Flirting, Thoughts, Lust, and Sin

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I agree with just about everything here, but I am having some trouble with the last sentence.

I am absolutely 100% with you when it comes to finding new ways to more fully give ourselves to our neighbour… learning about how women/men think can be a great way to become more empathetic and to overcome greed and pride when dealing with people of the opposite gender. When it comes to learning how to flirt, however, I think this depends heavily on how we define “flirting”.

If we define flirting as being confident and relaxed around other people and making jokes the same way we would with our own family, then I think this is not only OK but it’s actually a state that we should aim for! Jesus wants us to be the best version of ourselves and to not behave differently around different people. If we truly are in a virtuous state then I believe you could walk into a job interview behaving exactly the same way you would around the neighbour who lets their dog pee on your lawn and still walk out with a job offer! The key to getting to this state, is to grow in personal morality to such a degree that the whole world can dissapprove of you but God’s love is all you need to be content! (I don’t know about you but I’m a long ways off! 😉 )

If we define flirting as the intentional modification of one’s own behavior for the purpose of “getting” something, however, then I think that has very little to do with love (which is the full “giving” of one’s self). While the commandment to love thy neighbour is admittedly very broad, you have to admit that this concept of flirting does appear to be diametrically opposed to the general act of giving selflessly. I believe this is also a very unsuccessful method of flirting, since people can pick up on the lack of sincerity and they find it repulsive (just, as I’m sure, our Blessed Lord finds it repulsive).

This is why I don’t advise the intentional modification of one’s own behavior/physical qualities for the purpose of attracting a spouse (it seems to fit in much more closely with the latter definition of flirting then with the former). I think our future spouses deserve to see us behave the same way on a first date as she/he will see us behaving 10 years after marriage. If a person feels a need to change their behavior/appearance for a prospective date, then perhaps this is a cue that he/she needs to work more on loving their neighbour and following the commandments more closely since Jesus calls us to be perfect all the time, not just on first dates! 😃
But we do act differently in different situations. I act differently at work, at home, with my wife, with my children, with my friends, at church, at a bbq, at the football, etc… Some conversations are appropriate for some company and not others. Some manners of behaviour - serious, joking, fun, respectful, playful, etc - are appropriate for some occasions and not others. I don’t need to act towards my wife in the same manner as my mother, my sister, my children, my priest, my co-workers, etc.

Flirting is a way to express interest and availability to people of the opposite sex. It involves acting towards the object of our interest in ways different to other people, to let that person know, in a more subtle way than blurting it out, that we are interested in them. It involves open body language, facial expressions, playful banter, etc. None of these things are wrong in themselves, when motives are honourable. Learning to flirt needn’t be considered a bad thing, as some people need a bit of help and need to develop confidence. Confidence is generally considered an attractive trait, and some people lack it and need to develop it.

Flitring can of course be bad, when directed at the wrong people and/or for the wrong motives. But when used in the appropriate manner I don’t see any problem with it.

But ultimately we do modify our behavoiur; I can’t agree with your suggestion that we shouldn’t. The person we are interested in (as a potential furture spouse) needs to feel that our interest in them is different from our interest in other people.
 
MidnightSun12

So are we supposed to treat every relationship the same? I should talk to a girl I think is attractive exactly the same way I would talk to my sister or my mom? That is ridiculous, because I don’t feel the same way about a girl I am attracted to as I do about my sister or mom. To treat them the same would not only be an insult to the girl I am attracted to, it would be downright wierd. I am not looking for the same kind of relationship from an attractive girl that I have with my sister.

To act differently with different people isn’t insincerity. It is natural because I am not the only person in this world. Every person has their own personality, and consequently we are going to deal differently with each of them. That is the way of personal interraction; you come together where your personalities meet.

If I am attracted to a girl, why would I talk to her in the same way I would talk to someone I am not attracted to? I would be implying that I am not attracted to her. It seems that you want to repress passion and try to have a relationship on a purely intellectual level. That will never work for dating.
 
MidnightSun12

So are we supposed to treat every relationship the same? I should talk to a girl I think is attractive exactly the same way I would talk to my sister or my mom? That is ridiculous, because I don’t feel the same way about a girl I am attracted to as I do about my sister or mom. To treat them the same would not only be an insult to the girl I am attracted to, it would be downright wierd. I am not looking for the same kind of relationship from an attractive girl that I have with my sister.

To act differently with different people isn’t insincerity. It is natural because I am not the only person in this world. Every person has their own personality, and consequently we are going to deal differently with each of them. That is the way of personal interraction; you come together where your personalities meet.

If I am attracted to a girl, why would I talk to her in the same way I would talk to someone I am not attracted to? I would be implying that I am not attracted to her. It seems that you want to repress passion and try to have a relationship on a purely intellectual level. That will never work for dating.
I would say that, as men, we should strive to talk to a woman who is attractive the same way in which we would talk to a woman (who isn’t a family member) who happens to be unnattractive… that is with the respect and love that Christ teaches us. We need to remember Sara’s words:
Tobit 3:16-25:
Thou knowest, O Lord, that I never coveted a husband, and have kept my soul clean from all lust. 17 Never have I joined myself with them that play: neither have I made myself partaker with them that walk in lightness. 18 But a husband I consented to take, with thy fear, not with my lust.
If we talk to a person differently based on their “useful” qualities to us, then I feel that this is at the very least a vain activity, and possibly even an imperfection that could predispose us to the sin of lust. If God predestines our spouses, then what purpose does flirting serve? Wouldn’t we be better served in spending our efforts trying to grow in personal holiness and treating all women in our lives with greater respect and love since we do not know which one God might have chosen for us as a spouse?

Here is another interesting story that I came accross about how Blessed Louis and Zelie Martin (a rare example of two Saints who were married to each other) met. I feel that these two Saints are the example of matrimony to which we all must strive. Louis is described as being a devout man who was “too much in love with bachelorhood”. Notice how God brought these two Saints together:
A mysterious incident facilitated the acquaintance. One day when Zélie Guérin was crossing the bridge of Saint Léonard she met a young man whose distinguished appearance, dignified bearing and reserved manner made a favourable impression on her. At that same moment an inner voice murmured: “This is he whom I have prepared for you”. The identity of the passer-by was soon revealed to her. She learned to know Louis Martin.
source: sttherese.com/Louis%20and%20Zelie.html

It doesn’t make sense to me how a God who constantly tells us to renounce the world and deny ourselves would send us a spouse at a time when we desire to have one. It makes more sense that God would hold back bringing us our spouses until we reach a state of holiness where we are disinterested and completely content remaining single forever. I believe that this is the state that us single folks who are called to marriage must seek to obtain, as difficult and scary as it may seem! 🙂

Unfortunately, many of us do not seek to do God’s will and end up marrying people that God has not destined for us to marry (often falling into some sort of sin of impurity in the process). In many cases, matrimony becomes a great hindrance to our salvation…😦

EDIT: For the record, I think I’m personally a long ways off from reaching the state I described above, just look at my state of mind a few months ago:
forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=677899
 
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