Flogging adulterers and adulteresses one hundred times

[paarsurrey]

forums.catholic-questions.org/showpost.php?p=4533724&postcount=31
When to forgive and when not to forgive

Originally Posted by dzheremi
Hi Paarsurrey:

Here is an article from “American Thinker” internet journal that deals with some of the harsh punishments found in Islam, including references from the Quran. Please read it and comment on it, if you’d like.

Hi

I have gone thrugh the article in “American Thinker” internet journal that deals with some of the harsh punishments.

First for :

Flogging adulterers and adulteresses one hundred times

[24:1] In the name of Allah, the Gracious, the Merciful.
[24:2] This is a Surah which We have revealed and the ordinances of which We have made obligatory; and We have revealed therein clear commandments that you may take heed.

[24:3] The adulteress and the adulterer - flog each one of them with a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain take hold of you in executing the judgement of Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.

[24:4] The adulterer cannot have sexual intercourse but with an adulteress or an idolatrous woman, and an adulteress - none can have sexual intercourse with her but an adulterer or an idolatrous man. That indeed is forbidden to the believers.
[24:5] And those who culminate chaste woman but bring not four witnesses - flog them with eighty stripes, and do not admit their evidence ever after, for it is they that are the transgression,
[24:6] Except those who repent thereafter and make amends, for truly Allah is Most forgiving, Merciful.
[24:7] And as for those who charge their wives with adultery and have no witnesses except themselves - the evidence of anyone of such people shall suffice if he bears witness four times in the name of Allah solemnly affirming that he is of those who speak the truth;
[24:8] And the fifth time that Allah’s curse be upon him if he be of the liars.
[24:9] But it shall avert the punishment from her if she bears witness four times in the name of Allah that he is of the liars;
[24:10] And the fifth time that the wrath of Allah be upon her if he has spoken the truth.
[24:11] And were it not for Allah’s grace and His mercy upon you, and that Allah is compassionate and Wise, you would have come to grief.

alislam.org/quran/search2…?ch=24&verse=0

Is it for Jews, Christians and others?

Jesus was a Jew; what Book did he and Mary beleived in and acted upon?

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[bpbasilphx]

**
[24:3] The adulteress and the adulterer - flog each one of them with a hundred stripes. And let not pity for the twain take hold of you in executing the judgement of Allah, if you believe in Allah and the Last Day. And let a party of the believers witness their punishment.***

**Then just why was a 13-year old Mahometan girl STONED for adultery?

Actually, she was raped, but didn’t have the 4 male witnesses, so she was condemned as an adulteress.

Isa akbar!

Isa akbar!

ISA AKBAR!

I bear witness there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead.**

 

[cathopologist]

Jesus was a Jew; what Book did he and Mary beleived in and acted upon?

Thanks

Hmm, thats a tough question. Was it the Qu’ran?

 

[ralphinal]

How about this little nugget: when beatings were allowed in the Ancient Jewish world, it was to be done no more than 40 times, as any beyond that could cause death. In fact, they typically did it 40 minus 1 (39) just to be safe.

Now, why would Allah call for over twice as many than he did with the Jews? Are Muslims harder to kill? Does it take more to punish them?

[24:4] The adulterer cannot have sexual intercourse but with an adulteress or an idolatrous woman, and an adulteress - none can have sexual intercourse with her but an adulterer or an idolatrous man. That indeed is forbidden to the believers

I do not understand what this is saying.

[24:6] Except those who repent thereafter and make amends, for truly Allah is Most forgiving, Merciful.

If they repent, are they not beaten?

[24:7] And as for those who charge their wives with adultery and have no witnesses except themselves - the evidence of anyone of such people shall suffice if he bears witness four times in the name of Allah solemnly affirming that he is of those who speak the truth;

Does that mean that you do not need witnesses if you swear four times that you are truthful?

 

[eldestofvic]

**

Then just why was a 13-year old Mahometan girl STONED for adultery?

An action which Amnesty International (a neutral third party observer) has said is illegal under Islamic law. So what is your point? Fundamentalists everywhere twist their scriptures to fullfil their dark desires all the time. Even ones that " bear witness there is NO GOD but Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and Jesus is God Incarnate risen from the dead".

 

[eldestofvic]

And for the record OT punishment for adultery (and OT is really the only applicable benchmark to Islam):

“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.” (Deuteronomy 22: 22)

“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death” (Leviticus 20: 10).

As the Qu’ran demands a flogging rather than death, it would appear that Islam is rather more hospitable (in this highly relative comparison) wouldn’t you say?

 

[ralphinal]

And for the record OT punishment for adultery (and OT is really the only applicable benchmark to Islam):

“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.” (Deuteronomy 22: 22)

“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death” (Leviticus 20: 10).

As the Qu’ran demands a flogging rather than death, it would appear that Islam is rather more hospitable (in this highly relative comparison) wouldn’t you say?

No. If you look at the OT passages, they must be caught in the act. The Qur’an only requires witness, or if there are none, the husband to swear four times that he is honest. Being scourged 100 times is cruel and harsh and might end in a slow death, anyway.

If you read the NT, Jesus would not allow for death or a severe mutaliting beating for this type of sin. So, I could care less what the Ancient Jews had to do. If Islam is the perfection of what Jesus taught, why is it different?

 

[eldestofvic]

No. If you look at the OT passages, they must be caught in the act.

Relevance? I was pointing out the differences in punishment.

The Qur’an only requires witness, or if there are none, the husband to swear four times that he is honest.

And in her defense a woman only needs to swear four times that he is a liar.

Being scourged 100 times is cruel and harsh and might end in a slow death, anyway.

I already pointed out that this was a harsh world.

If you read the NT, Jesus would not allow for death or a severe mutaliting beating for this type of sin.

No Jesus did not undermine with a single word any of the just punishments his very Word had given before. With the case of adultery as described in the NT, Jesus only challenged the particular participants in that action. Let’s face it Jesus was on this planet for 33 years and in ministry for three of them. Are you for one moment suggesting that the incident in John 7-8 was the only time in that period a woman was caught in adultery.

It is true that in time the western christian world has come to temper its response to these sorts of sins. And it is also largely true that we can thank thoughtful christian leaders for this progression. However, at the time and at the place this was still considered the just punishment of God based on his commands in holy writ.

So, I could care less what the Ancient Jews had to do. If Islam is the perfection of what Jesus taught, why is it different?

Islam claims Mohamed to be the perfection of Jesus (and all of the prophets), not what Jesus taught. It is this way that Islam is thus considered to be the perfection of Judaism and Christianity. What Jesus “taught” is wrapped up in the NT which they consider a fabrication. Therefore, appeals to it, as relevant as they may seem to you and I, are irrelevant when directed to Islam.

 

[paarsurrey]

And for the record OT punishment for adultery (and OT is really the only applicable benchmark to Islam):

“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.” (Deuteronomy 22: 22)

“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death” (Leviticus 20: 10).

As the Qu’ran demands a flogging rather than death, it would appear that Islam is rather more hospitable (in this highly relative comparison) wouldn’t you say?

Hi

You make a good point in right direction.

In Judaism the punishment as quoted above is death; and Jesus and Mary were Jews and they believed and acted upon the OTBible, not NTBibe as it was not there.

So, Islam is more merciful; and in that sense Muhammad is more meciful than Moses, Jesus and Mary, in my opinion.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

However, at the time and at the place this was still considered the just punishment of God based on his commands in holy writ.

It is this way that Islam is thus considered to be the perfection of Judaism and Christianity.

Hi

Your above comments are in the right direction and positive. I appreciate your post.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Relevance? I was pointing out the differences in punishment.

Very relevant. Being in delicto flagrante when caught is totally different. In the most places today that do not allow ANY punishment for Adultry, catching your wife in bed with another man can be grounds for all kinds of actions

And in her defense a woman only needs to swear four times that he is a liar.

Then what?

I already pointed out that this was a harsh world.

Shouldn’t religion try to ease the harshness? Or should it contribute?

No Jesus did not undermine with a single word any of the just punishments his very Word had given before. With the case of adultery as described in the NT, Jesus only challenged the particular participants in that action. Let’s face it Jesus was on this planet for 33 years and in ministry for three of them. Are you for one moment suggesting that the incident in John 7-8 was the only time in that period a woman was caught in adultery.

Jesus said to forgive those who wrong you. Having the ever-loving stuff beaten out of someone IS NOT FORGIVENESS.

It is true that in time the western christian world has come to temper its response to these sorts of sins. And it is also largely true that we can thank thoughtful christian leaders for this progression. However, at the time and at the place this was still considered the just punishment of God based on his commands in holy writ.

Islam has been around for 1500 years. Are they any closer to being more kind?

Islam claims Mohamed to be the perfection of Jesus (and all of the prophets), not what Jesus taught. It is this way that Islam is thus considered to be the perfection of Judaism and Christianity. What Jesus “taught” is wrapped up in the NT which they consider a fabrication. Therefore, appeals to it, as relevant as they may seem to you and I, are irrelevant when directed to Islam.

Really? The fact that they call Paul a lier, Jesus a lier, Mary a lier, all the Apostles liers, then claim to love them (except Paul), then tell us that we should be Muslim like Jesus really bugs me.

Perhaps I am too close to the situation. I see calling Jesus and those closest to him a lying peice of trash to be insulting to me and to them.

 

[paarsurrey]

It is true that in time the western christian world has come to temper its response to these sorts of sins.

Hi

In my opinion, in reaction to the rigid creeds of religionists the Secular Movement developed in West and this progress is the fruit of this movement and not of Christianity. Its price West had to pay ; people got drifted away from God ,church and I think also family.

Thanks

 

[eldestofvic]

Very relevant. Being in delicto flagrante when caught is totally different. In the most places today that do not allow ANY punishment for Adultry, catching your wife in bed with another man can be grounds for all kinds of actions

What kind of legal actions would you be refering to? What I was drawing attention to was not the definiton of how a sin was deemed to have taken place but only the response to that sin once determined

Then what?

Then what, what? All I did was point out that you had overlooked that the remedy is the same for the woman as the man.

Shouldn’t religion try to ease the harshness? Or should it contribute?

No that’s more the job of hospitals and mattress makers. Religions are suppose to do what their Gd tells them to do no matter how harsh it may seem.

Jesus said to forgive those who wrong you. Having the ever-loving stuff beaten out of someone IS NOT FORGIVENESS.

And when your religion does not recognize that Jesus has the authority to say this, he is only one man talking, and a blasphemer. If Gd has told you to “beat the ever-loving stuff” out of sinners, you do so, because Gd is Gd and His ways are not your ways.

Islam has been around for 1500 years. Are they any closer to being more kind?

And after 1000 years did Christians display any level more of kindness from Jerusulam to Srebinica?
Islam has its more liberal elements and more fundamental regimes just like every other religion. And again, when did “kind” become a benchmark for obedience?

Really? The fact that they call Paul a lier, Jesus a lier, Mary a lier, all the Apostles liers, then claim to love them (except Paul), then tell us that we should be Muslim like Jesus really bugs me.

Perhaps I am too close to the situation. I see calling Jesus and those closest to him a lying peice of trash to be insulting to me and to them.

Listen, I’m not saying that Islam is right. If I felt that way then obviously I should become a Muslim. I think what I’m responding to mostly in these threads is the level of rhetoric that seems more in keeping with the kind of stuff/attitudes etc. that I’ve had to face defending Catholic teachings to Protestants.

 

[eldestofvic]

Hi

In my opinion, in reaction to the rigid creeds of religionists the Secular Movement developed in West and this progress is the fruit of this movement and not of Christianity. Its price West had to pay ; people got drifted away from God ,church and I think also family.

Thanks

All appearances to the contrary I would suggest you are wrong in this assessment.

The secular movement (the modern invention that it is) loves to take credit for social progress. However, so-called secular society did not exist during the period that most of these social advances took place so it would seem pointless to pursue that position. Pretty much every single advance in the social sphere that we can imagine can be traced not to secularism but rather the religious.

 

[eldestofvic]

Rather what we trace to secularism is exactly those negatives you mentioned in the end.

The drifting away from Gd… universalism, relativeism, “do your own thing”

The drifting away from Church… largely a belief that “Church” lacked relevance… a perception problem I largely lay on the shoulders of Protestants… “I don’t need a Church I got Jesus” which gradually leads to simply “I don’t need a Church”

Family values… That’s really a no-brainer… turn on your TV.

 

[inJESUS]

And for the record OT punishment for adultery (and OT is really the only applicable benchmark to Islam):

“If a man is found sleeping with another man’s wife, both the man who slept with her and the woman must die.” (Deuteronomy 22: 22)

“If a man commits adultery with another man’s wife-with the wife of his neighbor-both the adulterer and the adulteress must be put to death” (Leviticus 20: 10).

As the Qu’ran demands a flogging rather than death, it would appear that Islam is rather more hospitable (in this highly relative comparison) wouldn’t you say?

no, because any Jew will tell you the Law puts formidable obstacles against it to the point of nearly making it impossible.

 

[planten]

no, because any Jew will tell you the Law puts formidable obstacles against it to the point of nearly making it impossible.

**inJesus, that is denying the hospitable attitude of Islam towards adultery. The Jews had a very good law (Death). The chritians do not have any law against adultery. The Muslims have a law of flogging. So any one can judge who is right or more hospitable.

I have read the laws mentioned in the bibleOT. I find them excellent laws, even if introduced today, could transform the society to goodness and purity.**

 

[eldestofvic]

no, because any Jew will tell you the Law puts formidable obstacles against it to the point of nearly making it impossible.

Your point???

The law remains the law.

Take a modern example. Is the death penalty any less the death penalty in Texas or Washington or wherever simply because any lawyer worth his salt can extend it’s execution almost indefinitely? Even if juries, action groups, lib lawyers or whomever will grasp on to any given out against imposing it or executing it, the punishment remains on the books

 

[eldestofvic]

inJesus, that is denying the hospitable attitude of Islam towards adultery. The Jews had a very good law (Death). The chritians do not have any law against adultery. The Muslims have a law of flogging. So any one can judge who is right or more hospitable.

I have read the laws mentioned in the bibleOT. I find them excellent laws, even if introduced today, could transform the society to goodness and purity.

Just for the record… I’m not with this guy

 

[ralphinal]

Just for the record… I’m not with this guy

That goes without saying