Flogging adulterers and adulteresses one hundred times

[inJESUS]

Your point???

The law remains the law.

my point is exactly what i said . The Law says the punishment of a son who disobeys his parents is death. Do you know of any case where a person was killed for this reason? no, because the Talmud states: “It never happened and it never will happen.”
do you know why? because no sons disobeys? no, but because the Bible puts obstacles to applying it to the point of making it impossible. The wages of sin are death, but if the Law is to be applied as you think it is, and if it means what you think it means, am not very positive as to who will remain alive.

 

[inJESUS]

inJesus, that is denying the hospitable attitude of Islam towards adultery.

what hospitable attitude? why do you kill people accused of adultery instead of giving them chance for repentance

The Jews had a very good law (Death).

 

[ralphinal]

Is a beating or stoning a private event or do people come to watch?

Does this promote a blood-lust or violent attitude among people?

 

[eldestofvic]

my point is exactly what i said . The Law says the punishment of a son who disobeys his parents is death. Do you know of any case where a person was killed for this reason? no, because the Talmud states: “It never happened and it never will happen.”
do you know why? because no sons disobeys? no, but because the Bible puts obstacles to applying it to the point of making it impossible. The wages of sin are death, but if the Law is to be applied as you think it is, and if it means what you think it means, am not very positive as to who will remain alive.

I’m not sure how disobedient kiddies got into this argument but I’m going to stick to the premise of the thread if you don’t mind.

It is clearly obvious that the bible had not put so many barriers to the death sentence for adultery in place that it never happened. How could Jesus have been confronted with the same in John 7-8 if it was “nearly impossible”. There is recorded the case of the Priest daughter in Leviticus 21.

In fact, spring-boarding from the torah dictates of Leviticus and Numbers, the Talmud actually made it easier to convict not harder initially. It, in fact, removed the absolute rule of detection of intercourse and allowed for circumstantial evidence. And the Torah/Bible never changed its position.

It was actually only in relatively modern times that the Talmud exercised the mandate the a woman had to know that she was commiting adultery to be punished for it. Which effectively became a loophole for most women. And it was actually Roman law that stopped the practice altogether.

 

[inJESUS]

I’m not sure how disobedient kiddies got into this argument but I’m going to stick to the premise of the thread if you don’t mind.

.

of course i don’t mind, but this topic was raised because it has exactly the same punishment yet never applied which shows there is to the Law more than what it appears to be.

 

[eldestofvic]

Granted… but unless it is to be considered a joke it must retain the quality of being the “Law”.

Any lessor quality would indicate that Gd was just having a joke on everybody and that seems unlikely.

 

[paarsurrey]

The Torah does include a complete civil code for running a Jewish society. Among these regulations is the death penalty when appropriate.

Hi

I agree with you in this point; but Jesus and Mary, themselves Jews, never dictated any a complete civil code for running a Jewish society, at least I don’t see it untill he went in exile from Judea to India.

Jesus and Mary never changed the Jewish Law, they were followers of Torah/Moses.

It is a separate story that it was Paul who deviated the followers/sheep away from the Way of Jesus and Mary and changed it. Since it was only a Paul’s man-made endeavor, in my opinion; the rightful Law in vogue among the Abrahamic faith was of the Moses. It was God Allah’s mercy that it was changed for betterment with Quran.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The Torah does include a complete civil code for running a Jewish society.

Hi

If as you say **Torah has a complete civil code **of life; what penalty it has for one who steals?

Is Torah only a civil code; does not have a criminal code?

Kindly quote verses from Torah.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Originally Posted by inJESUS
no, because any Jew will tell you the Law **puts formidable obstacles **against it to the point of nearly making it impossible.

Your point???

The law remains the law.

Take a modern example. Is the death penalty any less the death penalty in Texas or Washington or wherever simply because any lawyer worth his salt can extend it’s execution almost indefinitely? Even if juries, action groups, lib lawyers or whomever will grasp on to any given out against imposing it or executing it, the punishment remains on the books

Hi

My question is the Jewish Law is, as you have stated elsewhere in this thread, is incorporated in the Torah/Moses; are the **formidable obstacles ** you mention,already incorporated in the Torah/Moses?

If not; then it is the Jews making adultration with Torah. The amendments have to be made by the original authority who made the law.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

As the Qu’ran demands a flogging rather than death, it would appear that Islam is rather more hospitable (in this highly relative comparison) wouldn’t you say?

Hi

You are positive and on right direction.

You are a good Catholic, I appreciate your above post.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

when beatings were allowed in the Ancient Jewish world, it was to be done no more than 40 times, as any beyond that could cause death. In fact, they typically did it 40 minus 1 (39) just to be safe.

Hi

When the Law was, as quoted by our friend eldestofvic, death penalty;why did the Jews tried to tamper with it? This is another case of adultry as the word suggest.

I love Jesus and Mary as I do love Buddha and Krishna

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

The fact that they (Muslim) call Paul a lier, Jesus a lier, Mary a lier, all the Apostles liers, then claim to love them (except Paul), then tell us that we should be Muslim like Jesus really bugs me.

Perhaps I am too close to the situation. I see calling Jesus and those closest to him a lying peice of trash to be insulting to me and to them.

Hi

We respect even Paul; as he is one of your religious leaders. We respect and love Catholics and it is for that that we respect him. We only sometimes say Paul was a clever person who lead the sheep astray from the shephard. We have to say that just to expose him for his wrong doings. The word lier has never been used by me for Paul even; never at all.

It is only Christians who use the word lier and they won’t even spare Jesus and Mary, as you have mentioned above.

No Muslim worth the name could ever use such words for Jesus and Mary. I think this perhaps exposes your love for Jesus and Mary, in my opinion.

We love Jesus and Mary as we do love Buddha and Krishna to stregthen peace and love in the World, so much needed.

Thanks

 

[paarsurrey]

Then what, what? All I did was point out that you had overlooked that the remedy is the same for the woman as the man.

Hi

ralphinal and others.

Please see, Quran/Islam/Muhammad treat equally and equitably men and women. As a man is required to swear four times so is the women.

Friend eldestofvic, you have got a keen observation. I appreciate your above post.

Thanks

 

[ralphinal]

Hi

We respect even Paul; as he is one of your religious leaders. We respect and love Catholics and it is for that that we respect him. We only sometimes say Paul was a clever person who lead the sheep astray from the shephard. We have to say that just to expose him for his wrong doings. The word lier has never been used by me for Paul even; never at all.

It is only Christians who use the word lier and they won’t even spare Jesus and Mary, as you have mentioned above.

No Muslim worth the name could ever use such words for Jesus and Mary. I think this perhaps exposes your love for Jesus and Mary, in my opinion.

We love Jesus and Mary as we do love Buddha and Krishna to stregthen peace and love in the World, so much needed.

Thanks

Paar, this is where I am coming from on this.

Jesus said that he would be crucified, die, and rise again.

His mother said that she saw him die and held his dead body.

His friends said that he was crucfied, died, and rose again.

Jesus said that he had been crucified, that he had died, and that he had risen.

Now, the second Muhammed said that he was killed and was not crucified, Muhammed said that all of those people were liers.

There is no way around it.

I am sorry.

 

[inJESUS]

Granted… but unless it is to be considered a joke it must retain the quality of being the “Law”.

Any lessor quality would indicate that Gd was just having a joke on everybody and that seems unlikely.

it is the Law and it was no joke, but the application of what it means in light of the Biblical obstacles is the one we are discussing.

 

[eldestofvic]

it is the Law and it was no joke, but the application of what it means in light of the Biblical obstacles is the one we are discussing.

Please reference these biblical obstacles.

 

[inJESUS]

Please reference these biblical obstacles.

this is a very broad topic. This link will help you see how capital punishment is understood:

tikkun.org/rabbi_lerner/Death%20Penalty

i quote :

a person whose disposition is cruel should be
excluded from sitting in judgment in such cases (Sanhedrin 36B). Not only
should a person’s own record be pure and righteous, but his ancestry had to
be free of blemish before he could sit on this court (Sanhedrin 36B)

remind us of Jesus’ words, doesn’t it? he who is without sin, let him throw the first stone.

I quote:

Rabbi Simeon ben Shatach witnessed
the following incident: “I saw a man chasing another man into a ruin; I ran
after him and saw a sword in his hand dripping with the other’s blood, and
the murdered man in his death agony…” Even though he was convinced of the
man’s guilt, the rabbi could not testify against him, because he did not see
the actual crime (Sanhedrin 37b).

A person wrongfully flogged for robbery can heal. A person
improperly imprisoned for murder can be exonerated and set free. But someone
put to death for a crime he/she did not commit can never be redeemed. If we
are true to our faith and our tradition, we must respond to the imperative
of its teachings and do everything we can to keep our society from
committing the ultimate of injustices: the wrongful execution of an innocent
person.

reminds us of “Killing an innocent soul is like killing all of humanity” which means that if a court, for once, kills an innocent man, it is considered a murderous court.

I find it strange that you are deviating from the Christian understanding in light of Jesus’ teachings and even from the jewish understanding that reflects Jesus’ in order to support Muhammad’s stoning and cutting hands and tearing nails when in fact neither him nor his family history are sinless. Do you think if Muhammad was present when Jesus said who is sinless let him cast the first stone, do you think Muhammad would have thrown a stone? he would have put his head in the sand.

 

[eldestofvic]

it is the Law and it was no joke, but the application of what it means in light of the Biblical obstacles is the one we are discussing.

I’ll repeat my question… please provide references to these biblical obstacles. The Sanhedrin is interpretation of the Law and application of the Law. It is not the Law. Even so, the article specifically says that disposition of the death penalty happened regularly. However, if it could not be carried out due to predescribed circumstances an equal if less immediate punishment was enacted. The example given being life imprisonment on nothing but bread and water (I wonder how long a person lasted in these conditions??). This would seem then that the rabbinical courts were simply pursuing that death by “divine agencies” hope.

While it is obvious that the Sanhedrin put a great deal of obstacles in the way of prescribing the death penalty we know that the death penalty was carried out and understood to be the appropriate punishment for certain crimes (the crucifiction of Jesus, the stoning of Phillip, as mentioned earlier the Priest’s daughter stoned to death for adultery).

What you are referencing are man-made traditional interpretations of application of the law. Now it could be said that in John 7 Jesus, was in fact, validating them or he could just as easily have been using their man-made traditions against them. In any event we must not loose sight of the fact that according to the Torah/Bible/OT the almighty Word of Gd (as we understand it)the death penalty is the fitting punishment for the crime of adultery. And Gd’s word does not change, not one iota. Furthermore from the perspective of these discussions Jesus’s dictates on this subject are irrelevant because whatever authority he has to do this and in turn forgive the woman is based on our acceptance that he is Gd. Islam does not accept this.

 

[eldestofvic]

I find it strange that you are deviating from the Christian understanding in light of Jesus’ teachings and even from the jewish understanding that reflects Jesus’ in order to support Muhammad’s stoning and cutting hands and tearing nails when in fact neither him nor his family history are sinless. Do you think if Muhammad was present when Jesus said who is sinless let him cast the first stone, do you think Muhammad would have thrown a stone? he would have put his head in the sand.

I’ll ignore the veiled ad hominem here simply to stress that I am not defending Islam. I am merely trying to couch discussions between Christianity and Islam to the singular text that is common to both.

I fully accept that Jesus is Lord and that on a philosophical level Christianity surpasses all other faiths in its discovery of the “goodness” of Gd.

 

[inJESUS]

I’ll repeat my question… please provide references to these biblical

obstacles. The Sanhedrin is interpretation of the Law and application of the Law. It is not the Law. the Jews do not believe in sola-scriptura neither do they interpret the Law in light of one single verse when it comes to the capital punishment and while the Torah sanctions capital punishment for numerous offenses, ranging from murder to intentional breaking of the Sabbath, it also recognizes the risks involved with the death penalty and immediately seeks to place limitations on its use, requiring stringent standards for its application. Therefore it is not surprising that the very first passage in the Torah dealing with capital punishment for the Jewish people states, “and the innocent and the righteous do not kill.” (Exodus 23:7).

This is one example of an obstacle, and this is why so many obstacles are used in order to ensure they are not breaking the law of not killing an innocent in order to apply the capital punishment.
Clearly, therefore, while the Torah supports the death penalty in principle, it places formidable obstacles to its implementation, and it was rarely implemented. The court would always seek ways to exonerate the defendant. If witnesses were cross-examined with questions they could not answer, the witnesses were disqualified. In addition to witnesses, the court members must be without blemish in order to have the right to kill in the name of the Law, and the accused must have the knowledge and warning ecc ecc. The Sanhedrin’s powers were tempered by “sensitivity to the importance of each soul,” created in the image of God (another obstacle) to the extent that the technical requirements for carrying out the death penalty were next to impossible to fulfill…you cannot just kill a person based on circumstancial evidences because you might end up killing an innocent soul that is why a full conviction was nearly impossible.

While it is obvious that the Sanhedrin put a great deal of obstacles in the way of prescribing the death penalty we know that the death penalty was carried out and understood to be the appropriate punishment for certain crimes (the crucifiction of Jesus, the stoning of Phillip, as mentioned earlier the Priest’s daughter stoned to death for adultery).