Fla.'s 'Father Oprah' joins Episcopal Church

[Augie1530]

what about your pedephile priests and the bishops and archbishops that “protect” them from the law by transfering them to a new parish out of the diocese or state ? what about all the popes in the middle ages who have had several illigitimate children ? or pregnant nuns YES this did happen and same with parish priests having children as well and dont forget the spanish inquisition so can you honestly say the RRC is God’s HOLY and True Church ? Perhaps Martin Luther was correct in showing the Pope ( LEO X) the sins and hiprocracy of the RCC of his day and age and for that matter the present church as well MIA CULPA MIA CULPA MIA MAXIMA CULPA . One other thing I have seen since I joined this site is the Arogant pride and total hatred and outright rudeness of the members toward any Protestant Church which is directly and purposefully pointed toward ANGLICANS/EPISCOPAL and LUTHERAN churches . In your totasl ignorance of apostolic successsion you have forgotten that 3 of the gernam electors who were followers of Luther were 2 BISHOPS and 1 Archbishop who later properly ordained other LUTHERAN PASTORS and made LUTHERAN ORDINATIONS VALID

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

What about Judas? Did his sins invalidate the authority of the remaining apostles? Wait, Catholic clergy have sinned??? SHOCK!

 

[Liraco]

what about your pedephile priests and the bishops and archbishops that “protect” them from the law by transfering them to a new parish out of the diocese or state ? what about all the popes in the middle ages who have had several illigitimate children ? or pregnant nuns YES this did happen and same with parish priests having children as well and dont forget the spanish inquisition so can you honestly say the RRC is God’s HOLY and True Church ? Perhaps Martin Luther was correct in showing the Pope ( LEO X) the sins and hiprocracy of the RCC of his day and age and for that matter the present church as well MIA CULPA MIA CULPA MIA MAXIMA CULPA . One other thing I have seen since I joined this site is the Arogant pride and total hatred and outright rudeness of the members toward any Protestant Church which is directly and purposefully pointed toward ANGLICANS/EPISCOPAL and LUTHERAN churches . In your totasl ignorance of apostolic successsion you have forgotten that 3 of the gernam electors who were followers of Luther were 2 BISHOPS and 1 Archbishop who later properly ordained other LUTHERAN PASTORS and made LUTHERAN ORDINATIONS VALID

Don’t judge the effectiveness of medicine by those who abstain from it but by those who take it.

Yes there’s been wrong and sinful people in the church. God’s Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church, which you now seem to mock, was made for sinners. Jesus came for the “sick”, the healthy need not healing.

I have to ask what your issue is with regards to the subject, or are you merely answering to someone else?

If your beef is with people being angry that he’s joining a different Church, it’s not “hatred” for protestants or a matter pride, it’s a matter of TRUTH. Fr. Cutie’s not been honest and has continued in his dishonesty throughout this whole “circus” of dissing his former Church while finding a new one that fits him. The point of all this is the scandal he’s caused that could lead many astray. So we pray that he see his errors but we don’t hate him, though we certainly disapprove of his recent actions.

 

[DonLeon]

Well I am a Catholic so that is not a lie. I am being very honest about what I believe. I really don’t know any Catholics who accept everything the Church teaches but I’m sure there are many. I just don’t know any except for those I’ve seen on CAF. If you want to be one of the Catholic police you should start with yourself then branch out to those around you and see if they accept all the Church teaches.

You can say you know me because I am a Catholic that accepts and believes everything that the CC teaches! I am NOT a cafeteria Catholic. Everything that the CC teaches is exactly what Jesus and His apostles taught and the CC teaches with Jesus’ s authority. All those that say the CC comrs up with some new dogma every day know not what they are talking about. The church clarifies and explains what has been taught through the ages, and since it has been given the authority it does so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The CC is the only one that can do so.

 

[Gabriella_San_S]

There is a point where you have to move on or something can become such a preocupation that you do spiritual and psychological harm to yourself and the community. Our own Holy Father St. Francis said this to our first brothers. After charitable fraternal correction had been given, the brothers and sisters were to let the sinner go and move on. They were never to make a condemnatory remark about the sinner, but should limit themselves to*** preach about penance and those who do not do penance.***

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

Respectfully, dear Brother in Christ,
I believe *** that was Shin’s intention in his remarks, and he quotes the great Saints and Doctors of the Church on this very matter! How can you not understand this? You are surely a learned teacher yourself, yet you don’t acknowledge that there is a profound need for continual *** fraternal correction , yes, by the good Archbishop, and by all men and woman of good will, in the days to come, as we experience the “fall-out” from the*** spiritual and psychological harm that Fr.Cutie*** has brought upon believers and unbelievers alike-and continues to do so by his unrepentance. You would do all of us a great service to encourage this!
In charity and peace, Gabriella

 

[JReducation]

Respectfully, dear Brother in Christ,
I believe *** that was ***Shin’s intention in his remarks, and he quotes the great Saints and Doctors of the Church on this very matter! How can you not understand this?

The reason I said that I was not sure where this was going was because I read the citations, but I didn’t see a concluding statement. I was unsure if he was agreeing with the bishop or disagreeing.

You are surely a learned teacher yourself, yet you don’t acknowledge that there is a profound need for continual *** fraternal correction , yes, by the good Archbishop, and by all men and woman of good will***,

On the contrary, I do believe in fraternal correction. However, the manner of correction that many posters on CAF want is inconsistent with the mission of the Church and the authority of the bishops or religious superiors, the latter only applies to religious orders.

The bishop did say in his letter that he gave Fr. Cutie the opportunity to take a leave of absence and to go away to pray and think. This is fraternal correction. The truest meaning of fraternal correction is redirection. Archbishop Favalora offered Fr. Cutie the opportunity for redirection. Father never got back to the Archbishop. That’s not the Archbishop’s fault. Father is an adult. He knows that he had an obligation to get back to the Archbishop and report his status and his thoughts. He failed to do this. The Archbishop found out about his admission to the Episcopal communion along with the rest of us, through the media.

The Archbishop also said that he could have imposed other sanctions on Fr. Cutie, but did not want to cause a media scandal. He trusted Fr. Cutie’s discretion and honesty. There was no reason not to trust him, since Fr. Cutie admitted the whole truth to the Archbishop. When someone comes to you and says that they admit they are gulty of something, you try to help them get out of the situation. Usually, you are more helpful that way than being punitive. This was the Archbishop’s hope. Father did not fulfill his part.

As a result of not fulfilling his part, he has excommunicated hmself and may lose his clerical state. Although he will always be a validly ordained priest. The retraction of the clerical state does not take away the ontological change of Holy Orders.

This level of action is not fraternal correction. These are penalties for those who do not respond to fraternal correction. There is a difference between correction and penalties. Think of a good parent. A good parent guides and corrects his children. He punishes only if the child fails to respond to redirection (correction). Even good parents have a limit as to how much punishment they can dish out. In addition, there is the fact that in dealing with adults, you can’t force an adult to comply, even by imposing penalties, just look at our prisons. People comply with corrections or respond to penalties when they are ready to do so.

You are right, there will be fallout. I can tell you exactly how it’s going to come too.

1. Those who want to push the anti-celibacy agenda will use this.
2. Those whose faith was stirred by Fr. Cutie, rather than by the truth that he taught, will either be confused, hurt or angry at the Church for not condoning Father’s actions.
3. Those who do not understand that the actions and statement of the Archbishop are part of the Church’s recovery and approach to helping priests recover from a sinful situation will cry out for a lynching.
4. Those who do not understand that the Church and many dioceses have tightened on their supervision of priests will argue that pedoephile priests were not punished and a sexually healthy man is being punished. They do not see that the actions taken in Fr. Cutie’s case is part of the program of greater supervision and greater assistance to priests in trouble.
5. Those who do not understand the difference between peodophilia and promiscuity will throw them into the same basket and question the Church’s credibility. They do not belong in the same basket. Peodophilia is a mental illness, Promiscuity is not.
6. The media will go looking for every opportunity to attack the Church’s moral positions based on the argument that the Church’s policy on celibacy does not keep up with the times.
7. There will be accusations that the Catholic Church has something against married priests. Nothing can be further from the truth. In all of the Eastern Rites, married men can be ordained priests as long as they are not religious.

In the Western/Latin Rite married men can be ordained deacons and some can be ordained priests. It is up to the bishop to make the judgement call based on law. The Church protects the sanctity of marriage and the sacredness of the bond.

Sharing all of this accurate information with those who do not know this, is part of fraternal correction.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

Yes, sir, there are many others like yourself…“cafeteria” catholics don’t lie, they are very persistent and bold in their errors -that’s the difference.
You could always go the way of Fr.Cutie, and attend an ecclesial community that suits all of your whims.
But it would be so much more admirable to "seek the truth and pursue it"in the True Church!
(I’m praying you choose that one

“Cafeteria Catholic” is another one of those derrogatory terms but thanks for praying for me anyway.

 

[JReducation]

Here is the problem right here. Father Cutie goes out and makes a mess of his life and the mud fight begins. This is a perfect example of the social dimension of sin, all sin, not just sins against celibacy and chastity. Sin divides and the worst part is that we often fail to see that it is impacting on our lives and on the way we deal with each other.

We probably would not be having this conversation if the priest involved were not an international television celebrity. He is not the first priest in the history of the Church who has left the Church for an assortment of reasons and will not be the last. This is something that we have to put into perspective. There is too much drama around this case.

Some people are letting the drama affect the way that they speak to each other or about each other. We have to get that under control. We cannot control Fr. Cutie’s actions and make choices for him. But we can control how we respond to the feelings that Father’s actions have aroused in us. We certainly can control how we respond to each other.

When our holy father Francis was kneeling in prayer at San Damiano’s, he heard a voice from the crucifix that said, “Francis, go rebuild my house that is falling into ruins.” Christ’s command to Francis was not for that time and that person alone. It is a command for all times and all peoples. We must rebuild Christ’s house. That begins by rebuilding ourselves first.

There is no merit in debating Fr. Cutie’s irregular situation and losing our inner peace in doing so. We must recover our inner peace. I believe that Archbishop Favalora was right when he told the people of the Archdiocese of Miami that this conversation is over. There has to be a point where we go back to the work of rebuilding our souls and recovering our inner silence. Yes, we have to denounce sin when we see it; but never perseverate on it to the point that we respond without charity to our neighbor. The absence of charity destroys inner silence. The absence of silence obscures the voice of God within the soul. Without the voice of God, we are left to our fallen human nature for guidance. This is a dangerous trade-off.

Let us remember that this thread is for the purpose of discussing and learning, not for the purpose of fighting and generating anger.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

You can say you know me because I am a Catholic that accepts and believes everything that the CC teaches! I am NOT a cafeteria Catholic. Everything that the CC teaches is exactly what Jesus and His apostles taught and the CC teaches with Jesus’ s authority. All those that say the CC comrs up with some new dogma every day know not what they are talking about. The church clarifies and explains what has been taught through the ages, and since it has been given the authority it does so under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. The CC is the only one that can do so.

Jesus didn’t call anyone a cafeteria catholic. He said what He had to say and then He said: “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” He did not look down on people who were not able to comprehend His message. He didn’t get all ruffled when people walked away. The only people who got Him angry were the Pharisees because they thought they were right about everything. He had all power and authority in heaven and on earth and He never used it to elevate Himself above any human.

 

[JReducation]

Jesus didn’t call anyone a cafeteria catholic. He said what He had to say and then He said: “He who has ears to hear, let him hear!” He did not look down on people who were not able to comprehend His message. He didn’t get all ruffled when people walked away. The only people who got Him angry were the Pharisees because they thought they were right about everything. So go on be very proud of yourself for not being a cafeteria catholic. You are definitely superior.

Do you sin? Are you saved by grace?

8 For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; 9 not as a result of works, so that no one may boast.

By the way, the early christians and many more who followed for centuries did not have a bible or a catechism. They were not required to know what we know today to belong to the church. Do you think they were cafeteria catholics?

Actually, we are saved by faith and works. St. James makes that very clear. The citation from St. Paul is not meant to leave out the need for works in salvation. He was speaking to a group that did not understand the holistic concept of faith. Paul himself makes this statement in another letter when he speaks about faith, hope and love. He reminds the Corinthians that the greatest of these is love, because the Corinthians went to the other extreme. They held that if they believed in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they were all set. Each letter has an audience, a situation and a message.

Let’s not take them out of context, because that can be dangerous. Let’s not forget that we must be people of peace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

Actually, we are saved by faith and works. St. James makes that very clear. The citation from St. Paul is not meant to leave out the need for works in salvation. He was speaking to a group that did not understand the holistic concept of faith. Paul himself makes this statement in another letter when he speaks about faith, hope and love. He reminds the Corinthians that the greatest of these is love, because the Corinthians went to the other extreme. They held that if they believed in Jesus as their Lord and Savior, they were all set. Each letter has an audience, a situation and a message.

Let’s not take them out of context, because that can be dangerous. Let’s not forget that we must be people of peace.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

I never said faith alone but faith alone is possible.
If someone repents and gets baptized immediately before dying, that person is saved by faith and not works.

 

[DeoSalvatoreMeo]

Well, we know that Jesus also rebuked Peter and other disciples and overturned the tables of the moneychangers. So, to say that “only the Pharisees got Him angry” is an inaccurate statement.

Jesus didn’t use the term “Cafeteria Catholics”, but he didn’t use the term “Catholics” either… So, your argument has no point.

Now let us look to our leaders for a response to the Cafeteria Catholic’s comments:

“It is sometimes claimed”, he said, “that dissent from the magisterium is totally compatible with being a ‘good Catholic,’ and poses no obstacle to the reception of the Sacraments. This is a grave error that challenges the teaching of the Bishops in the United States and elsewhere. " - Pope John Paul II

“Dear brothers and sisters”, he said, “how necessary it is today at the dawn of the third millennium for the entire Catholic community to proclaim, teach and witness to the entire truth of Catholic faith, doctrine and morals in a unanimous and harmonious manner!” - Pope Benedict XVI

In other words, Cafeteria Catholics create disharmony and disunity!

 

[JReducation]

I never said faith alone but faith alone is possible.
If someone repents and gets baptized immediately before dying, that person is saved by faith and not works.

Theologically that is inaccurate. The person who is baptized and dies after, such as baby or even an adult, is still saved by faith and works. As part of the Mystical Body he/she shares in the faith and works of the Body. This is the doctrine on the communion of saints.

On another note, what does all of this have to do with the topic of this thread? Did everyone get tired of Fr. Albert?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

Theologically that is inaccurate. The person who is baptized and dies after, such as baby or even an adult, is still saved by faith and works. As part of the Mystical Body he/she shares in the faith and works of the Body. This is the doctrine on the communion of saints.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

What good deeds does a person have if he lived a life of sin and repents before receiving a lethal injection?

 

[ron77nyc]

Well, we know that Jesus also rebuked Peter and other disciples and overturned the tables of the moneychangers. So, to say that “only the Pharisees got Him angry” is an inaccurate statement.

OK so I was not 100% accurate. What do you think about gambling in the church such as raffles and church bazaars to raise money? I think it’s similar to the money changers.

Jesus didn’t use the term “Cafeteria Catholics”, but he didn’t use the term “Catholics” either… So, your argument has no point.

I have a good point. Much of what the Church teaches today was not taught then so were they Catholics? Would they be accepted in the Church today or would they be called cafeteria catholics?

 

[JReducation]

What good deeds does a person have if he lived a life of sin and repents before receiving a lethal injection?

This is a good question. The moment the person repents, he is restored to sanctifying grace. Therefore, he is in communion with the Mystical Body. Like the child who died after baptism, this person also shares in the faith and works of the Mystical Body.

All of this comes under the dogma of the communion of saints. We are not saved in isolation. We are saved in communion with the entire body.

The grace of the body, the works of the body, the faith of the body is shared by all its members.

Think of this example. Actually, it’s not an example. It’s a fact. The Carhusians and the Camaldolese religious deliberately avoid all contact with the laity to avoid contamination. They also forbid those monks who are priests to celebrate the sacraments for the laity, even to hear their confessions. The monks who are priests celebrate mass alone, they never baptize, marry, hear confessions or anoint the sick. There is usually one priest who does this for the lay people who are at the retreat house attached to the monastery.

They do not engage in any ministry. The apostolate is forbidden by their rule. Their ministry is silence and prayer. The only work that they do is what is needed to support themselves. That’s usually some farming or an interior factory within the abbey.

The rule says that they may not see each other or spend time together, except on Sundays for a few hours. They may never see the biological families again after they make solemn vows.

As you can see, there are no great works going on here. Yet, they produce great work. How so? Their lives are part of the life of the Mystical Body. They share in the work of the body.

Thus the Church approves their way of life as one of work and faith, because the Church provides the work.

This is the wonderful mystery of our communion with each other. Isn’t it beautiful?

The Church applies the same principle to the person who is about to die, after being convicted. Case in point, Dismas on the cross, he is incorporated into the saving work of Christ through his communion with Christ’s mystical body.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[Liraco]

What good deeds does a person have if he lived a life of sin and repents before receiving a lethal injection?

Loving God, and that’s all you need.

If a sinful person truly and completely were to repent for all his sins even at the last moments of his life out of LOVE for God and not fear of Hell, then you can bet he’ll be welcome by God with open arms.

Plus, if a person can truly convert from a life of sin and ask for forgiveness out of love, then that person wasn’t all bad despite their life of sin.

God is looking for the stray sheep, and rejoices when they’re found. We are ALL sinners, and He came for us.

 

[JReducation]

OK so I was not 100% accurate. What do you think about gambling in the church such as raffles and church bazaars to raise money? I think it’s similar to the money changers.

We must remember that the money changers exploited the people who went to the synogogue to pray. These were usually the working class and the poor people. The belief of the exegetes is that there is more to this story than money changers in a synagogue.

Does everyone know what a money changer was?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

 

[ron77nyc]

We must remember that the money changers exploited the people who went to the synogogue to pray. These were usually the working class and the poor people. The belief of the exegetes is that there is more to this story than money changers in a synagogue.

Does everyone know what a money changer was?

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

But do you think it’s OK to use gambling to raise money for the Church?

 

[ron77nyc]

What good deeds does a person have if he lived a life of sin and repents before receiving a lethal injection?

This is a good question. The moment the person repents, he is restored to sanctifying grace. Therefore, he is in communion with the Mystical Body. Like the child who died after baptism, this person also shares in the faith and works of the Mystical Body.

All of this comes under the dogma of the communion of saints. We are not saved in isolation. We are saved in communion with the entire body.

The grace of the body, the works of the body, the faith of the body is shared by all its members.

Think of this example. Actually, it’s not an example. It’s a fact. The Carhusians and the Camaldolese religious deliberately avoid all contact with the laity to avoid contamination. They also forbid those monks who are priests to celebrate the sacraments for the laity, even to hear their confessions. The monks who are priests celebrate mass alone, they never baptize, marry, hear confessions or anoint the sick. There is usually one priest who does this for the lay people who are at the retreat house attached to the monastery.

They do not engage in any ministry. The apostolate is forbidden by their rule. Their ministry is silence and prayer. The only work that they do is what is needed to support themselves. That’s usually some farming or an interior factory within the abbey.

The rule says that they may not see each other or spend time together, except on Sundays for a few hours. They may never see the biological families again after they make solemn vows.

As you can see, there are no great works going on here. Yet, they produce great work. How so? Their lives are part of the life of the Mystical Body. They share in the work of the body.

Thus the Church approves their way of life as one of work and faith, because the Church provides the work.

This is the wonderful mystery of our communion with each other. Isn’t it beautiful?

The Church applies the same principle to the person who is about to die, after being convicted. Case in point, Dismas on the cross, he is incorporated into the saving work of Christ through his communion with Christ’s mystical body.

Fraternally,

Br. JR, OSF

All those you mentioned do good works but the guy who repented before dying did nothing good after he repented. He did not have the opportunity.