Flags and Idolatry

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exnihilo

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One thing that has always bothered me is a flag in church. I imagine like many things this practice varies greatly. But in the South, in what you might be your more conservative churches, it is not unusual to find a US flag. This flag might be found with the ‘Christian’ flag on the other side of the church to give balance, but also to avoid the obvious problem of having the US flag as your only or such a prominent symbol.

It has always bothered me for the symbolism. I know I’m in America. The flag itself has no meaning in the average service, save for national services. The symbol is irrelevant to most worship. And given the current state of affairs I cant believe that God would be very excited about being associated in any way with our government. So what is being conveyed by its presence?

The more I thought about it the more it stopped just bothering me but angering me. The very same people who complain about Catholic practices have no problem having a secular government flag in their church. They dont want a cross. They cant have a statue. But they can have this flag. If a piece of cloth representing a government is good enough for a church why not a statue of a Saint?

What really convinced me that this practice is actually idolatrous is seeing what happened around Independence Day. In a prelude to the service the Star Spangled Banner was played. I think that is bad enough since the song has nothing to do with preparing to worship, but what follows is worse. The entire congregation stops talking (the normal preparation for worship), stands up facing the flag, and many put their hand over their hearts. They remain like this for the entire rather long song. Afterwards they go back to talking.

The idea of worshiping God does not silence people, but honoring the state does. Standing for the flag is good but kneeling for God is not. Crossing yourself is unnecessary because physical demonstrations are of no value but placing your hand over your heart is worthy respect for the state.

If you go into many Baptist (not trying to pick on anyone I just think it is particularly common with them) or non-denominational churches you’ll find a flag, possibly large, and people who seem to hold these grossly inconsistent principles. These folks think nothing of their actions regarding honoring the US flag but recoil in horror at the thought of the same actions for religion.

Are these people worshiping the US flag since by their own beliefs they claim showing devotion to anything physical (at least in church) is not worshiping God? How is this not a great hypocrisy? Can anyone justify this devotion to the flag, in a church?
 
the meaning of the american flag to me means that I have the choice to worship where ever on how ever I wish. And I believe (especially during this time) that we should see the flag and remember those who are giving us the FREEDOM to worship where we want!
 
What is this about not wanting crosses in church? Every Protestant church I’ve ever visited will usually have a cross prominently placed on a wall, in a window pain, or somewhere on the platform.

About flags, I don’t know maybe they just want to be patriotic and show that being loyal to God and being a good citizen are not mutually exclusive to each other.
 
Yes, we worship the flag. The American flag is God, the state flag is Jesus, and the Pledge of Allegiance is the Holy Spirit. With everything going on in the world you’re worried about a flag?
 
exnihilo said:
One thing that has always bothered me is a flag in church. I imagine like many things this practice varies greatly. But in the South, in what you might be your more conservative churches, it is not unusual to find a US flag. This flag might be found with the ‘Christian’ flag on the other side of the church to give balance, but also to avoid the obvious problem of having the US flag as your only or such a prominent symbol.

It has always bothered me for the symbolism. I know I’m in America. The flag itself has no meaning in the average service, save for national services. The symbol is irrelevant to most worship. And given the current state of affairs I cant believe that God would be very excited about being associated in any way with our government. So what is being conveyed by its presence?

The more I thought about it the more it stopped just bothering me but angering me. The very same people who complain about Catholic practices have no problem having a secular government flag in their church. They dont want a cross. They cant have a statue. But they can have this flag. If a piece of cloth representing a government is good enough for a church why not a statue of a Saint?

What really convinced me that this practice is actually idolatrous is seeing what happened around Independence Day. In a prelude to the service the Star Spangled Banner was played. I think that is bad enough since the song has nothing to do with preparing to worship, but what follows is worse. The entire congregation stops talking (the normal preparation for worship), stands up facing the flag, and many put their hand over their hearts. They remain like this for the entire rather long song. Afterwards they go back to talking.

The idea of worshiping God does not silence people, but honoring the state does. Standing for the flag is good but kneeling for God is not. Crossing yourself is unnecessary because physical demonstrations are of no value but placing your hand over your heart is worthy respect for the state.

If you go into many Baptist (not trying to pick on anyone I just think it is particularly common with them) or non-denominational churches you’ll find a flag, possibly large, and people who seem to hold these grossly inconsistent principles. These folks think nothing of their actions regarding honoring the US flag but recoil in horror at the thought of the same actions for religion.

Are these people worshiping the US flag since by their own beliefs they claim showing devotion to anything physical (at least in church) is not worshiping God? How is this not a great hypocrisy? Can anyone justify this devotion to the flag, in a church?
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Let me be one that says a BIG AMEN to your post. THe flg is very evident especially in fundamental Baptist churches~~ I love our country and respect our flag but flaf worshiop does not belong in church!
 
I have absolutely no problem with standing properly and respecting the flag. We’ve never had a flag permanatly installed in our church, however, for things like Vetran’s Day, the scouts or knights process in with it after the priest and they post it on the side of the alter during the Mass.
 
As a military veteran (Air Force), I may have a somewhat different view of the American flag in the church.

Seeing the flag reminds me of the many struggles our forefathers went through to allow me to worship where I want, when I want, how I want.

The flag also reminds me of my many veteran brothers and sisters who are no longer with us, and their ultimate sacrifice that still allows me to worship when, where, and how I want.

There is more to our flag than it being a piece of material that identifies our country.
 
twopekinguys said:
As a military veteran (Air Force), I may have a somewhat different view of the American flag in the church.

Seeing the flag reminds me of the many struggles our forefathers went through to allow me to worship where I want, when I want, how I want.

The flag also reminds me of my many veteran brothers and sisters who are no longer with us, and their ultimate sacrifice that still allows me to worship when, where, and how I want.

There is more to our flag than it being a piece of material that identifies our country.
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I’m retired AF. I agree.

There is a US flag in our sanctuary, behind the pulpit. On July 4, we normal will sing the national/state anthems, after the recessional. We military types will render our salute, many others do the hand on heart. It honors something that flag symbolizes and it is not worship, any more than when I did it, on the parade ground, or at retreat.

As noted, I’ve seen folks, on here with the same sort of error about what constitutes worship or idolatry. Usually they are speaking of a statue of the BVM, some image of a saint, in the church, and don’t recognize what dulia/hyperdulia/latria signify. A salute to the flag, or the presence of a flag is none of these, but it is an honoring, of something abstract, and something concrete.

When I pass near the flag on a Sunday, I render no respect. When I continue on past the altar and the Tabernacle, I do. Difference.

GKC
 
Call the idolatry police! My Church has statues down both sides and, of course, Joseph and Mary on either side of the altar in the front. In the very back of the Church are (gasp!) the papal flag and the American flag on either side of the main doors. Unobtrusive. As long as I don’t genuflect to the papal flag, I guess I’m okay. 😃

Jim Dandy
 
chadair said:
the meaning of the american flag to me means that I have the choice to worship where ever on how ever I wish. And I believe (especially during this time) that we should see the flag and remember those who are giving us the FREEDOM to worship where we want!
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I think we have to be careful how we look on this. God gives us the freedom to worship. At best a government can not interfere. Regarding not interfering with that freedom the case is becoming mixed. The government is prohibiting expressions of religion in ‘public’ settings. At the same time it is claiming more and more areas as being public.
ltwin said:
What is this about not wanting crosses in church? Every Protestant church I’ve ever visited will usually have a cross prominently placed on a wall, in a window pain, or somewhere on the platform.
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A more accurate description would have been no crucifixes. And for many the cross must be smaller and less prominent. For many a large flag can be up front but only a small, almost inconspicuous cross can be up front near the altar.
GKC said:
As noted, I’ve seen folks, on here with the same sort of error about what constitutes worship or idolatry. Usually they are speaking of a statue of the BVM, some image of a saint, in the church, and don’t recognize what dulia/hyperdulia/latria signify. A salute to the flag, or the presence of a flag is none of these, but it is an honoring, of something abstract, and something concrete.
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You are expressing a Catholic understanding. What I find most odd is Protestants who will have none of those things but will have a flag. That seems completely hypocritical.
 
I see nothing wrong with talking about Independence Day and the flag before or after the service, and perhaps talking about it during the sermon itself. Certainly not though interrupting a liturgy or a worship sing-and-praise period. That should be reserved for God. I’m a big believer in nationalism and I love my country, but there’s a place and timing for everything.

I do have one question - if venerating icons and statues is considered idolatry, why isn’t saluting/kissing a flag, genuflecting to a monarch, and singing patriotic songs not considered idolatry? What’s the practical difference? The government and the military in particular has a rather rigid and precise code with regards to handling the flag. Is that idolatry?

If not, then why is venerating an icon idolatry?
 
GKC said:
Thank you. It was easier than one might imagine, in my case. But it’s always good to hear those words.

GKC
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From a nobody with no connection to the military aside admiring it: thank you from me as well!
 
ltwin said:
What is this about not wanting crosses in church? Every Protestant church I’ve ever visited will usually have a cross prominently placed on a wall, in a window pain, or somewhere on the platform. .
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Not here in the deep south.

Many Churches here in the south, especially evangelical Churches, will have no visible cross anywere.

-Tim-
 
stevekehl said:
Yes, we worship the flag. The American flag is God, the state flag is Jesus, and the Pledge of Allegiance is the Holy Spirit. With everything going on in the world you’re worried about a flag?
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I think you missed the point of his post. The emphasis he was making is that many of these Protestant churches are very anti-anything physical related to worship, such as crossing oneself, having statues of Jesus, Mary or the saints, genuflecting before an altar, reverencing the crucifix etc. but are all-too-eager to reverence the flag. He was stating that this is an inconsistency.
 
You are right that the American Flag is not an integral part of the Mass. However, the United States is dedicated to our Mother Mary to watch over our nation through intercession to our Lord Jesus Christ. To keep this dedication in the forefront of our prayers, it is most appropriate to have the American Flag to the left of the Sanctuary (right of the celebrant), with the Church Flag to the right of the Sanctuary. The Boy Scouts, Military, Veterans, Knights of Columbus and Knights of Peter Claver have the American Flag prominent in thier traditions as thier “Duty to God and Duty to Others” with a firm emphasis of patriotism.

Where the American Flag is not a requirement, it reminds us of our blessings as a nation though some keep trying to remove us from our patriotism.
 
CompSciGuy said:
I think you missed the point of his post. The emphasis he was making is that many of these Protestant churches are very anti-anything physical related to worship, such as crossing oneself, having statues of Jesus, Mary or the saints, genuflecting before an altar, reverencing the crucifix etc. but are all-too-eager to reverence the flag. He was stating that this is an inconsistency.
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I noticed that. My comments were for consistency. If it is idolatrous to have the flag in a protestant church, it is possibly similarly idolatrous to have one in a Catholic one. If the logic is “they must be worshipping it” is applied in one place, such a logic can be seen, similarly applied in another place, to that or other items. If all honor is seen as “reverencing” it is also possible to see all honor as worship. All illogically, of course.

GKC
 
There is no flag in the Meeting I attend…the meeting room is for the worship of God…but then we don’t have crosses, statues, icons or pictures either…

I do not salute the flag…I do stand out of respect for those around me if the Pledge is recited…I do not place my hand over my heart.

Patriotism has it’s place…but it has no place in a place of worship IMO…we are members of a different…better Kingdom…one day according to scripture all national lines will be erased as the Kingdom of God will fill the Earth…that Day will only occur if we begin living within that Kingdom now…displays of patriotism or nationalism has no place in worship.
 
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