Flaw in asking saints for intercession?

[snarflemike]

I wish there was some way that they could take the top of my head off and remove the garbage and replace it with the correct thinking on stuff:shrug:

I think St. Paul said something similar, so you’re in good company.

 

[BillTheSlink]

On the Hail Holy Queen Prayer:

Since it is a prayer for intercession I don’t think it is that off topic, so I would like to address it.

I had a tremendous time with this prayer and the rosary in general when I began converting a little over a year and a half ago from The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (the conservative Lutherans). I felt like I was ascribing to Mary what should be titles of Jesus, but I kept on praying it knowing it was a church approved prayer and had been for a very long time so there had to be an explanation. Then on day I listened to myself pray it and I just so happened to pause at just the right places for it to make since to me. Let’s look at it.

Hail Holy Queen!
Mother of Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope.
To thee do we cry poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy towards us
And after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweat Virgin Mary
Pray for us oh holy Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

First lets address the “Mother of Mercy…” part. it isn’t that Mary is Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness and our Hope, she is the mother of Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and our Hope. In other words the mother of Jesus!

Secondly when you look at the prayer it is a prayer for intercession to see the fruit of her womb Jesus and be made worth of Christ’s promises. There is nothing sinister at all about this prayer or out-of-place.

 

[LegoGE1947]

On the Hail Holy Queen Prayer:

Since it is a prayer for intercession I don’t think it is that off topic, so I would like to address it.

I had a tremendous time with this prayer and the rosary in general when I began converting a little over a year and a half ago from The Lutheran Church Missouri Synod (the conservative Lutherans). I felt like I was ascribing to Mary what should be titles of Jesus, but I kept on praying it knowing it was a church approved prayer and had been for a very long time so there had to be an explanation. Then on day I listened to myself pray it and I just so happened to pause at just the right places for it to make since to me. Let’s look at it.

Hail Holy Queen!
Mother of Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and Our Hope.
To thee do we cry poor banished children of Eve.
To thee do we send up our sighs mourning and weeping in this valley of tears.
Turn then most gracious advocate thine eyes of mercy towards us
And after this our exile, show unto us the blessed fruit of thy womb Jesus.
Oh clement, oh loving, oh sweat Virgin Mary
Pray for us oh holy Mother of God,
That we may be made worthy of the promises of Christ.

First lets address the “Mother of Mercy…” part. it isn’t that Mary is Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness and our Hope, she is the mother of Mercy, Our Life, Our Sweetness, and our Hope. In other words the mother of Jesus!

Secondly when you look at the prayer it is a prayer for intercession to see the fruit of her womb Jesus and be made worth of Christ’s promises. There is nothing sinister at all about this prayer or out-of-place.

When it is explained in this way it makes perfect sense. Thanks

 

[blakjak12]

In the Gospel of John, Jesus states that “Without me you can dothing.” He makes it clear that we need him to do good as humans.

The saints became and were great Catholics/Christians because of Jesus working in them; therefore, when you pray to them or ask them for intercession, you are in a way asking Jesus as well. In other words, recognizing their merits is truly recognizing Christ’s ability to work through us. Emphasing the saints is not detracting from our worship of Christ, rather it is allowing us to worship him more fully.

 

[QuickCat]

Mary is the Mediatrix of Grace and the Queen of Heaven and Earth.

The treasury of grace which was won by Jesus Christ on the Cross was entrusted by Christ to his Mother Mary, who is Full of Grace. Mary distributes this grace to us according to her will, which is always conformed with her Son’s will that all be saved. All grace we recieve in the confessional, all grace from reception of the Eucharist, from prayer and from good works that we do, all come to us from Christ through his Mother Mary, who is Full of Grace. We look to Mary to intercede with Christ on our behalf, to obtain the grace which is necessary for our salvation, and to distribute that grace to us.

Mary is a powerful protector. The devil flees when the Royal name of Mary is involked. The angels in heaven fear to look upon he face of God, but Mary stands in God’s presence interceeding on behalf of mankind. That is the role of the Queen in the Old Testament, to interceed with the King on behalf of the King’s subjects. The Kings of the Old Testament appointed their mother’s to the position of Queen. Jesus is the King of kings, and his mother is Queen of Heaven and Earth.

She is our life, sweetness and hope because she made Jesus present in Palestine 2000 years ago and she continues to make the grace of Jesus present for us now, today, wherever we are.

-Tim-

Hi Tim: Please cite the Scriptures to support your contentions about Mary.

Thanks,

QC

 

[animalis]

As such, is it flawed to have to ask someone else for help, rather than becoming holy enough yourself so you could get the favour yourself?

The Catechism of the Catholic Church states: “Being more closely united to Christ, those who dwell in heaven fix the whole Church more firmly in holiness…They do not cease to intercede with the Father for us, as they **proffer **the merits which they accquired…So by their fraternal concern is our **weakness **greatly helped.” (CCC 956)

I do not have my Oxford English Dictionary but I looked up **proffer **on Dictionary.com therein it reads “to put before a person for acceptance; offer” So all these innocent children of God in glory just want you to accept them as branches on a vine. I do not understand why people want to deny children. You sound well-intented.

Secondly, there is a strong scourge of individualism in our culture (northeast). To rely on yourself during the time of Jesus was a proposal to laugh at. They did not have half the power we have today. But this power that I specify is not the power of God, its the serving of mammon.(cf. Mt 6:24, Lk 16:9,11,13)

“I am rich, and made wealthy, and have need of nothing: and knowest not , that thou art wretched, and misrable, and poor, and blind, and naked.” (Rev 3:17) You can see the stark contrast in the verse from Revelation. The saints with the Trinity see the impotence of a soul in spiritual things. Self-knowledge reveals that we must rely on God and what he offers for everything we do. For we really are “wretched” and “poor” in the things of the spirit. If we say otherwise we lost those riches and our pride fools ourselves and we our foolish with others.

 

[donship]

You ask a very good question. I believe that this troubles you because God is calling you to a closer relationship with Himself.
As David rightly pointed out, there is no need to consider this as one or the other, but to see it as both.

Perhaps an example will help.
A fellow gets a job moving product around by hand. Some items he can handle easily, others are heavier, more bulky and generally difficult. He sees the other fellas working and determines to do as well. Of course it takes time for him to build up his strength. the foreman, and one of the older workers sees how diligently he works and each tries to help in whatever way is appropriate. It takes a few months but soon enough the new guy is moving product as well as everyone else.

The above example speaks to physical strength and development as well as mental determination and commitment. Our Spiritual strength is really no different.
When we begin our journey we are small and weak. God and the saints, by example as well as by intercession, try to help us along - but we must strive to build up our own strength. This is a gradual process and we never really know if we ever reach our full potential…We just keep striving…

So think if the Saints as like “co-workers” (in the vineyard) always willing to lend a hand - but also always beckoning us on to greater sanctity.

Peace
James

James,

Your example and ability to relate it to the original question in this thread is truly wondrous, comforting and reassuring. The “job” explanation made it so clear for me! You are truly blessed. I just want you to know that there is one sinner out there that you have touched. I am sure there are so, so many.

It is easy to see why your name has “Master” attached to it within these forums.:clapping:

May the Good Lord Be With You and Your Loved Ones, Always,
Don

 

[JRKH]

James,

Your example and ability to relate it to the original question in this thread is truly wondrous, comforting and reassuring. The “job” explanation made it so clear for me! You are truly blessed. I just want you to know that there is one sinner out there that you have touched. I am sure there are so, so many.

It is easy to see why your name has “Master” attached to it within these forums.:clapping:

May the Good Lord Be With You and Your Loved Ones, Always,
Don

Thank you for your very kind words. I am glad that my analogy was helpful to you.
As to “master” being attached to my name, I’m afraid it might be a bit misleading…Seems to be connected more with numbers of posts per day than with the quality of their content…
I do sincerely appreciate the compliment, though I can only say that any good is but the Spirit working through me and not of myself.

Peace
James

 

[R_C]

There’s no doubt that intercession of saints works. But is there a potential flaw in asking them for help?

We of course ask them for help because they are close to God. But wouldn’t it be better for us to become close to God ourselves, so we could ask God for miracles ourselves instead of needing any help from them?

And who in this world will become that holy? Padre Pio - and many other wonderful saints - were the first ones to humble themselves to the extent of crying like the prophet:

In you our fathers put their trust; they trusted and you delivered them. They cried to you and were saved; in you they trusted and were not disappointed. But I am a worm and not a man, scorned by men and despised by the people.

Padre Pio once said:

I am only a poor sinner friar that prays.

In fact, the common characteristic of all saints was that the greater their holiness, the greater their perception of being sinful and short of nothingness…a young Carmelite saint whom was blessed with wonderful union with Christ always said: “I am nothing, even worse, I am a criminal nothing.”

Of course we ought to pray to God all the time, we ought to pray each Person of the Trinity and the Trinity as one…we ought to give thanks, to ask for forgiveness, to ask for favors…we ought to get lost in the loving moments of contemplation…to suffer in the meditations of the Lord’s Passion…

…yet there is one thing we know: saints are already in heaven, that is, they are at the presence of the Most High. They speak to Him face to face, they have been truly purified and have been made perfect. Thus we ask for their intercession, and the Lord will pay attention to their words for their words are far more beautiful than ours…they are perfect words of love!

Yes, the Lord always listens to us, and very carefully, for we speak through Christ. And if the Lord listens to our prayer, it is very fit of His infinite love and mercy to always respond in some wonderful way.

However, notice the difference between our prayers and the prayers of the saints:

Psalm 141

May my prayer be set before you like incense

Revelation

Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel’s hand.

So while we grow close to the Lord, we humble ourselves and ask for the help of our dear brothers in the communion of saints…they shall speak the words that we cannot even conceive, for God’s greater glory and for the good of souls.

 

[QuickCat]

And who in this world will become that holy? Padre Pio - and many other wonderful saints - were the first ones to humble themselves to the extent of crying like the prophet:

Padre Pio once said:

In fact, the common characteristic of all saints was that the greater their holiness, the greater their perception of being sinful and short of nothingness…a young Carmelite saint whom was blessed with wonderful union with Christ always said: “I am nothing, even worse, I am a criminal nothing.”

Of course we ought to pray to God all the time, we ought to pray each Person of the Trinity and the Trinity as one…we ought to give thanks, to ask for forgiveness, to ask for favors…we ought to get lost in the loving moments of contemplation…to suffer in the meditations of the Lord’s Passion…

…yet there is one thing we know: saints are already in heaven, that is, they are at the presence of the Most High. They speak to Him face to face, they have been truly purified and have been made perfect. Thus we ask for their intercession, and the Lord will pay attention to their words for their words are far more beautiful than ours…they are perfect words of love!

Yes, the Lord always listens to us, and very carefully, for we speak through Christ. And if the Lord listens to our prayer, it is very fit of His infinite love and mercy to always respond in some wonderful way.

However, notice the difference between our prayers and the prayers of the saints:

Psalm 141

Revelation

So while we grow close to the Lord, we humble ourselves and ask for the help of our dear brothers in the communion of saints…they shall speak the words that we cannot even conceive, for God’s greater glory and for the good of souls.

The Apostle Paul exhorted the Hebrews to “…come boldly to the throne of grace…”
Heb 4:16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need. (KJV)

Also, have you noticed that he writes to the “saints” in his epistles to the Gentiles. Every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ is a saint.

Pray to God the Father in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ - Ephesians 5:20.

Grace and peace,
QC

 

[R_C]

QuickCat:
Yes, and the Lord said: ask, and you shall receive, that your joy may be full. He also called us no longer servants, but friends. But He himself, being the Son of the Most High, born of the chosen Virgin of Israel, the handmaid of the Almighty, called Himself, of all Messianic titles, the son of man…and you have read the psalm: “I am your servant and the son of your handmaid”.

It is a matter of humility - which is a virtue - to be bold and yet to be humble at the presence of God.

Yes, “the sanctos are those who have put on the white vest of the new man, fully developing their baptismal grace. They are the participants and the witnesses of the sancto God” to whom we say: “Quoniam tu solus Sanctus”. (link)

Thus, just like we pray to the Almighty through Christ our Lord, and just like we pray for each other and intercede for each other, we also ask for the intercession of our brothers who are already at the presence of the Most High, for Christians have always professed their belief in the communio sanctorum, spiritual union of the church militant, the church penitent, and the church triumphant.

Pax Christi tecum