Flags and Idolatry

[hosemonkey]

It’s not a matter of disliking southern flags - I grew up in Virginia. I have also noticed the same love of the US flag among Southerners that you mention, as well as a certain fondness for the CSA battle flag, which is what I was poking fun at in my comment: be glad that it is the US flag that is displayed in a southern church.

After reading Contarini’s various comments along the way, I think that part of the issue is that, yes, people are not always respectful of God and religion as they should be. For many of the posters the flag is most directly related to military service, which is still respected in our society. Perhaps, though, the challenge is not to respect military service less, but respect God more. Heck, men used to even tip their hats to ladies on the street (a form of salute), if we want to talk about signs of repect.

Well said, d’accord.

 

[Contarini]

I do not confuse the nation with God. Nor did I, in the 20 years I wore the country’s uniform. Do you really think I do not understand nationalism? I understand what the kokutai meant. That’s nationalism

But just because you can identify a more extreme form of it when practiced by another nation does not exclude the possibility that you fail to recognize it when practiced in a more moderate form by your own nation.

I do not confuse the secular “rubrics” of how one respects the symbols of the nation, with any form of dulia/ hyper dulia/, latria.. The flag is not like unto the three sacred symbols of Yamato.Standing for the national anthem, saluting the flag as is considered appropriate, is respect and it is not reverence. As I used to say, when extreme protestants (you know the sort) would accuse me of “worshipping” a crucifix, or an image, you are not plugged into my neural circuits. If I say I am not reverencing the flag, trust me. I am not reverencing the flag. Or what it stands for. And the same is true if I am doing it in a nave, or a field. A combat mass held over the hood of a Jeep, on Okinawa, is worship. Saluting the flag at a raising of the colors in the same spot, is not.

You’re right that I’m not plugged into your neural circuits, or anyone else’s. I am also not plugged into the circuits of those whose actions showing respect and honor were condemned by the early Church and by the Old Testament prophets. I can only judge these things functionally, from the outside. I have no doubt that you make a significant internal distinction between the two forms of showing honor, and I have no interest in judging people’s subjective dispositions. I do, however, think that I can make some observations about how nationalism functions in American society, and that is what I am doing.

As to Hiroshima, you know what I think of what is, in my mind, an intensely immoral willingness to condemn people to death. I hope that I am through with that subject for a year, August now being over. Bought 4 new books on the topic this month. But if you insist, I will engage on the history of avoided deaths. As Frank said, it is difficult to get people to have sympathy for them. They have no pictures, because they did not die in the continued war. Because of the bombs.

First of all, I mentioned Hiroshima in response to the claim that American patriotism doesn’t condemn people to hell. My point was simply that people consign other people to this-worldly “hells” in the name of the nation. I was not explicitly addressing the question of whether Hiroshima was justified. As you know, I do not think it was, because I follow the mainstream of the Christian tradition in rejecting ethical consequentialism. (Also, I think it’s important to note that invasion was not the only alternative. Perhaps failing to topple the Japanese regime would have had even worse consequences than either of the other alternatives. But again, I am not a consequentialist.) But that really wasn’t my point.

You generalize overly much.

That is no doubt true, and I am very glad to have you around to call me on it!

The restraint you have occasionally observed me exercising (uncharacteristically for me) on certain topics is partly due to my great dislike of disagreeing with you on points regarding which I know you feel strongly. Perhaps I ought to feel a similar restraint with regard to all other posters. Which perhaps means that I should take another break from the forum. . . .

God bless,

Edwin

 

[GKC]

But just because you can identify a more extreme form of it when practiced by another nation does not exclude the possibility that you fail to recognize it when practiced in a more moderate form by your own nation.

You’re right that I’m not plugged into your neural circuits, or anyone else’s. I am also not plugged into the circuits of those whose actions showing respect and honor were condemned by the early Church and by the Old Testament prophets. I can only judge these things functionally, from the outside. I have no doubt that you make a significant internal distinction between the two forms of showing honor, and I have no interest in judging people’s subjective dispositions. I do, however, think that I can make some observations about how nationalism functions in American society, and that is what I am doing.

First of all, I mentioned Hiroshima in response to the claim that American patriotism doesn’t condemn people to hell. My point was simply that people consign other people to this-worldly “hells” in the name of the nation. I was not explicitly addressing the question of whether Hiroshima was justified. As you know, I do not think it was, because I follow the mainstream of the Christian tradition in rejecting ethical consequentialism. (Also, I think it’s important to note that invasion was not the only alternative. Perhaps failing to topple the Japanese regime would have had even worse consequences than either of the other alternatives. But again, I am not a consequentialist.) But that really wasn’t my point.

That is no doubt true, and I am very glad to have you around to call me on it!

The restraint you have occasionally observed me exercising (uncharacteristically for me) on certain topics is partly due to my great dislike of disagreeing with you on points regarding which I know you feel strongly. Perhaps I ought to feel a similar restraint with regard to all other posters. Which perhaps means that I should take another break from the forum. . . .

God bless,

Edwin

Oh, drat. The board is not going to like me if I have driven you into self-exile.

GKC

 

[exnihilo]

American has a pretty good record of only going to war after they have been attacked or the national soveriegnty violated. If you’d like a list of America’s wars and their causes I’ll list them for you.

What? Vietnam (I guess there was a false flag attack), Iraq, Libya, Korea, Germany in WWI, Germany in WWII… The only real threat to the US, after independence, has been the British in 1812. We lost. The only other war fought significantly on US soil was an aggressive war against the South when they tried to reaffirm the right of the people to form their own government. Other than that we had to sail for a week in the old days or fly half a day to get to the enemy that ‘threatened’ us.

We pledge our allegiance to God when we witness to others, when we act charitably, when we resist temptation, when we serve our congregation, when we pray for those in need, when we pray with our family before eating at a restaurant. Romans 12:1 says we should present our bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, this is true worship.

Not the same. We make a verbal, public promise of allegiance. Many Americans want to make sure their kids publicly pledge allegiance each day in school to a government that forbids them to have prayer or make such a pledge in the same manner to God.

It’s not a matter of disliking southern flags - I grew up in Virginia. I have also noticed the same love of the US flag among Southerners that you mention, as well as a certain fondness for the CSA battle flag, which is what I was poking fun at in my comment: be glad that it is the US flag that is displayed in a southern church.

I understand now.

After reading Contarini’s various comments along the way, I think that part of the issue is that, yes, people are not always respectful of God and religion as they should be. For many of the posters the flag is most directly related to military service, which is still respected in our society. Perhaps, though, the challenge is not to respect military service less, but respect God more. Heck, men used to even tip their hats to ladies on the street (a form of salute), if we want to talk about signs of repect.

I do agree it could be a matter of showing greater respect to God. I also think we should show greater respect to other people like we did in the old day, using surnames for instance. Personally I think if we respected God more we might question the reverence we show the flag since it now stands for a government that is very anti-Christian representing a similarly minded culture.