Flood of ‘de-baptisms’ worries European church leaders

[irishpatrick]

PARIS — A decade ago, Rene Lebouvier requested that his local Catholic church erase his name from the baptismal register. The church noted his demands on the margins of its records and the chapter was closed.

But the clergy abuse scandals rocking Europe, coupled with Pope Benedict XVI’s conservative stances on contraception, hardened Lebouvier’s views. Last October, a court in Normandy ruled in favor of his lawsuit to have his name permanently deleted from church records — making the 71-year-old retiree the first Frenchman to be officially “de-baptized.”

washingtonpost.com/national/on-faith/flood-of-de-baptisms-worries-european-church-leaders/2012/01/18/gIQACX3m8P_print.html

 

[jediliz]

you can’t be debaptized…

 

[4Squarebaby]

So how does that work exactly where Cesar gets involved? Are shadow records maintained outside of French jurisdiction should the Bishop still disagree with the civil government.

 

[Dale_M]

As the article notes, the issue has economic ramifications. Several European countries provide government support to religions on the basis of the number of adherents. In particular, Germany, Austria and Belgium were mentioned. The articles says that the de-baptism movement is strongest there.

The much lower rate of child baptisms is also of concern. In France, 50 years ago perhaps 90% of children were baptised. Now, the rate of baptism is around 33%.

 

[NeedImprovement]

As the article notes, the issue has economic ramifications. Several European countries provide government support to religions on the basis of the number of adherents. In particular, Germany, Austria and Belgium were mentioned. The articles says that the de-baptism movement is strongest there…

But just to clarify, the article was careful to point out that “Rather than requesting de-baptisms, Germans fill out government paperwork saying they no longer want to pay church taxes.” … indicating that at this point in time, debaptism (what a term :doh2: ) is a separate issue from not paying Chuch taxes - in a country where the debaptism movement is purported to be strongest - Germany

you can’t be debaptized…

Amen . No one can erase the indelible character conferred on the soul by the sacrament of Baptism.

Two of several areas where it ( having one’s written Baptismal record expunged ) could create a problem :

• If that person were to later repent and be in need of the anointing of the sick, and request the anointing of the sick. If they were a patient/resident in a health institution, and listed as something other than Catholic, with no record to confirm they had ever been baptized, and had all the appearances of not being Catholic and of not being baptized, it might well prevent them from receiving the Anointing.
• Unless it could be proven that the person who’d been “debaptized” had shown some sign of repentance before death ,Can. 1184 §1 appears to say they would also be denied an Ecclesiastical Funeral.

 

[irishpatrick]

you can’t be debaptized…

Yes, of course, one can actually be debaptized–but some think they can, and that is a disturbing reality.

 

[irishpatrick]

Yes, of course, one can actually be debaptized–but some think they can, and that is a disturbing reality.

OOOOPS…I meant:

Yes, of course, one** cannot **actually be debaptized–but some think they can, and that is a disturbing reality.

 

[_Abyssinia]

These are not just Pope Benedict’s stances on contraception etc. these are the Catholic Church’s stances, and if Rene did not agree then why was he a member of the Catholic Church in the first place?

 

[unafraid]

And, lamentably, the radicals stand in the midst of all of this “sad news”, pumping their fists in defiant celebration, as the continent, and its legacy, crumbles into ruins. Some victory. Hollow and empty.

Europe is the new, “lost sheep”, which needs our prayers desperately. It is tragic to watch a culture disintegrate while its own people applaud the disintegration of the very Church which accorded it so many blessings. It is mystifying, and very sad.

A Christocentric Europe was a light upon the nations of the earth. Its culture and spirit were vital and influencial. Now, godless Europe seems like a shadow, a dark warning, that speaks of the ruin of arrogance. It is a place that has chosen death over life.

As for these de-baptised masses, and their supposed message of defiance. I can only pity them. They kill themselve for the sake of spite. However, Christ is not so easily cast aside. I wonder how many of them, on their deathbeds, will wish to be re-baptised? Let’s hope all of them…for their own sakes.

 

[TevereNauta]

This is indeed troubling. In fact, it seems like hardly a day—or hour—goes by that another one of these awful stories about the Church surfaces: people abandoning the Church, people inciting schism within the Church, fewer parents teaching or even exposing their children to the Faith, and, worse than anything else, these awful, ghastly sex abuse scandals.

We can say that the Church has been assaulted since Day One, by Judas, and has been besieged by problems ever since. And that is all correct. After all, the Church dealt with Arian heresies for centuries at a time as Arianism, and other heresies, waxed rather than waned, and She emerged from them stronger and better able to deal with bringing the Good News to the world. And She has survived worldly threats too: barbarian invasions like the Huns, Mongols et al., the rapid growth of Islam devouring the heartland of our Faith in the Middle East and North Africa, two world wars, communism, fascism, etc.

But the devil is very clever, and I think that the Internet and Mass Media is his new method of assailing the Church, and he does so using these tools 24/7. In the 10th Century, for all the records we (don’t) have, the sex scandals in the Church may have been far worse than they are now, the difference is that now, with our interconnected world where news travels the entire globe in 2 seconds, is that the entire world is exposed to every scandal in detail, where before a horrendous scandal might never leave a village to get to another village merely three miles ‘down the road.’ I am not excusing any of the abuses, I’m just trying to understand why they are now in our face constantly.

I say all this because I expect things to get much worse and not even a little better. I think we need to prepare ourselves for growing secularism in the West, for the spread of Islam in the East, and everywhere for a new wave of mass persecutions against Christians—this is one of the reasons I think ecumenism is so important, and, perhaps, Christians being persecuted together might help in the reconciliation of our Protestant and Orthodox brothers and sisters as they may rejoin the Church.

The bright side—long view—is that, in perhaps a few hundred years, after secular Europe (and indeed the secular west) collapses much along the lines of ancient Rome, it will be the Church that once again carries civilization and Truth to the heathen peoples there. Now, I’m off to read St. Malachy’s prophecy…it seems appropriate.

 

[Tenofovir]

These are not just Pope Benedict’s stances on contraception etc. these are the Catholic Church’s stances, and if Rene did not agree then why was he a member of the Catholic Church in the first place?

He was baptised and now he unbaptised himself. He no longer agrees with them.

 

[Hokomai]

A Christocentric Europe was a light upon the nations of the earth. .

Do you really believe this Unafraid?

Blight, rather than light, would seem a better description for the peoples of the Americas (genocide, dispossession, slavery, Inquisition), Africa (slave trade, colonialism, resource theft); Asia (Opium Wars; Pacific (cultural dispossession); the Middle east (crusades) and, for that matter, peoples of Europe (Jews - pogroms; Albigensians (persecution); women (witch burnings); homosexuals (judicial murder)

 

[Tenofovir]

Do you really believe this Unafraid?

Do you believe the stuff you write?

Blight, rather than light, would seem a better description for the peoples of the Americas (genocide, dispossession, slavery, Inquisition),

All non religious. Inquisition in South America? Perhaps to some limited degree in Spanish areas. The Pope declared that South Americans have a right to their freedom and property but no-one listened. Missionaries also helped.

Africa (slave trade, colonialism, resource theft);

Combated by Christian missionaries and ultimately slavery was ended by Great Britain after pressure from Christian groups. All these excesses were non-religious. In SOUTH AFRICA for example, Mr Hokomai, it were Christian groups who pushed for equality of races. Sol Plaatjie, founder of the African National Congress (you may not know it considering you’re very Americo-centric) was educated, promoted and influenced by missionaries. The Catholic Church here always promoted equal rights too.
Slave trade, colonialism, resource theft - which probably led to Enlightenment (your Messianic Philosophy) were all secular actions.

Asia (Opium Wars; Pacific (cultural dispossession);

All non-religious. Missionaries and Christians helped saved Asians in terrible situations such as the Rape of Nanking. Opium Wars, etc were secular wars. They did not occur to spread religion.

the Middle east (crusades) and, for that matter, peoples of Europe (Jews - pogroms; Albigensians (persecution); women (witch burnings); homosexuals (judicial murder)

Google “Statute of Kalisz” friend for your pogroms of Jews, and see who it’s influenced by - a Pope, OMW!!! Note that Protestants were treated in a similar fashion.
Also witch burnings did not occur everywhere throughout Christian Europe.
Crusades were wars between two civilisations who competed for resources. The Muslims attacked Christians first, considering that Christians were there first and no Muslims were ever in Spain before they came along in a belligerent state.

And to this we look at ATHEIST murders, those are your homies my friend. I personally knew a man, he’s now dead, who lost his entire family in the Kresy region of Poland because atheist Bolsheviks came along, murdered his parents and sent the rest of his family to Siberia to die in 1939. These crimes are still denied by Russia. Such examples are very common. You can find the Black Book of Communism and find an European Parliament funded film called Soviet Story, narrated by top secular scholars and academics how the atheist, secular ideology of Marxism led to genocide. Genocide which still continues in atheist NK to this day.

But yeah selective history reading is fun.

 

[maximus]

Version:1.0 StartHTML:0000000105 EndHTML:0000005471 StartFragment:0000002637 EndFragment:0000005435

Do you believe the stuff you write?
And to this we look at ATHEIST murders, those are your homies my friend. I personally knew a man, he’s now dead, who lost his entire family in the Kresy region of Poland because atheist Bolsheviks came along, murdered his parents and sent the rest of his family to Siberia to die in 1939. These crimes are still denied by Russia. Such examples are very common. You can find the Black Book of Communism and find an European Parliament funded film called Soviet Story, narrated by top secular scholars and academics how the atheist, secular ideology of Marxism led to genocide. Genocide which still continues in atheist NK to this day.

But yeah selective history reading is fun. file:///Users/Rosemary/Library/Caches/TemporaryItems/msoclip1/01/clip_image001.gif

Good answer Tenofovir, a lot of fools out there think a Godless society leads to the advancement of man. What you get is a society so confused they do not even know how to distinguish between sexes. It’s ultimately a philosophy of self-annihilation, which end up being trying to make those who refuse to go along with the lunacy become subjected to it or terminated by it. Real history is a crucial to society, bad history like the one being disseminated in our world is flat out destructive.

God Bless

 

[Hokomai]

Do you believe the stuff you write?

Yes, and so should you, because it is factual or reasoned. Your response to my post assumes I have a series of opinions which I do not have, and proceeds to criticise them. This is the ‘straw man’ fallacy of argument. You use it a lot. It obscures the truth, rather than elucidating it. You should consider, instead, direct engagement with the argument and facts I have actually put forward. I am always willing to change my mind, since I try to hold nothing as a ‘belief’, but only as a conclusion. So I am an excellent target for anyone who wants to advance their cause.

 

[Tenofovir]

Yes, and so should you, because it is factual or reasoned.

Your facts are wrong and your conclusions are biased by your hate of religion.

Your response to my post assumes I have a series of opinions which I do not have, and proceeds to criticise them.

Which follows from what you’ve said. You are now being disingenuous.

This is the ‘straw man’ fallacy of argument.

You don’t seem to know what a straw man argument is.

You use it a lot. It obscures the truth, rather than elucidating it.

Explain the straw man.

You should consider, instead, direct engagement with the argument and facts I have actually put forward.

I have. You said Christian Europe abused people through colonial wars, opium wars, slavery etc. as if those things originated in Christianity. But the fact is that slavery, abuse, wars, are common throughout history, especially in atheist nations, and even more so. Christians when acting through Sublimus Dei or Statute of Kalisz were actually amazingly progressive, tolerant and compassionate.

I am always willing to change my mind, since I try to hold nothing as a ‘belief’, but only as a conclusion. So I am an excellent target for anyone who wants to advance their cause.

The fact that you’re willing to change common definitions of words (eg belief) tells me you are a fan of sophistry.

1
: a state or habit of mind in which trust or confidence is placed in some person or thing
2
: something believed; especially : a tenet or body of tenets held by a group
3
**: conviction of the truth of some statement or the reality of some being or phenomenon especially when based on examination of evidence **

merriam-webster.com/dictionary/belief

We use “belief” in science a lot. It’s synonymous with a reasoned response. Especially when in science all are arguments are always tentative. In terms of history we have a less tentative approach and since your argument was historical and plainly WRONG it’s also fair to use believe. You’re equivocating on “belief” as belief in authority of a “cleric” vs belief as conviction of truth based on examination of evidence. In other words you always assume defn 1 above while I use believe as defn 3, especially when arguing history.

 

[Veridical16]

Why should they be worried? It serves as more motivation, to roll up their sleeves and get to work on living the faith!
.

 

[NeedImprovement]

Some of the posts by the poster who appears to have inflamed the passions on this thread , have, on occasion, made me think from time to time. The same can’t be said for the (ahem) contributions that poster has made on this thread in particular.

Having a close priest friend who was my chaplain for 4 years and my spiritual director for over 10 years, and who spent close to 30 years in Africa as a missionary, and who was an associate of Father Guy Pinard, M.Afr., , I must remark that I find the comments on Africa posted in post # 12 to be a personal insult to me ; unnecessary as those comments are , they do appear to confirm what TevereNauta points out about attacks on the internet.

In light of the bombing attacks on our Catholic brothers and sisters in Nigeria on Christmas day , and that these same type of attacks occured on Christmas eve a year prior to the most recent attacks, I find the comments in post # 12 to be insensitive and in extremely poor taste.

To anyone who really feels a deep-seated need to come to CAF and diss the Catholic Church by pumping out the same recycled grandiloquence , could you at least try to improve your aim a little ?

IOW : If you’re intent on spewing anti-Catholic rhetoric here , could you at least please try to not spit on the graves of contemporary Catholic martyrs while you’re doing it ?

 

[Tenofovir]

Some of the posts by the poster who appears to have inflamed the passions on this thread , have, on occasion, made me think from time to time. The same can’t be said for the (ahem) contributions that poster has made on this thread in particular.

Having a close priest friend who was my chaplain for 4 years and my spiritual director for over 10 years, and who spent close to 30 years in Africa as a missionary, and who was an associate of Father Guy Pinard, M.Afr., , I must remark that I find the comments on Africa posted in post # 12 to be a personal insult to me ; unnecessary as those comments are , they do appear to confirm what TevereNauta points out about attacks on the internet.

In light of the bombing attacks on our Catholic brothers and sisters in Nigeria on Christmas day , and that these same type of attacks occured on Christmas eve a year prior to the most recent attacks, I find the comments in post # 12 to be insensitive and in extremely poor taste.

To anyone who really feels a deep-seated need to come to CAF and diss the Catholic Church by pumping out the same recycled grandiloquence , could you at least try to improve your aim a little ?

IOW : If you’re intent on spewing anti-Catholic rhetoric here , could you at least please try to not spit on the graves of contemporary Catholic martyrs while you’re doing it ?

Dude, some people don’t care that they attack others and spit on peoples’ graves. They think it’s okay to say anything in their quest for “truth”.
Secondly, some people have a very Eurocentric/Americo-centric view of things. For them what happens in their country or state is the end all and be all of everything.
They lack a global perspective.

Everything else becomes abstract. One uses buzzwords such as “pogrom” and “exploitation” yet one ignores that everyone has been doing pogroms and exploitations since recorded history began, and that Jews were safe since 1200s in at least some parts of Catholic Europe and that Churches opposed colonialism, imperialism and racism in Africa and elsewhere; and such ideals as slavery, racism, etc were virtually awlays secular ideals. Yes the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa helped support apartheid but they were against unprovoked violence to African natives and they apologised for it, but the Anglican, Methodist, Catholic, and other Churches opposed it. We have Anglican Arch Bishop Desmond Tutu here as on beacon of the anti-apartheid struggle. He got that ideal from Christianity.

 

[damian_clarke]

Most atheist propaganda is rather hysterical and is nothing more than traditional anti-Catholic mythology. The problem is that it is like Goebbles big lie. It is big and it is repeated endlessly until it becomes fact.
The other old chestnut is how the Christians of Alexandra murdered Hypathia. That has also been taken so out of context as to be meaningless. The slave trade in Africa was opposed by men and women of the cloth. The Native Americans were protected by the missionaries who said they had souls and were therrfore fully human beings. When it suits atheists apologists then suddenly the Churhc is held accountable for the tribulations induced by colonialist expansion.