Flaws with Theistic Evolution

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Instead, they attacked me for defending ID.
I took you to task for inventing a quote and pretending I said it. Otherwise, I attacked ideas, but not you.
They sucked down scientific positivism without a thought –
If so, so did Pope Benedict. My guess is that you don’t really know what scientific positivism is.
selling out the God they claim that they love and believe in.
You, of all people, have a lot of nerve saying that.
 
What basis have they got to challenge me on?
I don’t know, the fact that you deny Christ’s divinity, resurrection, miracles and claims? You deny the supernatural, miracles and the truthfulness of the writings on the lives of all the Catholic saints? That you deny the foundation of the Catholic Church? That you believe there is no heaven or hell – no divine purpose for mankind, no eternal life with God?

I don’t know, maybe Barbarian and SpiritMeadow and Tim could find something there that they’d oppose – I’m not sure.
 
I think you can be very confident that Barbarian won’t challenge or oppose your atheism. He’s quite happy to leave you to it.

His main concern is ridiculing and misrepresenting people who believe that science shows evidence of God in the universe.
 
nationalcatholicreporter.org/word/word090106.htm

Benedict’s deepest concern with the impact of Darwin’s theory is that it has promoted scientific positivism, holding that only empirical science can produce certainty, and hence that religion, if it survives at all, can only do so as a subjective, emotional consolation against the cold indifference of the universe. In response, Benedict argues that Christianity relies on truths deeper than empirical observation, among them that life has purpose. In this sense, he believes in “intelligent design” - not necessarily as the product of scientific observation, but as a metaphysical principle.

In his book In the Beginning, Ratzinger writes:

*“We must have the audacity to say that the great projects of the living creation are not the products of chance and error. Nor are they the products of a selective process to which divine predicates can be attributed in illogical, unscientific, and even mythic fashion. The great projects of the living creation point to a creating Reason and show us a creating Intelligence, and they do so more luminously and radiantly today than ever before. Thus we can say today with a new certitude and joyousness that the human being is indeed a divine project, which only the creating Intelligence was strong and great and audacious enough to conceive of. Human beings are not a mistake but something willed; they are the fruit of love. They can disclose in themselves, in the bold project that they are, the language of the creating Intelligence that speaks to them and that moves them to say: Yes, Father, you have willed me.” *
 
In this sense, he believes in “intelligent design” - not necessarily as the product of scientific observation, but as a metaphysical principle.
ID is a metaphysical principle. Or, in the case of the sort we know in the United States, it’s a new religion.

But it’s not science. As your quote shows.
 
“not science” is the slogan response to ID. Intelligent Design is a solid concept and worth looking into, but its implications are too jarring for some. If we found a clearly artificial structure on the moon, but no moon men, who would we credit the find to?

God bless,
Ed
 
“not science” is the slogan response to ID. Intelligent Design is a solid concept and worth looking into, but its implications are too jarring for some. If we found a clearly artificial structure on the moon, but no moon men, who would we credit the find to?
God bless,
Ed
I think that ID has some good philosophical potential (i dont agree with all of it); but like you say, it is not Science. We damaged ID philosophy when we presented it as such.

Peace.
 
I note the Catholic-Darwinists here who never challenged you [Alec (hecd2] once on your atheistic conclusions.
ReggieM formost above all else think globalization and quality education, remembering that the Holy See just loves Alec! 😃 Hopefully, one day he will be a member of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences. :gopray2: The Vatican has their eyes on him. 😉

HISTORY OF THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES
The Pontifical Academy of Sciences is international in scope, multi-racial in composition, and non-sectarian in its choice of members. The work of the Academy comprises six major areas: Fundamental science; Science and technology of global problems; Science for the problems of the Third World; Scientific policy; Bioethics; Epistemology.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/own/documents/rc_pa_acdscien_doc_10121999_history_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...s/rc_pa_acdscien_doc_10121999_history_en.html

STATUTES OF THE PONTIFICAL ACADEMY OF SCIENCES

Part II: THE ACADEMICIANS
Art. 5

*Candidates for a seat in the Academy are chosen by the Academy on the basis of their eminent original scientific studies and of their acknowledged moral personality, without any ethnical or religious discrimination, and are appointed for life by sovereign act of the Holy Father. *
vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/own/documents/rc_pa_acdscien_doc_170999_statues_en.html
http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/p...nts/rc_pa_acdscien_doc_170999_statues_en.html
There is a God Himself who is called Truth. And that essential, divine generation that expresses all the perfection of the Divine Essence, the Word; and the Word means the Truth. And when God thought of saving the world it was the Word, it was Divine Truth, that came to save it. And when he was saving men, it was the title Teacher that most pleased him, and he accepted it and approved it: Vocatis me magistrum et bene dicitis; sum etenim (Jn 13:13). And when he sent out the Apostles to preach redemption to the world, he gave them, before anything else, the mandate to teach: Euntes docete (Mt 28:19. Cfr. Mk 16:15 f.). This was really the cry of he who had said: the truth will make you free: Veritas liberabit vos (Jn 8:32).
And thus it was that, in order to fulfill this very important part of their mission, the Roman Pontiffs, our glorious antecedents, so magnificently, so splendidly, and also so heroically, constantly acted to gather together in our admirable Vatican library those treasures of which we have been the fortunate custodians. When the Roman Pontiffs did this, they thought that they were carrying out a part, a very notable part, of their Apostolic Ministry.
And therefore, we congratulate you with all our heart on the great good that you do here, on that which we have heard or now hear, on what you have gathered together in all the luminous fields of truth; and wishing and hoping that this Academy will become an increasingly rich source of that beneficial charity which Truth is.
(Pius XI, Address of 27 December 1925 to Inaugurate the Academic Year of the Pontifical Academy of Sciences, in Papal Addresses, The Pontifical Academy of Sciences, Scripta Varia 100, Vatican City 2003, p. 25 f.)
A small voice in prayer might result in a tiny miracle that could make a non-believer believe. :gopray2:
 
“not science” is the slogan response to ID.
In the sense that “big bear” is the slogan response to a grizzly.
Intelligent Design is a solid concept and worth looking into,
So far, it’s a dry well, able only to “predict” things already known. When it becomes a solid scientific concept, scientists will start using it, regardless of its implications. Until then, they’ll ignore it.

Tough game, but it works.
but its implications are too jarring for some.
Well, the idea that God is an inferior little “designer” is a bit jarring, for most of us. We generally think of Him as the omnipotent Creator.
If we found a clearly artificial structure on the moon, but no moon men, who would we credit the find to?
Apollo 11.
 
I’ve invested quite a lot of time on these evolutionary threads here at CA recently, and what I found convinced me that Darwinism is even more indefensable than I thought.
Well, that is probably equal training to a college degree. :rolleyes:

Look, it is not that difficult. It may take a long time if you have NO science background, but it isn’t that hard. Take some classes, or, if that isn’t an option, get a good biology textbook and learn a little about what you find so indefensible.
Normally the way this is done from the Darwinists here is to attack ID.
Well, actually what is normal is that anti-scientists will attack scientists, usually by at least once questioning their faith because they accept science as truth.

So don’t act like it only goes one way.
I’ve seen enough contradictions and deliberate ambiguity in these conversations to have it very clear in my own mind. Aside from a lot of bluster and hostility, there’s very little of substance.
Yep, and I suggest you stop with the contradictions, deliberate ambiguity, bluster and hostility. It does your argument no good.
I note the Catholic-Darwinists here who never challenged you once on your atheistic conclusions.
His science isn’t in question on this thread. He is mistaken on his faith statements, but that would be for another thread.
Instead, they attacked me for defending ID.
I haven’t attacked you. Not even once.
They sucked down scientific positivism without a thought – selling out the God they claim that they love and believe in.
Yep. See my response above. This is actually incredibly predictable.

For the record, I am a Catholic. I accept every single work of the Niecene Creed that I recite on Sundays. I have an active prayer life. I would NEVER have the ARROGANCE to make a charge like the one you made. NEVER.

Peace

Tim
 
I don’t know, the fact that you deny Christ’s divinity, resurrection, miracles and claims? You deny the supernatural, miracles and the truthfulness of the writings on the lives of all the Catholic saints? That you deny the foundation of the Catholic Church? That you believe there is no heaven or hell – no divine purpose for mankind, no eternal life with God?

I don’t know, maybe Barbarian and SpiritMeadow and Tim could find something there that they’d oppose – I’m not sure.
Yeah, I oppose all of that, but not from a scientific standpoint. This thread is about flaws in theistic evolution, not Alec’s faith. Maybe you should focus, in this thread, on his scientific points and see if you can refute them.

Peace

Tim
 
If there are supernatural causes in the universe, then what role do they play in human life? If they do play some role, then this needs to be considered in any scientific explanation of the development of human life.
Yes it does need to be considered; because it has to distill out supernatural reasoning it really cannot prove anything. It can do a decent job of ruling out explanations. That can help build up some awfully complex explanation of phenomenon that seems to be true, because the complexity of the concept is not proved false. If a key with a complex set of teeth fits into a lock, you cannot say that the key was intended to go with the lock, but you can say you are rather certain of it.

As far as the supernatural, it doesn’t matter if they happen a lot. It can always be true for order for a supernatural event to be able to effect the universe, by only having one supernatural event take place. If “science” ever picked it up in some experiment, then it should probably be ruled out as an anomaly.

So I would guess science does take that into account, by saying “we could always be wrong.” What can I say, science is to Truth, as probably is to an actual event taking place. If you want a strong plausible idea of what is going on, science is great, if you want complete accuracy and preciseness know what your getting. If you want perfection, good luck trying to get anything perfect.
 
This thread is not about science, it is about ideology. God is placed by some, into a box, and we visit Him on Sundays. But he is not allowed to go near the SACRED Peer Reviewed Papers.

What has become holy for some is the peer reviewed papers. The substantial and that which can be experienced by the five senses become objects of worship. SpiritMeadow has stated that scientific statements should not be applied to religion, yet there are those here who want Catholics to validate naturalism. I am against that 100%.

God bless,
Ed
 
Good for you, but your private opinion, because it is utterly uninformed, is of no consequence.
One could say that your private opinion, because your soul is unregenerate, is equally of no consequense.

That’s one thing about Christians and atheists…after we both die, one of us is in for one gigantic surprise.
 
I’ve already answered you fully way back in October, and yet you just pop up again with the same old fallacy, as though you had never been corrected. Don’t you ever learn anything, or are you just so committed to your religious ideas that no reason can get through to you? I will patiently repeat that October post in the faint hope that you will understand it this time:
Fair enough…👍
This is all reasonably sensible stuff dating back to 1999 that attempts to explain how Hall’s and Cairn’s directed mutations could arise if we consider the cell to be a quantum particle in superposition (although I do think that the idea that cells enter a state of superposition only when they are starving is a little bizarre - most people would say that the suspension of metabolism is a classical effect promoted by enzymes and cell signalling - and nothing to do with quantum superposition).
So here, you have identified two, (not one) perfectly valid different hypotheses…bizarre or not, the quantum evolution hypothesis still remains valid, whether you, or the majority accept it not. I will not get into “cell signalling” because the focus is put directly on the Professor McFadden’s article

pnews.org/ArT/TrU/QuantumEvolution.shtml
But I don’ t think that these explanations are needed.
It’s you’re opinion; and you certainly are entitled in having one.However, your opinion, is just that…an opinion; no more, no less.

As I mentioned in another post, the existance of a different hypothesis does not render McFadden’s
hypothesis invalid. The Big Bang theory and the Steady State theory both exist as plausible hypotheses…one is simply accepted more than the other.
More recent work by Patricia Foster who worked with Cairns (see Foster, Adaptive Mutation in E coli, Journal of Bacteriology, August 2004, p. 4846-4852)
has shown that although the mutational rate goes up when bacteria are starving on a novel substrate, the rate of the beneficial mutation does not go up any more than similar mutations nearby on the genome - there is no “direction” going on.
It seems that McFadden is also aware as he did write:

It is now clear that there were some problems in Cairns original experimental design that meant he missed some of the mutations that did indeed occur in other genes. Yet the phenomenon of adaptive mutations persists and has been detected in a wide range of microbes and even in animal cells.

His approach is more holistic in nature.His focus seems more on trying to explain why there is an increase
in mutation rate in the first place, and why is it dependant on the environment?
What would be your opinion as to why this particular property of mutation exists?
(Quote from the paper:“Fairly early on in our studies, Cairns and I eliminated the hypothesis that mutations were “directed” toward a useful goal.”) It is not true that the cells only acquire the appropriate mutation when lactose is available - it is true that the mutation only fixes and spreads when lactose is available (but that is natural selection in action). The fitness landscape is obviously different depending on which substrate the bacteria grow. In the same way that the most primitive precursor to eyes, a light sensitive patch, would not have been conserved if light had not been available (and animals that adapt to live in darkness often lose their sight and end up with vestigial eyes) - the fitness landscape favours sight if light is available but not in the dark.
this only testifies to what Dr McFadden wrote :

Adaptive mutations is still one of the most controversial topics in genetics and provokes the most heated exchanges at conferences. Many scientists simply refuse to believe in their existence.
Adaptive mutations (a term that is at least 25 years old by the way, not new) are random with respect to fitness. In other words, when the bacteria are stressed all sorts of mutations occur randomly at a higher rate than normal (as my quotation from Patricia Foster shows - the mutations are NOT directed). Those very few bacterial cells that acquire a beneficial mutation (instead of a neutral or deleterious one), are then able to metabolise their substrate and happily return to a state of exponential growth. As far as all the huge quantity of evidence shows, **all **mutations are random with respect to fitness - there are no magic non-random (with respect to fitness) mutations
I am not the one having problems in understanding that different hypotheses exist; it is you who cannot accept that some valid scientific hypothesis exists, pointing to mutation as being non random, which, in turn, would identify Evolution also as being non-random
in essence.
Andre
 
Selective breeding of animals by humans is guided evolution. It is science. It is not a theological issue.
yes, human guided breeding is certainly science. God guided evolution is a belief that I believe is not capable of being tested.
.
Yes, I concede that God could have used evolution. Data may still come in which might convince me of that. This process is called having an open mind.
Yes, I’d like to see that too. But I rather doubt it will happen. I could be wrong. I’m keeping my eyes open.
I’m not denying “the science” because I’m unhappy with non-believers mis-using it. I have a very good science background, and I disagree with “random non-guided mutations and natural selection” on the basis of math and science, not in spite of it.
were you aware the that NAS has come out with a brand new statement regarding evolution and creationism? I’ve not seen it yet, but I think it restates the obvious. Do you really believe they are deliberately keeping the truth from people?
 
I’ve seen the very same thing on many a Darwinist webboards also. The passionate responses (about biology?) are filled with bitterness towards others and are well-described in the adjectives you use above.
I think what you see is deep frustration,mostly as to why folks want to adher to a certain beliefs that the Church does not require and also to call them what they so far have not been proved to be…science. It just gets tiresome and some of us simply can;t figure out why some folks are proposing these unnecessary things for no reason that seems apparent other than they are deeply angry with atheists and somehow making bad science they think is a way to do it.
 
Ok, thank you.

SpiritMeadow passionately insisted to me that nobody in the discussion was an atheist. Perhaps she didn’t know about your views either.
Can’t say that I did. However, I don’t believe that interfers with his ability to state what he believes to be true scientifically about the evidence. I don’t try to claim that my theology is scientifically proven. I’ve stated several times that i believe that so far it hasn’t and I personally believe it will never be because I believe that changes the dynamics of faith to non-existence and is not what God wishes. But that is my belief.
 
Ordinary human people were raised from the dead. Jesus raised Lazarus. St. Peter raised people from the dead, as did St. Benedict and many others. When a dead brain comes back to life it cannot be through the power of the dead brain itself.

These examples would be relevant for those who accept the documented evidence of miraculous occurences – beginning with the resurrection of Christ. That’s clear evidence that there is more to the human person than the brain itself – there are powers beyond the brain.

But obviously, for a person like yourself dismisses all evidence of the miraculous as either fraudulent or illusory or at best a manifestation of the natural powers of the brain – then those examples will not mean anything.
No I think you are making a drastically wrong conclusion here. We believe that Jesus rose from the dead, and raised others. There are statements of this in texts from the bible which we accept on faith. There is no independent proof of their being real. There is no way to make that determination since it refers to a supernatural event which science says it cannot investigate. I assume science can and does speak to whether it can or can’t provide a “rational” explanation for a thing happening. When it cannot explain it, we can if we wish attribute it to God.

Your proof is testimonial in nature and not scientific.
 
Deep anger? Not at all. While we Catholics preach the good news of Jesus Christ, others here are, with great passion, trying to preach the good news of atheistic naturalism, and call it science. The science and its associated sociological effects are inextricably linked. To call science neutral is like saying, Of course, when we do science we don’t actually do anything with it. On the contrary, the products of science are used both in physical form and to attempt to indoctrinate people. It is in no way neutral when used for indoctrination purposes. I’m not blaming science for that but there are a lot pf atheist indoctrinators out there.

I also find it hard to understand that someone can believe in God but not want science to come anywhere near the Church. I suggest you look up the Pontifical Academy of Sciences established by the Vatican. The Church does science.

vatican.va/roman_curia/pontifical_academies/acdscien/

God bless,
Ed
 
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