

A deacon, priest or bishop who attempts marriage is in violation of canon law. Therefore, such a person can be dismissed from the clerical state. The logic of the dismissal is not to punish the person, but it is an act of mercy on the part of the Church. By dismissing someone from the clerical state, that person rejoins the ranks of the faithful, while remaining a priest forever.

This allows the person to receive the sacraments and settle his marriage by marrying in the Church. The Church does this for the sake of any children born to that marriage. She wants those children to be raised Catholic and have the full benefits of the Catholic faith. Many of the priests who leave without a dispensation often leave the Church and do not raise their children Catholic. That’s the reason for the dismissal from the clerical state.

A person who is a liar or having gay sex, will not benefit from the dismissal. That person won’t benefit from a Catholic marriage. As to receiving the other sacraments, any sinner who goes to confession, is contrite and is absolved can continue to receive the sacraments.

If a person engages in on-going sexual activity and is a public sinner, regardless of gay or straight, that person can be dismissed from the clerical state to minimize the damage to the faithful. However, the process is not as quick as a cleric who attempts a marriage. The reason that it is slower is that Pope Benedict has been said to hope that with some direction from the Holy See this person will change. There are several attempts made to help the person, before the dismissal process can begin.

There was a recent letter on this subject issued by the Holy See. It is on one of the other threads. Unfortunately, I can’t recall the name of the thread. You may be able to find it. It was in a Catholic News thread.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

My interpretation of Scripture is that homosexual relations are an abomination. So, according to Scripture, it looks like it iw wrong to penalise a man who wants to get married more than a homosexual bishop or preist.

 

[soflochristmas]

Man claiming to be ex-boyfriend of Alberto Cutié’s wife sues couple, cops

Former Roman Catholic priest Alberto Cutié married Ruhama Buni Canellis on Tuesday. C.M. GUERRERO / EL NUEVO HERALD FILE
Photo BY JAWEED KALEEM
jkaleem@MiamiHerald.com
A man who says he is the ex-boyfriend of Ruhama Buni Canellis, the newlywed wife of former priest Alberto Cutié, is suing the couple and the Biscayne Park Police Department.

miamiherald.com/459/story/1103587.html

 

[soflochristmas]

No but he was forced to remain celibate. That’s why he confided in an Episcopalian bishop rather than his own Catholic bishop. He knew what the Catholic bishop’s next move would be so he countermoved to avoid being captured.

When was he forced to remain celibate? I thought he was having sex with his newlywed bride.

 

[GEddie]

When was he forced to remain celibate? I thought he was having sex with his newlywed bride.

Ron77 is giving the Church a hard time, claiming that priests are “forced to” be celibate. This is equivalent to saying that a married person is “forced” to remain monogamous.

The Church is going to have this controversy for a long time, either until She knuckles under to world pressure, or the sexual revolution goes away (hopefully the 2nd).

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

Ron77 is giving the Church a hard time, claiming that priests are “forced to” be celibate. This is equivalent to saying that a married person is “forced” to remain monogamous.

The Church is going to have this controversy for a long time, either until She knuckles under to world pressure, or the sexual revolution goes away (hopefully the 2nd).

I say with full confidence that Holy Mother Church will*** never, ever*** " knuckle under to world pressure"…nor will the “revolution of blatant sin go away”…that is, until the great chastisement comes, and brings about a** “new springtime”** in the Church. These are just the** birth-pangs**, my friends. God’s justice is coming…:coffeeread:Can you not read the “signs of the times”?

 

[JReducation]

My interpretation of Scripture is that homosexual relations are an abomination. So, according to Scripture, it looks like it iw wrong to penalise a man who wants to get married more than a homosexual bishop or preist.

He is not being penalized for wanting to get married. He’s is being dismissed from the clerical state because he has violated canon law. Canon law is very clear, only Peter can give a deacon or a priest permission to marry.

Regardless of how we interpret scripture’s statements regarding homosexuality, the Church’s interpretation always stands as the final authority. The Church does not interpret it as an abomination. The Church does not include it in canon law, because it is not a canonical offense.

On the other hand, if a cleric were engaged in a homosexual relation and it were a cause of scandal, there are provisions in canon law to deal with it. But the canons are clear that in those cases dismissal from the clerical state is the final option and that it is an option left only tot he Holy Father.

Bob, we have to be careful not to allow our understanding of scripture to obscure the Church’s interpretation and application in her laws. In the end, it’s the voice of the Church that has the final authority in these matters. Remember, only Peter can bind and unbind, and only Peter can interpret scripture. All other interpretations are subject to his approval.

Let us always remain in communion with the Holy See and we will be safe from commiting injustice and be generous in mercy.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

Ron77 is giving the Church a hard time, claiming that priests are “forced to” be celibate. This is equivalent to saying that a married person is “forced” to remain monogamous.

The Church is going to have this controversy for a long time, either until She knuckles under to world pressure, or the sexual revolution goes away (hopefully the 2nd).

If marriage between a man and a woman is part of the sexual revolution then my parents and grandparents were way ahead of their time.

Is it resistance to pressure or resistance to change?

 

[ron77nyc]

When was he forced to remain celibate? I thought he was having sex with his newlywed bride.

If he wanted to remain a Catholic priest he would have to remain celibate.
He was doing with a woman what gay priests do to boys but he was a celebrity so he was a better catch for the papparazi.

 

[JReducation]

If marriage between a man and a woman is part of the sexual revolution then my parents and grandparents were way ahead of their time.

Is it resistance to pressure or resistance to change?

Ron, what do you have at steak here? Am I correct in interpreting that you challenge the Church’s authority to require celibacy for secular men who want to be clerics in the Latin Rite?

Are you completely opposed to mandatory celibacy? If so, what do we do with religious life? If you take celibacy away, religious life ceases to exist. Religious life is built upon community life and community life is built on celibacy as the means to the perfection of charity.

I guess my point is that you seem intent on condemning the Church for requiring celibacy. But I am not sure if you are speaking solely about secular men who may want to enter the priesthood or about religious men who want to enter the priesthood as well.

I’m a little confused in these areas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[bobzills]

The Church does not interpret it as an abomination.

Where is this officially and infallibly written down by the Magisterium that the Roman Cathoilic Church does not view homosexual relations as an abomination? Or is this just your private interpretation? You are not trying to minimise the abominable and perverted sin of homosexual relations, are you? The Word of God says it is an abomination:
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” (Lv. 18:22)

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Lv. 20:13)

 

[bobzills]

Ron, what do you have at steak here? Am I correct in interpreting that you challenge the Church’s authority to require celibacy for secular men who want to be clerics in the Latin Rite?

Are you completely opposed to mandatory celibacy? If so, what do we do with religious life? If you take celibacy away, religious life ceases to exist. Religious life is built upon community life and community life is built on celibacy as the means to the perfection of charity.

I guess my point is that you seem intent on condemning the Church for requiring celibacy. But I am not sure if you are speaking solely about secular men who may want to enter the priesthood or about religious men who want to enter the priesthood as well.

I’m a little confused in these areas.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I would hope that there would be a place for married priests in the Roman Catholic Church. If they can make a place for homosexual priests, then I would say that the time has come to allow heterosexual married priests.

 

[GEddie]

If marriage between a man and a woman is part of the sexual revolution then my parents and grandparents were way ahead of their time.

Is it resistance to pressure or resistance to change?

Resistance to outside pressure for change. The world, 5/6 of which is not Catholic, should not be dictating what the Church what it must or must not change.

The sexual revolution is not about marriage. It is about the idea that everybody, never mind their situation, should be “sexually fulfilled.” Celibacy has been around for approximately a millennium, yet it was not controversial until the late 1900s, when the world got the idea that is was somehow “weird” for a handful of men to forgo sexual relationships.

 

[GEddie]

Where is this officially and infallibly written down by the Magisterium that the Roman Cathoilic Church does not view homosexual relations as an abomination? Or is this just your private interpretation? You are not trying to minimise the abominable and perverted sin of homosexual relations, are you? The Word of God says it is an abomination:
“Thou shalt not lie with mankind, as with womankind: it is abomination.” (Lv. 18:22)

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” (Lv. 20:13)

Be careful.

Elsewhere in Lv, you have the people commanded to kill disobedient children, and rubrics for selling of human beings into slavery. That something is in the Bible does not make it the will of God for all time.

 

[bobzills]

Be careful.

Elsewhere in Lv, you have the people commanded to kill disobedient children, and rubrics for selling of human beings into slavery. That something is in the Bible does not make it the will of God for all time.

I take the opposite view that the one who is minimising the abominable and perverted sin mentioned here is the one who needs to be careful.
You can also take out your Bible and read 1 Cor 6: 9-11.

 

[pmoo]

I heard on the news a while ago that Father Cutie and his friend have married. To some this may seem bad, but the way I look at it, it seems like it might be better to marry and take a wife, rather than to do what the Pope (Alexander VI) has done and to take and live with an unmarried mistress and have four children? After all, doesnt the Bible say it is better to marry than to burn? I Cor 7-9?
As far as the Pope blocking some Eastern rite priests from marrying, I suspect that this is one of those disciplinary issues that the Eastern Orthodox would not want to be imposed upon them by the Roman Pope and hence this would only serve to increase their reluctance to go along with any reunion.

I believe his girlfriend/fiancee is twice-divorced, so regardless of his priesthood vows and obligations, she is not free to marry unless she has had both marriages annulled. From a Protestant standpoint, it is better for him to marry his lover. However, from a Catholic standpoint, he’s just complicated things more. He may always be a priest, but he has traveled very far from Catholicism

 

[GEddie]

I would hope that there would be a place for married priests in the Roman Catholic Church. If they can make a place for homosexual priests, then I would say that the time has come to allow heterosexual married priests.

If the Church made a specific allowance for homosexuals in the priesthood, I would agree with you, but it has not. At least before 2002, the concern was, not the candidate’s sexual preference, but whether they could live celibacy. If a gay man can do so, then he can serve in the priesthood, just as a straight man can.

Celibacy is consenting “not to get married,” in order to give oneself to the Church; and not “to not commit sexual sin,” which no one should be doing anyhow. (Of course, people do that every day, which is one reason we have the Sacrament of Penance, and the other life has Purgatory.) Therefore, a priest entering a marriage violates the canons, while sexual sin does not. But the Church has not made a loophole for gay behavior in the clergy.